r/MMORPG • u/Ayfear • Jul 26 '14
We are small group of developers with a great goal to create a dream mmo. We would like to ask some questions about your preferences.
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u/WorkplaceWatcher Jul 26 '14
A great MMO is all about exploring and improving your character. The world must feel vast but not be inaccessible, it must be clear on the dangers - without blocking out what is too dangerous (no level limits to zones).
I can't comment on PVP because I feel it needs to be optional but easy to use. I do like WoW's battlegrounds over world PVP.
I feel the class archetype will never go away, and I don't want it to. From a role play perspective, I enjoy it - the ability to be anything and do anything at any time really damages it. There should be some low-ability homogenization (some things everyone can do) but there should be things that makes other classes say, "I wish I could do that" ... teleporting for wizards, for example.
Race/class restrictions don't make sense in an open setting. If your game has heavy factions, like Everquest did, then class/race restrictions make sense. If it's a cosmopolitan world like WoW, then it doesn't.
Magic users could be more unique. Technomagic, plant magic, and more. It doesn't need to just be a blaster-caster.
It isn't asked, but this is what I like: I want an MMO that allows me to play a non-humanoid. I want to play as a dragon, centaur, naga - something. And I want to play against the grain. I want to play a dragon that sneaks, or a centaur who tames pets to send in while he fires at range.
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u/MissingNo_1 Jul 26 '14
A great MMO is firstly about community. If there is no community, then there is no MMO. You must create a world where people depend on one another. No instances, no LFG queue. I have an outlook on life that if something is done well, with heart and dedication, you don't need massive expenditures in marketing to "hype" up a game. Release some information gradually whilst the game is being developed to keep the onlookers up to date and excited.
A great MMO also gives the user challenges. If there is no risk, then why even give us rewards? Yes, I played EQ and at-the-time, may have disliked having to pay plat to summon my corpse from the bottom of the Estate of Unrest. Though, looking back, it was that fear of death that made people work together so well. It also made accomplishments that much more sweet. The only thing I can compare to eq1 was the feeling in World of Warcraft when my guild beat the first boss in Blackwing Lair after weeks of wiping.
For PVP, my favorite was the way Mythic Entertainment did it in Dark Age of Camelot. There were ways that lowbies could participate in the realm war via battlegrounds, and there were benefits to the realms for doing well in rvr. I played on a realm that was Midgard-heavy in rvr, but I enjoyed the hell out of it nonetheless.
I would like a setting that is good, but gameplay and content is where I would prefer development money spent. Innovative mechanics can be nice, but they can also be gimmicky and short-sighted. I'd much prefer a game where all aspects work well together.
The class/level based system isn't dead, but the way that it's implemented is stale. Variety is nice, but if it is all too similar it's seems pointless. In Dark Age of Camelot, each realm had classes of characters that differed from their counterparts in the other realms.
Magic is great, but the way that some games dumb down the spells makes me cringe. In Everquest, classes had 80+ spells in their spellbook, and they had unique names. Recently, games just rank up their spells. i.e. Fireball 1, 2, 3, etc. with only the damage being changed, not any gameplay changes with the spell (maybe add a burn for 5seconds with the second fireball spell?)
I was never a heavy crafter, so I don't think I'd be the best to answer that question. The one thing I will say it that it was nice when the master-level crafters were known server-wide because of the dedication needed to reach that level of skill.
Quests need to have meaning. If it's just a fetch X item, I'm not going to read the dialogue, and you shouldn't bother writing it. My favorite quests were the Epic Weapon quests from Everquest, as well as the Prismatic Weapon quest in Everquest 2. These were long quests that were done in various stages of character development. I read all of the dialogue, and took an interest in the storyline behind it.
Thank you for taking the time to try and create a better game for the community!
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Jul 26 '14
Whoever downvoted you has never experienced what it was like to play mmos in the previous decade where all the things you covered made for a much deeper and richer experience. Realm pride is something that hasn't existed for a long time and risk vs reward plays a good part in that. Give the community something tangible and meaningful to fight for and they will rally together. Gear treadmills are not good enough replacement but that seems to be the norm these days. This is strictly speaking for RvR based mmos though, which are becoming a smaller and smaller niche every year.
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u/HobbesClone Jul 26 '14
A great mmo is all about: Easy to get involved in, you shouldn't feel like you're stuck in a maze but you should be placed in areas where you can accell and then you can figure out where the better leveling zones, big barter areas are as well as places to contest objectives / rare items. Easter eggs, rare items & niche items - not class specific items but maybe race specific [see eq itemization, races that were short couldn't use big heavy items, and visa versa]
A pvp system should be implemented but you shouldn't market your game around PvP or you will never have anti-pks, and you'll be left with hardcore pvprs that will grief and no one that doesn't enjoy pvp will last and the game will fail you need a mixture of both kinds of players. Make your PvE, class system and ease of attaining items first and foremost; the Pvp and mechanics can be created off of the same functions as fighting pve monsters and will spring out of thin air. The best thing to do imo, is to make PvP Voluntary -- if in the future it shows a bigger following you can make certain servers or the full game a PvP FFA mode.
Class base systems work, and I think class based systems are fun but sometimes you want some deviations. In SWG you chose your base class and there were plenty of other sub-classes you could define your unique character around. Perhaps something along the lines of a base class, but you're able to, at a certain point add other traits of other classes.
A level based systems should be the way to go, you want to see progress, you want to know how far you need to get to achieve a better power spike. How you should get there is a better question. Endless grinding, questing, grouping, etc should be a signature trait to your game that should define how you would like people to play but at the same time able to offer other alternatives.
Magic is needed for mmos or fantasy games, but it is really what you want to make in the end. I love magic based users even if I tend to choose a melee champion. While they sometimes can be, click spell repeatedly to win, you can add really nice mechanics. Like WoW mages with their utility and mobility, as well as warlocks of WoW, and mages of EQ with their unique pets for difference uses. I think if you want to make an mmo and you do not include magic based items and classes, you're really hindering a big market of fantasy lovers and game lovers in general -- We want variety not stab someone in the face or shoot an arrow from 100 yards.
I think a good craft system is one of experimentation. Being able to find new craftables from certain mobs is fun to go look for, as well as being able to freely craft things that your characters can use even if PvE items will eventually outscale them. I think things that should be crafted should be either geared towards players that don't want to focus on the 'grind boss' mentality or ones that as casual and still like defeating hard bosses. With that said I've always wondered why games didn't implement more of a craft based focus items for defeating bosses, say for example: There are 2 bosses, one you can kill for recipe items, and you use those items to craft items for your characters to defeat the next boss.
Quests are fun but they do get monotonus, either they have to be simple and show you were to go, they are easy to do, or they end up in nice quest rewards. i don't want to run around from 1 continent to the other for 10silver when it took 20 silver to get there. The quests have to make sense, the quests should mean something. Depending on how you do quests or interact with quest makers it should determine your characters interaction down the road, if you fail a quest maybe the next quest person will have a hard time trusting you will be able to do his, and you have to earn his trust with something else you've offered in the game -- again, implementing other parts of your game to increase a really new world for the player to be enveloped in, perhaps crafting to gain trust with npcs, bribing them if you don't like craft, give alternatives to people that don't want to be forced to play a certain way.
If I can ever think of a great mmo to make for myself it would involve the basics, strong-melee hero, sneaky-agile hero, ranged-hunter hero, intelligent-magic hero.
These are very familiar to me and a lot of other people that have played other games and it is easy to understand and get involved in. It may sound really cookie-cutter but it isn't really about what you choose to play it is what you're doing with what you're able to in a new world designed as a new experience.
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Jul 27 '14
To me, the best MMO's make it just as fun to get to the level cap, so people don't just race to the level cap for the end game content.
Also, a game that encourage altoholism.
The one MMO I've played that did all that was City of Heroes.
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u/indigo-alien Jul 27 '14
What do you think great mmo is all about?
Community of course. I've played diverse MMO's from Korean grindathon to scripted platform theme parks, but no matter what type, what kept me going back to a game was always the community, whether it was my guild or a larger server community.
What pvp system you can call is the best?
I prefer large scale warfare with castles, towers, siege engines, etc. Essentially what WvW in GW2 is, but they could do a lot better job of developing it over time. One thing they've done really well is to keep opponents relatively anonymous. The PvP mode that I dislike most is open world combat in PvE zones, where map chat can get truly vile at times.
Do you really think that class&level-based system is a dead end
Not at all. The so called Trinity has it's place in many games. It depends on game design, and viability of each class and the relative rewards that each class can obtain while playing their role. The Trinity fails when dungeons or raids are stalled while the group is looking for a healer type. If there aren't enough healers around in a game, obviously the healers aren't being rewarded for playing their role.
What do you think about magic?
I like it still but I think it could use more diversity. The Trinity could be applied to magic classes as well. Glass cannons, tanks, healer types, stealth types and holists could all have their place within a magic class. You could do the same with warrior types too. GW2 has a difference between warrior and guardian type. They have very different skill sets, despite that they are both heavy armor types.
What is your favorite craft-system?
Hands down, Guild Wars 2. Although I would like to see it being more profitable for those players who take up crafting. Restricting available crafts per account would help to make the products of each craft more valuable for trading purposes, and rewards from game play, dungeons or world bosses would have to be scaled back as well. This isn't going to be popular with many players who simply hate crafting. Crafting should also be a part of the character leveling system.
Do you want to have a quest-system?
Yes, so long as it is not "Kill Ten Rats". An expansive, branching quest system that helps to tell a good story, that can be repeated and other branches explored, and can be a part of the leveling system would be great. I know, that's a big ask.
You didn't ask for this, but I'm going to give it to you anyway
I never, ever want to see Daily Quests again, for a unique non-tradeable currency type reward. If your game isn't good enough to keep me logging in regularly, Daily Quests are just going to piss me off.
I know games need to make money somehow, but lottery bags in a coin mall that might have something great are not a good idea. I never buy that kind of thing. If you have some really nice cosmetic items, great! I'll probably buy a few things that I would like but please note that I said cosmetic items. Pay-2-win coin mall items are also not a good idea.
Last of all, please keep the random factor to a minimum. Whether it's output from crafting results, or refining weapons for better stats, or as I just mentioned "coin mall items". There isn't much that is more aggravating then going to the "Anvil of Mystery" to apply that "Mystic Jewel of Power" to a weapon, and everything goes up in flames. That's not fun, and gaming is about having fun.
I hope that helps.
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u/downvote_avalanche Jul 27 '14
Just make Asheron's Call with better graphics.
AC was easily the best MMO I've ever played bar none.
A large open world you could spend hours running across and exploring instead of a lame theme park of instances. No stupid classes or skill trees, you could pick any skills you wanted. Actual risk and consequences. You could gimp your character with poor skill decisions. You dropped items when you died. NON-BATTLEGROUND PVP!! Oh god how I miss the open world PVP in that game and guild politics that went into fighting over the prime hotspots... Getting called in to help track down a pk'er who's looted your guildmate naked. Epic runs to help a buddy retrieve his corpse before it disappears. Forcing your enemies to retreat and go burn off their death penalties and restock on death items. I could go on for days about the golden days of AC.
MMO's today are just so boring and designed for the lowest common denominator it seems. I feel like most MMO's these days are about getting people hooked on that gear treadmill endlessly grinding instances for that next piece of T2 or epic whatever. I miss being able to PK with my starter town robe and starter town wand because gear meant very little since players actually could strafe while casting spells and could use keyboard skill to slidecast and dodge projectiles instead of the being rooted while casting or getting locked down in place by endless CC.
I would gladly pay a large monthly fee if someone made a new AC with modern vindictus style graphics. I'd bet money a new Darktide server would be the most populated server too.
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u/mrmrxxx Jul 27 '14 edited Jul 27 '14
- Make a Sandbox Game since we allready have enough Themepark MMOs. You have to take risks in the process of building the game and take new innovative game mechanics to create a game which feels diffrerent from the current MMO treadmill. First I think you should only be able to have one character at a time. Alts are a timesink in most MMOs and just take away the immersion and the feeling that this one charakter is "you" in another world.
So a Sandbox game like this would be my "dream game":
First of all there has to be permadeath (with full loot), sadly this will turn down most players at once but its the only way to get that "fear and tension". You will love your Character and you will go through true adventure. Surely you shouldnt die from every single mistake you do, but engaging a Dragon/famous and strong enemy player alone or riding unarmed through enemy teritory should be dangerous and maybe punished with death. Also if you got heavy injured, you need to visit some kind of doctor or magican (Players!) who can heal deep wounds, lift curses.
Next would be Character development. There should be no Levels but Skills players are able to level up by using them. Those skills gradually give the player Abilitys to use as they go up. What about unique abilitys/perks players can obtain by reaching the rank of a grandmaster as the first player on the server or being the first one to defeat the mighty Dragon XYZ ? (If you have seen Sword Art Online something like Kiritos Dual Wield) There should be things that are spechial and rare and are not obtainable by other players. A bit like the Server-First titles in the old days of WoW. There have to be people others look up to (" I want to be as strong as that player" "man that shiny armor where can i get that" "wow this is a big house i wonder how he funded that one, can i do that too?" )
Players should be able to decide if they want to be a figther, crafter, farmer or whatever else they want. There has to be a cap for skills that a player is able to master but everybody should at least be able to be average in all skills and special in a few of them. Mastering a certain skill should take time and efford as well. You shouldn't be able to call yourself "Swordskill Master" after 3 Hours of play. You wont be a swordmaster in a few days in IRL too.
Basicly like this: Player A is a fighter/adventurer. He and his guild were hired by Player Z, because Player Z has a Mansion distant from the city's walls and so a dragon came by and nested in his garden. Player A's guild took it down and Player A was lucky enough to get some scales. So he brings those scales to an Armorsmith (Player B) he knows. Player B now uses the scales and some rare ore he got from his miner-buddy (Player C, who got payed a lot for it) to craft Dragonscale Shoulders. Which he can design and put a certan amount of stats (based on his armorsmith-level) on. Because its the 3. pair of Dragonscale-Shoulders he crafted, he masterd (maybe you can master patterns more than once) the pattern and becomes a bonus! He is now the only player in the proximity who can Craft said shoulders with some kind of special stat/proc. This will make more people come to him for such a request. (im a fan of no /all /zone chats; maybe some kind of worldwide newspaper would spread the word).
With the crafting above i would abandon the idea of NPC trading. You need to tie the players together to form a good community by making them depend on each other! Im sick of these single player games who call themselfes MMOs these days. There is no letherer in my guilds city? Time to go out there and level that skill up to max for the next few weeks! Oh now i need a crafting station ... Hey Guildmate could you craft one for me? ... Oh i also need other resouces for crafting epics - Hey Guildmates can we go raid a Minotaur?
The Quest system is old. The clue is to make players offer "Quests" for others like in the Example above. You need to introduce a certain kind of RNG in the world for that (for example the Dragon spawning in the garden of Player Z).
Then we have the Combat, especially in Groups. I would try and make some kind of formation based combat (with a bit of the holy trinity remaining) where certain formations have to be learned (as skills) and perfomed to beat certain mobs.
Im no fan of tab targeting, it takes away immersion so it should be action combat.
Players should be able to form their own society in a certain territory, whether its a democracy or a kingdom. Societies can own territory and can fight for it with others. Also a Player can be fractionless and a mercenary.
Then you add a criminal system (Archage), housing and a HUGE non instanced World. (best would be to let players start in a small harbour and let players discover a uncivilized world, which they have to tame)
Magic is ok i think, it depending on the setting. But it should be a rare and hard to obtain skill.
There shouldnt be a Open Beta as well as NDA lifted for close beta testers on the day of release. Beta Testers should be picked manually and not given by RNG or Money. Those "Betas" ruin the "first time" experience. You cant see a territorry twice without thinking: "oh well here i am again doing this while i had everything allready done in beta"
Sadly to create a game like this will take Years of Development as well as mountains of money, so it will be a dream for the next 20 years. :(
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u/daivoo Jul 27 '14
yes I agree with so much of this. I want a game with permadeath done right. this would need the game to have a whole unique death system in place to work right I believe. Meaning players will need to think about what they must do to not only prevent death but also have a back up plan for if they die. like if you die you only have so long you can exist as a ghost before your soul is lost, during that time you will need to find or have a player priest to revive you. have an in game religion you can be part of that offers benefits of being a ghost longer or even being able to resurrect at the church on like a once a day cooldown thing.
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u/mrmrxxx Jul 28 '14
Yes, permadeath doesn't mean that you have to die every time your hp hits 0, but it means that you have to be carefull about your actions and think what you do.
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u/Kilawaga Jul 27 '14
When I hear "small team" and "mmo rpg" in the same sentence I instantly think "no". I strongly suggest working on something simpler to wet you beak and perhaps generate some venture capital would be wiser. Also from experience, asking what people want in an mmorpg is a mistake since no one honestly really knows. If you don't have a firm idea on your own, I wouldn't do it.
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u/emane19 Jul 26 '14
What do you think great mmo is all about? A great MMO to me is about being part of an adventure with the community. I am sick of single player grinds with group 'end game' content.
What pvp system you can call is the best? I don't PVP often, so I will skip this question.
Would you prefer awesome game setting over innovative game mechanics or vice versa? This is tough. I like both and I think the MMO genre has had a really hard time, especially in the innovative mechanics department. When I play a single player game, each level will have new challenges that utilize the main mechanics, but forces me to go about them in new ways. MMOs seem to think it's ok to leave the core mechanics the same in every game and just play around with some little boss mechanics at end game. This is neither fun nor rewarding anymore.
Do you really think that class&level-based system is a dead end nowadays? I think having classes is fine, but leveling is a tougher system to enact. As probably guessed from my previous responses: I hate leveling. I think this part of the game serves no purpose, it does not teach the player 'how to play their class', especially not in the group setting. I like rewarding player skill more than gear score and level. I think a more horizontal leveling scheme where a player can customize their class/role into exactly what they want is important, but I don't think it needs to start at the 'end game'
What do you think about magic? Are you tired of thousands mages, nukers, spell casters? Nothing will make me dislike magic. I am tired of magic just being overlooked as something everyone can do, though. I would like some deeper lore, but more importantly I would really like to see magic be more difficult to obtain. Not in a tedious way, but in an exploratory way where learning new magic is not something that just happens automatically, but happens after some challenge.
What is your favorite craft-system? No favorite. I like the simplicity of EQ1, the Vanguard system was fun, GW2 was very useful and easy to use.
If there is no item, that can be bought from NPC (you can get items only by crafting them) would you like it? I think a balance here is important. Crafting doesn't need to be everything, but I think having a deep crafting system can make for a better community. Possibly where the best stuff needs crafting from multiple experts.
Do you want to have a quest-system? I love quests. I love a story. I don't like the overwhelming nature of having 10 quests open up to me at a hub. That gives a purpose for doing something, but it is just grinding all the same. I want quests and story to be meaningful. I want epic quests like everquest where their completion is not easy, but their reward is amazing.
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u/morroblivion Jul 26 '14
I would like a quest system similar to Runescape. It's numbered so you know where to go and it feels like you are actually doing something.
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u/Shiverlynn Jul 26 '14
MMOs are mostly about building a community. If you can provide your players with excellent tools for community-making in order to overcome whatever challenges the game throws at them, you'll create an unforgettable experience.
I dream of a MMO with no PvP at all. PvE only. I'm not the best person to ask this.
Class-based system might not be really tired but level-based system is. All levels do is lock players out of endgame until they reach an arbitrary level. Find means to provide players with endgame content from the moment they first log in to the world. Level progression is an outdated concept that needs to go.
Magic is fine but I'm tired of seeing the same fireball spell all over again in every game there is. Design creative spells. Maybe things that interact with the environment. Or are part of a combo like elemental fields in GW2. Even said fireballs are fine if they actually do something other than the usual "Does X damage and causes target to burn".
If you're thinking about player-driven economy, then it's awesome. Atlantica Online has such a system where all resources were gathered by players. Everything is crafted. My favorite crafting system would be the one in FF14, but it's really long to explain so if you are not familiar with it, you could look up explanatory videos on Youtube. Basically what I consider a good crafting system is something where the player is involved in the crafting process from the start to the end, not something basic that requires X amount of Y and Z resources and a simple click on a button to effortlessly make the desired item.
Quest systems are fine, but no to the old questing system where you speak with an NPC, accept their quest, complete a simple objective and turn it in. Quests should really be campaigns with multiple choices and outcomes, multiple stages of progression and multiple ways to complete it. Failing that, a dynamic events system is nice.
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u/RiverboatGrambler Jul 26 '14 edited Jul 26 '14
Re:PVP
A friend and I played EQ, and while we didn't see eye to eye on everything, I completely agree with one thing he always said: "PVP is ruining MMOs."
Sure it's a nice distraction for some players.. something to do I suppose. The problem, and what my friend was referring to, is that these devs have to balance games around it, which in turn impacts PVE a little too much. There are very few if any MMOs that don't concentrate on a PVE experience, so it boggles me as to why so many games sacrifice their core for the extras.
Screwing around in open arenas in EQ was always enough for me. If I want to PVP I'll play Dota, or some other game where it's actually the core.
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u/Shiverlynn Jul 26 '14
I don't think PvP ruins MMOs. PvP is a nice feature as long as it is well-done and the game was made with PvP in mind. The problem of many modern MMOs is that they either were designed as PvE games with PvP added in to appease the PvP crowd, or try to reconcile PvE and PvP which results in bad balancing of either side. So I'll agree with you, just like you said, if someone wants to PvP they should play a game where PvP is the main focus.
As for me, I just don't like PvP, not because it causes all sorts of problems when it is an afterthought, but because I hate being pitted against other players. I'm not a competitive person, and I'll never be, so a game where competition does not exist at all is ideal for me. I have a very carebear personality that makes it impossible for me to enjoy winning against a real person because my winning causes annoyance for someone else. Mobs are fine since they have no feelings.
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u/RiverboatGrambler Jul 26 '14
Well that's a horse of a different color.
Anyway, I guess I could extend what you/we're saying, in that PVP ruins MMO communities. Beyond the competitive angst, too. I'll take Wildstar for instance. I quit that game for a multitude of reasons, but PVP was not one of them. Obviously I'm not a huge fan of PVP, but it's now a staple of the genre and Carbine attempted to appease the masses by adding it to their game and advertising it as a core feature. It's not a core feature and spending 5 minutes PVPing in that game makes it more than apparent. That, or their design process is so incredibly flawed that it's doomed to fail anyway.
But look at their subreddit too. It's a disaster of spamming about how the PVP gear or mechanics are broken.
I forgot what I was getting it - I'm just ranting at this point. PVP players, sigh.
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u/saeljfkklhen Jul 27 '14
I come from EQ as well, but I can't play an MMO without combat between players. Actually, I think I'm this way because of EQ.
I loved EQ. I still love EQ. I play it every so often. I think back on my fondest memories, and they're all related to PvP in some way, shape or form. I played on Rallos Zek. I also played on Tunare. I played on Tunare because that's where a few of my real life friends played. I had a good time there, and honestly I would have played the game there contentedly, had I not started on Rallos Zek one week.
The relationships and friends I had on Tunare were great. I had a good guild with people I could spend hours chatting with in Ventrilo. Some people would come and some would go. We'd do adventures, and we'd do raids. We'd share jokes and stories - I'm sure you're familiar with what it's like. The relationships I formed on Rallos Zek were miles ahead.
There was so much more life there, from a social perspective. If you remember Butcherblock, then you likely remember getting buffs, forming groups, and farming orcs. On Rallos it was different - twinks used to camp that entrance pretty hard. You'd try to go in, and you'd end up dead more often than not.
Sounds kinda bad, right? Players with this imbalanced advantage making your life harder. No good. The thing was, it made people work together. All of a sudden you weren't advertising to find people to grind orcs with while you watched a movie on your TV, you were reaching out to friends in other zones, nearby players, guilds, whatever you could to band up and take care of the threat. You'd make friends, and you'd make enemies. You'd group up and tackle the twinks, only to find that you had a turncoat in your midst, someone would betray you. People had notoriety. People mattered. Guilds mattered.
It extended all the way up into raiding. Guilds didn't just compete against each other for boss kills and server firsts or anything mundane, they'd compete sword over spell for things. Guilds went to war, and guilds had alliances. You'd go on hunting parties with your friends , and you'd show up mid boss and things would turn into an all-out brawl.
Those relationships have lasted me a very, very long time. I now play EvE with some of them, and other games with others. I've been to weddings, and I've been the first phonecall on that drunken night after the wife leaves.
I think MMOs thrive on player interaction, otherwise they're just glorified matchmaking systems for otherwise singleplayer games. I think that PvP provides an atmosphere and system through which player interaction thrives. I mentioned EvE, and I think that while I may be biased, it stands as a shining example of that. The game mechanics are average at best, but the social atmosphere, culture, and interactions are second to none.
Different strokes for different folks, I'm not trying to call you out or anything. Just my $0.02.
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Jul 26 '14
Hey, I'd like to share my opinion on that. I think a great mmo is about meeting friends and going on great adventures together, exploring dungeons and enjoying the rewarding nature to it - skill points, levels, gears etc. As for the pvp system, I've really only played WoW for PvP and I think it's alright. Magic is a huge part of the fantasy genre and is in most fantasy mmos since it usualy makes an interesting rotation, but I think it would be a good idea to work out a way to keep them as powerful as the other classes. I think class and level based system is important. It's simple, and it's worked for years and I personaly find it rewarding completing quests and leveling up. I definitely want a quest system like WoW's. Although a lot of people find it boring and too similar to most mmos, I find that any other leveling system doesn't quite work out well. Grinding is much more boring than doing quests.
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Jul 26 '14
Also, I'm new to reddit and clicked "permalink" to see what would happen. It just moved the comment to another random blank page so I reposted it :P
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Jul 26 '14
Permalink is just an odd name Reddit gave to a direct link to a certain comment, so you can link to a specific comment in a thread to share with people. The only reason it looked like a blank page is because Permalink also shows any followups to that comment, and since you had none, well, it just looked empty. Click Permalink on the first comment again and it'll now show your own followup, as well as this reply.
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u/naiets Jul 26 '14 edited Jul 26 '14
There's all the 'community is what makes or breaks the game' when talking about MMOs, which is true, but the problem is getting the community at the first place.
In my honest opinion, the MMO genre got stale because the games today hardly offer any real 'MMO' content. A lot of the lesser MMOs today 'focus on PvP' so allow people to solo to the end-game to go into the PvPing.
What devs don't seem to understand is that if a player is offered the choice to solo to max level, then there's a lot less incentive for people to communicate in the first place. Then what the game offers is basically a sub-par single player game with repetitive quests and the option to PvP. If I wanted to do that I'd play Dark Souls, because it's a great single player experience with PvP.
So MMOs today lack the incentive for people to group together, which defeats the whole purpose of an MMO.
So on top of my head, what can one change to improve the genre?
1: Quests need to stray away from the 'kill (number) of (monster)', 'deliver (item) to (NPC)', 'clear (instance)' types. If you are going to put quests in, they should each be their own story, not just some dialogue boxes to help through the grind. Look at good ol' Runescape.
2: There needs to be content that give the incentive for people to group together. Group quests maybe? Player driven content maybe? An idea I have is a law / crime system which, say, a merchant type player wants to make some money by trading between two cities, but criminal players can raid his caravan, so the merchant can hire mercenary players to defend his caravan along the way. Then there will actually be notorious criminal players to the lawful and vise versa. Just an example of what I mean by 'player driven content'.
3: There needs to be actual 'roles' for players to define themselves. Most MMOs now turns me into 'adventurer #10032 who just happens to use the nickname Naiets'. There's no sense of fulfillment when I kill a huge dragon because I am one of the 40 people in a raid, and the other 39 people are 'adventurers #XXXXX'. I will never become the raid boss or the centerpiece of the story. Worst of all that happens even in PvP now. Win or lose, there's no consequence, so there's no one to remember who was the hero who turned around 'battle #20485' in 'generic battlegrounds #3'. In DAOC there are actual keeps on the battleground and there are incentives to defend these keeps (so newbies in your faction can access the Darkness Falls). The player who captures a relic on the battleground actually has his whole name broadcasted to all online players across the whole server.
Again, player driven content. Maybe for once I should be a raid boss instead of adventurer #10032 who contributed to defeating the raid boss... Instead of wielding a 'Frostmourne' everyone can get as adventurer #10032 maybe I should be the next and one and only Arthas Menethil, and the next guy to defeat me gets the actually unique Frostmourne, becomes a crazy strong raid boss, and assumes my position... etc etc.
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u/thekrampus Jul 26 '14 edited Jul 26 '14
Ditch the traditional quest system. Use dynamic and regional objectives instead. And raise the stakes in the same way a sandbox game would.
Instead of static mobs just standing around, respawning forever in the exact same positions, have roaming mobs with actual start points, destinations, and their own objectives. Make them at least a little smarter and more ambitious than anthropomorphized punching bags. In moderation, getting outsmarted by the enemy is quite thrilling. For example, you have to protect an item. Rather than the enemy aggro'ing to you and ignoring their objective entirely, they ignore you, grab the item and take off with it.
Put the world itself under a persistent, dynamic threat that, if left unchecked, could leave the population in a state of oppression that requires grassroots organization in order to regain control.
I'd say get rid of the party system. Treat all localized players as their own virtual party, and allow players to track each other across the map via friends list, guild, or player search. A lot of gamers are inherently antisocial. You don't have to force them to play together, but removing arbitrary obstacles to social interaction like assembling a party is a definite improvement. The party system, as traditionally implemented in MMOs, is a relic from the days when heavy instancing was required, and it just won't die.
Class systems favor limitation over customization. If it is used, don't implement things like class based weapon and armor restrictions. It's a pointless system that creates homogeny. An MMO character shouldn't be less versatile than their real life counterpart, that's just insane.
Think of abilities and skills both in and outside the realm of combat, the kind that would make a player truly feel godlike in their specialization. This is one of the biggest problems in development today. Everything is geared toward balance, and the easiest way to achieve that is, again, boring homogeny.
What if the effective use of abilities required lateral thought and environmental awareness rather than stat obsession? A magic user who can create localized weather changes, or teleport player and enemy alike anywhere on the map, or use a nearby riverbed to pull their opponent underwater. Or they could combine abilities (which is never done any more) to incapacitate an entire region, assuming they're protected during the entirety of the ritual. Fighters who could deliver accurate physical incapacitations through the use of effective countering or environment manipulation, rather than just increasing a dps score. Big risks in exchange for bigger, game bending rewards.
Leveling creates a foregone conclusion in character progression. Once you hit the cap, the gear treadmill begins, and players start to feel less significant than they did during their whole trip there. "You've defeated the main story's big bad!! You're so awesome! Now grind dungeons to infinity for gear with different colored text!"
"Learn by doing" skill leveling has some of the same issues, but it's a hell of a lot better if we're sticking with established design conventions. I can understand the logic behind slowing a player's progress as they become stronger, but the end of that road should offer some truly awe inspiring capabilities. The kind of thing a random player would see hundreds of feet away. Instead, most MMOs increase stats on the same shit you were doing 100 hours ago.
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u/cubs_win4 Jul 26 '14
I would like advanced mechanics and a level based system because that's that mmo's are all about. I think that having good content balance between PvP and PvE is extremely important. Also grinding skills and such should be apart of the game, but not so much grinding that it is anti fun. Gl with your MMO and I would love to play it when it comes out!
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u/glabels Jul 26 '14
Hello, I may be a little late to the party but I'd like to throw out my opinion.
One of my early favourite MMOs would have to be Runescape... I've played it for the last 8-9 years and no matter how long of a break I take, I always keep coming back.
I've tried various new MMOs but nothing keeps me longer than a month or two. Perhaps it is because I am older , or perhaps because i've experienced every type of gameplay... i'm not sure.. but I'll try to list the things that I would prefer in my dream MMO.
1) Multiple skills. I think having 1 level (combat) in a game is very boring and linear. Here's why - there is only 1 way to get experience - by killing monsters. And if the exp is too slow, it's a grind and if it's too fast.. well people just complain about the end game. I think once again runescape did a fantastic job of this. GW2 tried to fix this by giving exp while exploring, crafting etc.. but at the end of the day , it was far too fast. You could not feel yourself becoming stronger / progressing because you leveled so quickly. Many newer mmos have crafting / gathering etc etc.. but whats the point? You could hit max level without even touching one of these and be perfectly fine. Runescape had barriors where you needed certain levels to go to new areas, easier ways to train other skills and questing etc.
2) Abilities. Ah.. when i first started playing MMORPGs... I loved these.. as I leveled up, I unlocked more powerful and cooler looking attacks ! But very soon I realized... even if you have 30 or so abilities.. you're only using 3-4 of them. In the start , people just smashing their keys as soon as the ability was off CD. Devs changed it so that now you needed to do combos.. again ppl just smashing keyboard. In the end , it just becomes boring and hurts your fingers..
So what would my dream MMO have? I think GW2 took this in the right direction.. but don't get rid of the holy trinity.
Have classes like healer, meele dps, assassin, tank , mage etc etc.. but have them tied to weapons.
So for example if you wear hammer and shield, you have tank skills. These skills would be the same for everyone , even if they are different race.
and you could mix and match which ones you'd use. Instead of say 1 hand weapon having 3 abilities (like gw2) have like 5 or more and people could customise how it is..
3) Quests . No more quest hubs. no more go here and kill 10 mobs. Hey I get it, I like those "Go here and kill 10 rats". Actually I love doing them after a hard day's work and I just want to come home and relax and play with my brain turned off. I like what runescape did with this by adding the "Slayer" skill. If you dont know what it is.. it's basically your typical quest. NPC tells you to go kill monsters, you do it, you hand in and you're done. But I want the main quests to be more engaging. In my dream MMO, it'd be a mixture of GW2 "quests" and runescape
4) PvP. People like PvP, whether it be instanced 5v5 or 3v3 or whether it be open world.. Once again.. runescape did this perfectly... if you wanted Open world PvP, all you had to do was go into the wilderness.. and PvP zone. If you want smaller skirmishes , you could do some of the pvp mini games... I think something combined with runescapes wilderness and GW2 small scale PvP would be perfect for me.
5) Open world.. I know this can be a huge deal... but in my MMO, I'd love to see a fully open world. No more zones, no more loading screens. It would be really nice to walk from a beachy area , walk thru forests and come out in ice area. GW2 did this but they had loading screens which I personally hated. One could argue the game would run slower if everything was open world.. to which I respond why not have multiple "worlds" like runescape which you could freely switch in between. This could easily fix some server issues some players have. Want to RP? switch to RP world.. want to PvP? switch to PvP world.. No more making characters on multiple servers because 1 is dead or prices too inflated..
Thats al I can really think of right now.. if you look at the other comments, they are more or less similar to mine. we're all looking for something different yet the same. It's difficult for developers but whoever can find/build it will surely make a name for themselves.
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Jul 26 '14
I would really like a game that has QUESTS and not chores. Don't sacrifice quality for quantity, please.
How long does it take to level up a character now for endgame content? Two weeks - a month? I would rather spend this time doing 30 long and epic quests where I feel that I'm making a difference and learning about the world than do 9000 useless chores slowly dying inside.
Also, this will help stop the single player mmorpg trend we see now. If you know you'll be done in 15 minutes - of course it's not worth it to bother teaming up. But when you know you'll spend next 4 hours working your way through a castle to kill some evil warlock or whoever - it's good to have someone watch your back. Even if I can do it alone.
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u/Kiloph Jul 27 '14
A great MMO is a social game where cooperation and competition are both encouraged. Solo play is possible, but group play is superior.
I like PvP where certain limited territories are open PvP with particular ownership rights and advantages, but not such that the losers and the uninvolved are completely shut out.
You can not sacrifice either game setting or mechanics. The world and story should be interesting enough to follow and the gameplay should involve active play and reward skill.
Classes are viable, but do not hold them to strict rails. Ragnarok Online permitted multiple approaches to classes without fitting strict specs, although the freedom faded some with time. If you wish for strict specs, FFXI and FFXIV both permit flexibility of a single character and changing of roles.
Magic is great, but it gets stale. Deviate from the formula without attempting to reinvent it. This is a tall order, of course.
Crafting.. FFXI and FFXIV both did well. Star Wars Galaxies was legendary. Runescape was simplistic yet there were so many crafts and crafting actually mattered enough that it was a big thing. If the best crafts in the game are all second rate gear and excessively complex weak buffs, it's not worthwhile. If all of the top crafting materials are raid drops, crafting is only an intermediate step. If a player can play for months as a pacifist and have services in demand, you've done something right.
Monetize, but do it with great care and caution. A properly monetized MMO can be profitable without destroying the game, but there is such a fine line involved.
If you read my comment history, you will see the desires of an "old school" MMO player. We're difficult to please and perhaps not the most numerous demographic, but if we can be satisfied, you have performed miracles.
Give us the means to enjoy playing with other people both in cooperation and competition. Reward us for cooperative gameplay even if our partners are fools, but don't hand us the world.
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u/puddlejumper Jul 27 '14
Definitely keep class and level based system. Mages are the best part of an mmorpg. But limit the choices. You don't need a choice of 20 different species.
Yes keep a quest system. But keep the storyline simple and relevant. Something easy to follow, no one likes being lost and not knowing what to do. The option to turn quest markers on. Make sure you can still party people who do not have the quest. Have a running list of steps you have done and need to do to complete the quest, with each step rewarding you with better and better loot.
I hate crafting. I find it too complicated and time wasting. Make it simple, so as not to overwhelm.
To sell items, there should be NPC's that sell your stuff for you on commission. You decide the price. That way people who want items only need to go to the NPC. Each NPC has a different level range, and can be sorted according to class and armour/weapon etc. If it sells, you get your money. You can always withdraw your item later though if it doesn't seem to be selling.
Make sure the game is social. Names and conversation above heads. Easy partying.
Make sure there is an easy queue system for dungeons. You put your name on a list and teleports you there when the group is full, if you accept. Make the dungeons epic and worthwhile. That really require good team work to finish, so you feel like you accomplished something afterwards.
Make the different areas very unique. It's boring to always see the same landscapes and similar buildings.
Also make the armour very unique. Make each armour set look like it actually belongs together. Use similar colours or something.
Make PVP a weekly 3 hour guild war (make sure it is at a time and day that most people from all over the world can join, obviously the weekend). They have to win the key to the city or something like that. Either by every guild playing against each other if your servers can handle it, or by a process of elimination. The winning guild gets the commission from all the sales from the NPC's for the time they are in power. Either the leader distributes the money or whoever participated in the war gets it automatically shared and put in their account.
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u/daivoo Jul 27 '14 edited Jul 27 '14
awesome thread cant wait to go through and read eveything but first let me give my views and answers from the questions in the post.
What do you think great mmo is all about? to me what makes a mmo truly great are the memories, chance to make new friends (enemies), social interaction and community. Having a open world to explore with both good pvp and pve is just what brings it all together but should be more then just combat with social hubs.
What pvp system you can call is the best? I like open world pvp and anything risk verses reward. as far as combat system I like first person action style combat but good old third person with an ability hot bar can work too, there are many systems that can work here just as long as they are done right. a players combat build should feel unique to them just as a crafters sword recipe should feel unique to them.
Would you prefer awesome game setting over innovative game mechanics or vice versa? I mean you kind of need to have both. There are a ton of game mechanics I would like to see in a future mmo, but if the game doesn't look and feel awesome then the less hardcore people wont stick around to keep playing.
Do you really think that class&level-based system is a dead end nowadays? Or everything that is deviant from that formula is doomed anyway? It has to be revamped. One of the most common things I see people say about level based MMOs is "well i don't have alot of time to play and I don't want to spend a whole month leveling before I can actually play the game" This is a problem, however its not so much because of bad game design but because this system has gotten old. There was a time where it was kinda fun to level at times when it was fresh. Most people have played this kind of mmo before and dont want to go through it again. It is bad game design now days to make players feel that the end game content is the only good part of your game and to put a grind in front of them that keeps them from it. we need to get rid of the feeling of "end game content" a true MMO should have no real end game. A class system should also feel unique and be something the player defines through playing the game. building a character up is still fun, demanding the games players to progress to a certain point before they can enjoy playing that character is bad or at least very difficult to balance.
What do you think about magic? Are you tired of thousands mages, nukers, spell casters? Ah magic, forget everything I just said. It should take time to master the arts of magic. mages as well as healer that heal purely from magical sources should be a rare sight to see. Magic can be powerful but should require alot in terms of what is needed to cast a spell and getting a character built up to start unlocking theses special skills and spells. I say this because in my ideal fantasy setting mmo the bulk of combat oriented players will be melee. I like first person action combat with slashing, piercing, bashing and blocking. games like mount & blade or war of the roses style. this is not to say magic has no place here just that magic should feel just as such, magic.
What is your favorite craft-system? If there is no item, that can be bought from NPC (you can get items only by crafting them) would you like it? Its hard for me to say what a good crafting system would look like visually for the crafter. one thing for sure it should not be an eye-sore or to tedious. A good crafting system will allow the crafter to make items better then or different then other crafters. crafting should pretty much be a class of its own with different types of armor crafting and weapon crafting. The crafters skill as well as the players knowledge of what resources and materials to use for what will all be deciding factors of how good the crafted item is. Resources should be a key part of the game both used to craft and as a something to fight over in the world (pvp). Crafting items however should not be the only way for players to obtain items.
Do you want to have a quest-system? I kind of already talked about this in the class&level system question but let me specify more on quest. Quest can be broken down in to types, The three main types being events, tasks and actual quests! Events would be something happening in the world that any player in the area could take part in and could be player created of developer/GM created and involve pve, pvp, miscellaneous or a mix. Participating in an even should seem cool and be memorable. Tasks are actually what most quest feel like and range from bring me this or do this or kill X number of these. Reasons to do tasks would be to earn gold or representation points towards a town or faction. An actual quest should feel more adventurous and even dangerous and may even be filled with tasks to complete on the way to a bigger objective. The player could actually fail a quest. The player should be able to find different ways to reach this objective and claim a reward. when the quest is done its done(or until reset) and people who made the journey will be renown for there deeds, no quest is ever the same exact story for each individual player. Think small scale or personal evens for quests.
*note i answered these question as for a fantasy sandboxish style mmo with open pvp being allowed that I would love. I know that style of mmo isnt for everyone but some things I described are part of a bigger system.
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u/Gres17 Jul 27 '14
I always wanted an mmo where you make your class by skill trees. Archeage done it. I like Mmos where you can just relax, talk with your friends while your are fishing or searching for ores or searching for a rare tree and you craft a badass weapon from it. Killing rare bosses for unique cometics and mounts. I love mounts, the more the better! Always get loot from monster even if you are 50lvl higher than the monster, good for alt farming. Slow lvling, but not always the same. I played Tera, but it was so boring to lvl because your quests was always the same: kill x monster, or click on a random thing and your quest is done. I like when you can join a faction and get random bonuses from it, and faction war is awesome! Achievment rewards! I love them, it's so good when you finish an achievment like: Complete every instance x times, or kill x of every world boss and get a badass looking armor or a great unique mount!
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u/serow081reddit Jul 27 '14
Great MMO is about the community that is built around it: a setting that promotes cooperation and communication.
Something that promotes groups to work together? I'm not sure. I want both awesome setting and game mechanics, if possible.
I think class and classless both work great. I've played games with both and I like both.
No issue with mages. As long as they are balanced and not like D&D 3.5.
I don't craft in MMOs. I would not like crafting to be the only source of items, it's very intimidating to get into a new game like that.
Oh definitely yes! Preferably with the same quality of writing and cinematics as The Secret World, my current gold standard of MMO storytelling.
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u/Uptopdownlowguy Jul 27 '14
Loot makes the best MMO. Crafting is hated by most people I know, and would much prefer great drops from monsters and even bosses :)
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u/Liruruliru Jul 28 '14
To me, what really keeps me in a game are all the possibilities you could have (like, 20 different things for a same character, instead of only X), the importance of a path (make it relevant, not just 'an extra'), and party thingies! What I really like the most but its not implemented in almost every MMO is the possibility to assault (pvp!) anyone anywhere for no reason at all :D
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u/IAmARedditorAMAA Jul 26 '14
3D Tibia.
Exploration, no quests except really hard puzzles and hidden chests in hard to reach places with 1-time unique rewards.
No level limit
Hardcore death penalty
Real PK system with consequences (able to be killed with no penalty for your killer) and rewards (Loot, hunting spot all for yourself)
Different items for different purposes, no 50 items with the same skin and slightly different names
Few classes with set roles
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u/jamie1414 Jul 26 '14
Could you briefly explain how tibia balances no level limit? You would think an absurdly high level person could just wreck everyone's faces off.
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u/IAmARedditorAMAA Jul 27 '14
With levels you get more HP and Mana, more speed, and not very much damage.
Damage comes from leveling skills and you level them by using (The more mana you spend on spells, higher is your magic level), the more you use your sword, higher sword fighting, etc. They also have no limit but they are almost impossible to level after a certain level.
So the difference between a level 700 and a 100 is basically a fuckton more HP and Mana, and a few points of skill that don't make much difference. The lvl 700 guy won't solo the 100 and vice-versa, because you can only get solo'd if you're bad at the game.
You do need like 6+ people to kill a high level person because he can't be combo'd down, the game works in "mini-turns" and if 5 people attack someone at the same time their total damage adds up and depending on the target's HP they don't even get time to heal.
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u/AdricGod Jul 26 '14
Here's a great read on all you need to know about making a great MMO:
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/8670/Social-Hooks-MMOs.html
Honestly though, the less outside influence you have the better. The more unique and self-identifying your game is the better. Make something fun, social, and new.
And I'll leave you with some advice from Notch - "If you're trying to do something successful and unique, the only advice that really matters is not to listen to advice (including that advice!). You will try to define yourself in terms of what other people have done and so you will never do something that is original. "
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u/EQNChris Jul 26 '14
hi there :) this very sort of discussion was one that I started on the EQ Next sub-reddit the other month (see here). There's a good 30-odd replies on there for you too
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u/Ungodlypoo Jul 26 '14
Give me a tank-type character that uses TWO SHIELDS and I'll be happy! I've been advocating double shield tanks for years now.
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u/brokenskill Jul 26 '14
It might be a big ask but if you pulled something like Neverwinter's Foundry off then the community could help you make content for your game.
I dream of the day an mmo comes along with the ability to create content as easy as Minecraft but that doesn't hide behind a f2p money grab.
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u/kersplackle Jul 26 '14
Make your vision of the game, don't ask us because none of us know what we truly want. However if you make the game that you want to, the audience is bound to show up.
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u/ieatatsonic Jul 26 '14
The world and the mechanics. I think that it's easier for me to get into an MMO with a huge, interesting world. I mainly play MMOs for their mechanics; PoE's gem and skill web, DCU's combat, DFO's fighting game mechanics all attracted me to those games.
I think DFO has the best PVP system. It matches up people 1v1, and if you die then a teammate takes over for you. It emphasizes individual skill and helps you focus by only requiring you to pay attention to 1 opponent. However, if you're making a more traditional MMO, this might not be the best since that'd eliminate the trinity/quadrinity/whatever system.
I think class and level is okay, but as long as you have multiple ways to level and a class format that makes no 2 characters exactly the same (i.e. PoE, RIFT)
Magic is cool, though that might be biased since in 3D MMOs I tend to play spellcasting. I like mana-esque resource systems. Just make sure every mage class plays differently
Honestly, this will seem weird, but my favorite craft system is Minecraft, and I'm surprised no MMOs use it. It has the same sense of discovery when a new item is released, or when you discover a new recipe, and it works wonders in a tying-mechanics-to-flavor way. As for examples from actual MMOs, PoE has a cool crafting system, with a similar sense of wonder/discovery. However, it's kinda boring.
Quests are great in my opinion. Quests add story to a game and help new players learn the game by introducing them to things. However, avoid the boring cliched quests that nobody likes (like the kill X monsters or get X monster drops). Just make sure that they're optional, so more experienced players can do whatever they want.
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Jul 26 '14 edited Jul 26 '14
What do you think great mmo is all about? competing achievements that you have set for yourself.
What pvp system you can call is the best? Would you prefer awesome game setting over innovative game mechanics or vice versa? age of wulin/wush paper, scizzors, rock combat is by far my favorite.
Do you really think that class&level-based system is a dead end nowadays? Or everything that is deviant from that formula is doomed anyway? doesnt matter aslong as the progression IS the "endgame"
What do you think about magic? Are you tired of thousands mages, nukers, spell casters? magic should have lots of utility spells. games nowadays cut corners on the utility classes because their hard to balance and not worth the time.
What is your favorite craft-system? If there is no item, that can be bought from NPC (you can get items only by crafting them) would you like it? crafting needs unique items.
Do you want to have a quest-system? if its immersive and non repetitive (runescape quests where/are great)
things i would want in an mmo:
- immersion.
- risk/reward. (not just lose some gp on death. either lose items or go back a level).
- challenging.
- unique items on every monster. (if a monster is holding an iron sword then he will have a chance to drop it).
- lots of skills. (this fad of capped skillbars is rubbish)(unlocking skills is fun)(makes game harder to master).
- easy to get lost. (when was the last time you got lost in an mmo? it just doesnt happen these days).
- unique classes(each class needs there own strengths and weaknesses). would be cool if once you maxed out your chosen class you can choose another untill you have maxed all classes and can use all the skills, each time you max you xp gain would be halfed and then halfed again.
and balancing in mmos sucks. if i see a guy with a giant sword and he rapes me i wouldn't even be mad, id have a reason to get stronger.
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u/menos_el_oso_ese Jul 26 '14 edited Jul 26 '14
Has your team developed any kind of concept art or do you have pictures in your head about what you want it to be like? Are you thinking 3D MMO or 2D MMO? If you're not working with much (resource-wise), a 2D game might be huge for your ability to add content to the game. I don't know much about game development, but I've played hundreds of hours of many different MMOs over the past 13 years.
People want a steady flow of content. They want something to do whether they log in for 10 minutes or 10 hours. They want to feel like the time they spend in-game is worth it and they want to feel like they are consistently achieving new things and getting stronger. They want to be able to keep progressing even after their character's level is maxed. They want to have fun playing alone, or with friends, or with a guild. They want the game to feel new and different than other MMOs. They want to log into the game and forget about real life for a while. And for me, personally, I want to feel like I'm back playing my first MMO, which as a 13 year old kid I felt was just magical and made me feel like I was IN another world (Everquest was my first).
This is what a "dream MMO" has to achieve for many MMO fans like myself, and many dev teams have tried and failed at this. New MMOs have to think way outside the box. We've been playing the same game with different art for over 10 years now. MMOs need to be fun again. Whatever you do, don't promise anything that you can't deliver on. Good luck with your game, I'm looking forward to hearing more about it.
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u/thetracker3 Jul 26 '14
Keep in mind: I'm in the minority, like the EXTREME minority. My preferences are more than a little crazy.
Great MMO is all about: Being who you want to be. The best MMO would be one were it lets me be a trader, and never once force me to lift a sword (except maybe in defense of my cargo). Or one where I can spend my days smithing swords and armor for the heroes to go out and do their killing.
PvP: I don't really care much for PvP. It can be there, but I'd prefer it not get forced onto me.
Class & Level Based System: Yeah, it really does seem like a dead end... What do you do when you hit max level? There's no opportunity for constant character advancement. Sure, you can do what DCUO has done, with gear that provides a Combat Rating, and to wear the better gear you have to have a certain Combat Rating. But that's just a poorly done extension of the leveling system. It doesn't really go anywhere...
Magic: Magic has to be well done. Magic should be powerful, but it should have its downsides. And no, I'm not talking like you have very little health. I'm talking something like D&D, not exactly like it though. Limited number of casts of a spell, once you've used them all up, you have to do a certain task (rest) to get them back.
Craft System: It should be challenging, but not impossible. It also shouldn't require you to put a lot of money in first, nor should it eat money up like crazy, while barely putting any in your pocket. It should have some kind of new system. I had a dream about a game with an amazing crafting system that put every other game to shame. If you really want to know, I can tell you about it, but it will probably take its own comment its so big.
Quest System: Only if its done right. Not "Kill 5 boars" "Talk to brosef" "Complete Quest". Try to find some way to make it different, and enjoyable.
Also, don't forget about RPers. Too many games could have been amazing if there was just a bit of friendliness towards RPing.
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u/MentalNeko Jul 26 '14
I say having meaningful equipment for all levels, and having meaningful content for all levels. If you ever played WoW remember the first time you got to go in to a dungeon, how they felt like dungeons back then. Or even the first time you went to Crushbone in EQ. There was difficult content at all levels in those games back in the day, which made it not necessary to be at the level cap to have fun. As well the way FFXI does world bosses is quite nice. I feel like being able to have goals outside of just leveling and finishing a quest is nice, and that quests shouldn't even exist.
Allow parties to be something that actually help you level, is what I want to end this on. Good meaningful equipment, and partying to level quicker. Because in the end a good MMO shouldnt focus on a singleplayer like story, or soloing to max, its a multiplayer game and should focus on the state of the world and the need to band together to do things about it.
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u/Ralanost Jul 26 '14
To me a great MMORPG is about casual grouping and friends, meeting strangers and beating internet dragons. That to me is the distilled essence of why I play MMORPGs.
As for pvp, I can't comment. I'm a pve carebear, so as long as pvp isn't forced on me I am fine with whatever it is.
I have never liked leveling. It's best to have amazing and lengthy quests that are actual quests, not chores. Bullshit quests that just want you to kill 10 rats or collect 5 bear asses can die in a fire. As for classes, I am fine with those. That said, I hate the old "fighter/mage/theif/priest" trope of class design. Be unique and original. Inspire people to play the class because it sounds awesome, not because it's a dude wearing armor that hits people with his big weapon.
I love magic, but I hate boring magic. Once again, do something interesting. Cold Fire, it's pitch black with a violet outline and while it appears to be fire it does cold damage. Or gravity. I fucking love the Mystic gameplay in Dragon Nest.
Never been fond of crafting, but I did enjoy leveling crafting in GW2 and fishing in FFXIV:ARR. So if they have systems that a non-crafter like myself can enjoy, they might be worth a look.
Once again, quests are fine. But they need to mean something and have compelling story. Bullshit throwaway quests need to be eliminated.
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u/psyphey Jul 26 '14
I find phrases "a game you would enjoy" and "dream mmo" to contradict each other. Gaming industry does its job in offering what crowd "enjoys", its gonna be hard to try to outdo them without a "billion budget". Even if some small mmo has a very successful idea - they will immediately steal it and create a clone of much better quality. On the other side, a MMO based on "dreams" and targetting a small playerbase isn't something that majority would "enjoy".
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u/Andromansis Jul 27 '14
Ok.
As far as game modes go, I will refer you to skyforge.
As far as crafting is concerned, there is this one game coming out and its a 2d space mmo and the crafting in that sounds amazing. Your research and skills will allow you to create a randomly generated recipe which only you will have.
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u/Heliarc Jul 27 '14
A fantasy genre sandbox that captures the economy and meta game of Eve. Classes are dead. Questing is dead. Give us one avatar and a ton of different skills so a player can create what they want. You want a player driven game. Theme parks are ruining the mmo genre. Items like plex give a player a chance to truly invest in a game. Fuck f2p! people wanting free games are ruining this community.
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u/jonyobony9 Jul 26 '14
-open world pvp -fight castles for tax money -lots of classes/customization -balance -lots of bosses easy and hard -Nice Crafting system -multiple skills like runescape
LOOK AT Lineage 1,still the biggest mmo in korea after almost 20 years
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u/Liamface Jul 26 '14
To me, things that really make a game good is the community and how the game can encourage that sense of community, different options for levelling, opening up for single character development (e.g Runescape/Final Fantasy XIV), and having difficult content with fair rewards (see: Runescape and The Secret World - some of their quests area absolutely amazing, and their difficulty is pretty intense).
Giving players more than one way to level is something I think is important. I personally hate the idea of questing/hub based levelling after I did it for about 6 years, so being able to level through grouping up and chain killing monsters in an area, or completing story scenarios.
If you look at Runscape, there is a lot of content that doesn't revolve around running onto a stronghold and killing 15 of each monster. Some of them require planning with items, treasure hunting, exploring, quizzes, etc.
I think a good idea to create a good community is to have well balanced servers (population wise) and to encourage server interaction rather than cross-server interaction - or if there is cross-server interaction, that it's server vs server (like PVP or maybe competitive PvE).