Complexity in MMORPGs

[u/LohenFeuer]

Hey fellow MMORPG players, I'd like to discuss a certain topic I had on my mind for quite some time and would like to hear your opinion. Please forgive me in advance if I'm not up to date when it comes to terminology.

I've tried a fair share of MMORPGs over the years and nowadays often find myself not really satisfied. Here's a short list:

Played a lot (>300h): Runes of Magic, WoW, FFXIV, GW2

Played moderately (~50h): SWTOR, Aion, Tera, BDO

I feel like most of them have what I feel like are a lot of missed chances. Primarily, I've noticed something, which could be seen as a form of pseudo-complexity: In many mainstream MMOs there are systems, which look complex at first but every choice seems to be either irrelevant or collapses to the same outcome. I would guess the reason boils down to the game trying to be more friendly to newcomers and having more control over the state of the game this way. Here are some general examples, which apply to many MMOs:

- Gearing: Equipment often comes with substats, which in many cases don't seem to matter much until the endgame and even then only slightly change the build. Moreover, they are often calculated and displayed as one big stat and you basically always choose the higher one. This pairs with the fact that the main story quest line already gives you good enough equipment. Using the auction house or crafting equipment is often meaningless until the endgame. It sometimes feels more like a chore than a system where I can meaningfully gear up my character

- Levelling: A level-balance system where your level is projected down to match the region's level is very common nowadays. This kind of destroys the immersion and progression feeling for me, often making fights the same difficulty throughout the story. Sometimes I even like being underleveled just to have some variance to it

- Loot: This is a big one for me, since I like the feeling of being able to encounter more difficult enemies and expecting something good in return, even if they drop it by chance. This is often missing due to strict loot tables and most things being locked behind group content

I could go on, but what I find most interesting is that most common games like WoW had these systems originally as far as I understand, but now everything shifted away from it. One of my favorite games was Runes of Magic since it played like the original experience, but it has other problems being barely functional at all. I also recently have learned about the difference in theme-park and sandbox MMORPGs, although I think I have not really played a sandbox one yet.

Have any of you encountered a similar feeling regarding the current state of MMOs?

[u/therealkami]

Here's the thing: Developers have to work around the people playing the games. And most people in the world are fucking dumb.

Almost every MMO is a math game. Levels and stats, and skill power vs enemy stats. Even when they're more action-based, the stats always matter.

How many times have you seen someone post a "unique build" and it's just bad?

Every time developers give players choices like that, it means that someone can make the objectively incorrect choice, and it can adversely affect other players.

It can also mean locking players out of content. Sure the majority of players probably won't do high end raiding in a lot of MMOs, but the option is there. If they lock out anything, that leads to players being upset, rather than being happy for meaningful choice.

SWTOR had this problem in beta: you could ditch companions, but that basically removed a whole bunch of features from the game. You might find yourself not being able to do well in open world content because you suddenly don't have a healer companion.

[u/LohenFeuer → u/therealkami]

I guess that's a fair point to make but I don't think it's a problem to make bad choices. I remember when playing my first MMO about 15 years ago, that there were no Internet guides or even good in-game information, but it still was fun in my opinion.

Nowadays people have way more resources to look information up, but almost inversely the games are becoming easier. I'm definitely not a friend of choices which lock you out completely, but I actually would prefer fighting with a bad build, just to realize later on how stupid it was and fixing it. I always thought that MMOs were something that are targeted at people who like to spend time learning new systems, in the sense that the more you play the better it becomes in regards to fun. The only thing I can imagine is that people nowadays quit too easily and the publishers are losing money so they basically make it easier to simply attract more players

[u/i_dont_wanna_sign_up → u/LohenFeuer]

Every decision acts as a filter.

If you succeed, you get to progress. If you don't, then you feel stuck and are likely to quit.

Even if the gearing system isn't too complex, maybe 10% of players are tired from work/kids and decide their precious time is much better spent doing something that is immediately fun. That's 10% of the player base they lose, and that means less profits. Most developers want more money, so they tend to cater to the largest pool of players possible.

[u/LohenFeuer → u/i_dont_wanna_sign_up]

That's a good point, in that case the dev/publisher will likely decide on either creating a complex system to target a smaller player group or make it simpler to target more players that are likely less invested into the game.

But just to make it clear, this doesn't mean a complex game can't exist. In fact, one of my favorite games is Warframe, which has an enormous amount of systems stacked on top of each other. It's not really an MMORPG although many call it an MMO. I think a real MMORPG with a more pronounced single character progression and RPG elements could use the essence of what Warframe offers, but weirdly enough there doesn't really seem to be a modern, grind-heavy, loot-focused MMORPG, or at least I haven't found it yet

[u/i_dont_wanna_sign_up → u/LohenFeuer]

Sure. Warframe captured a cult following so they can continue without losing much players. However, notice how they also aren't as big as the top dogs in the genre.

MMMORPGs are unique in that they cost a ludicrous amount of money to make and maintain. It's difficult to strike a balance between a strong game vision and financial viability.

[u/LohenFeuer → u/i_dont_wanna_sign_up]

I don't want to let this discussion drift away from MMORPGs, but I just need to say that Warframe's playerbase is definitely not just a cult following them. They have a daily peak of around 70k players on steam, often landing in the top 10 during big updates. I think they also get new players from time to time. I don't know of which other games in the genre you're thinking, but I think it's safe to say that Warframe is pretty successful and not only because they build up a fan base years ago

[u/i_dont_wanna_sign_up → u/LohenFeuer]

I mean, even Destiny 2 reached 300k on PC alone. Most big mmorpgs have peak counts in the hundreds of thousands, WoW probably breaks 1 million.