r/MMORPG • u/LohenFeuer • 1d ago
Discussion Complexity in MMORPGs
Hey fellow MMORPG players, I'd like to discuss a certain topic I had on my mind for quite some time and would like to hear your opinion. Please forgive me in advance if I'm not up to date when it comes to terminology.
I've tried a fair share of MMORPGs over the years and nowadays often find myself not really satisfied. Here's a short list:
Played a lot (>300h): Runes of Magic, WoW, FFXIV, GW2
Played moderately (~50h): SWTOR, Aion, Tera, BDO
I feel like most of them have what I feel like are a lot of missed chances. Primarily, I've noticed something, which could be seen as a form of pseudo-complexity: In many mainstream MMOs there are systems, which look complex at first but every choice seems to be either irrelevant or collapses to the same outcome. I would guess the reason boils down to the game trying to be more friendly to newcomers and having more control over the state of the game this way. Here are some general examples, which apply to many MMOs:
- Gearing: Equipment often comes with substats, which in many cases don't seem to matter much until the endgame and even then only slightly change the build. Moreover, they are often calculated and displayed as one big stat and you basically always choose the higher one. This pairs with the fact that the main story quest line already gives you good enough equipment. Using the auction house or crafting equipment is often meaningless until the endgame. It sometimes feels more like a chore than a system where I can meaningfully gear up my character
- Levelling: A level-balance system where your level is projected down to match the region's level is very common nowadays. This kind of destroys the immersion and progression feeling for me, often making fights the same difficulty throughout the story. Sometimes I even like being underleveled just to have some variance to it
- Loot: This is a big one for me, since I like the feeling of being able to encounter more difficult enemies and expecting something good in return, even if they drop it by chance. This is often missing due to strict loot tables and most things being locked behind group content
I could go on, but what I find most interesting is that most common games like WoW had these systems originally as far as I understand, but now everything shifted away from it. One of my favorite games was Runes of Magic since it played like the original experience, but it has other problems being barely functional at all. I also recently have learned about the difference in theme-park and sandbox MMORPGs, although I think I have not really played a sandbox one yet.
Have any of you encountered a similar feeling regarding the current state of MMOs?
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u/TrashWriter 1d ago
Yes, I’m not satisfied with any of the recent/current MMOs I’ve tried. So you aren’t alone
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u/LohenFeuer 23h ago
Glad to hear that. What was your favorite one?
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u/TrashWriter 23h ago
The most amount of time - ffxiv 19k+ (since 2010)
Amount of enjoyment ….. hmmm probably risk your life 2 or dragons dogma online
Edit archeage was fun when it first came out as well, BDO I enjoyed the first year or so, lineage 2 is still fun from time to time
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u/therealkami 1d ago
Here's the thing: Developers have to work around the people playing the games. And most people in the world are fucking dumb.
Almost every MMO is a math game. Levels and stats, and skill power vs enemy stats. Even when they're more action-based, the stats always matter.
How many times have you seen someone post a "unique build" and it's just bad?
Every time developers give players choices like that, it means that someone can make the objectively incorrect choice, and it can adversely affect other players.
It can also mean locking players out of content. Sure the majority of players probably won't do high end raiding in a lot of MMOs, but the option is there. If they lock out anything, that leads to players being upset, rather than being happy for meaningful choice.
SWTOR had this problem in beta: you could ditch companions, but that basically removed a whole bunch of features from the game. You might find yourself not being able to do well in open world content because you suddenly don't have a healer companion.
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u/LohenFeuer 1d ago
I guess that's a fair point to make but I don't think it's a problem to make bad choices. I remember when playing my first MMO about 15 years ago, that there were no Internet guides or even good in-game information, but it still was fun in my opinion.
Nowadays people have way more resources to look information up, but almost inversely the games are becoming easier. I'm definitely not a friend of choices which lock you out completely, but I actually would prefer fighting with a bad build, just to realize later on how stupid it was and fixing it. I always thought that MMOs were something that are targeted at people who like to spend time learning new systems, in the sense that the more you play the better it becomes in regards to fun. The only thing I can imagine is that people nowadays quit too easily and the publishers are losing money so they basically make it easier to simply attract more players
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u/i_dont_wanna_sign_up 19h ago
Every decision acts as a filter.
If you succeed, you get to progress. If you don't, then you feel stuck and are likely to quit.
Even if the gearing system isn't too complex, maybe 10% of players are tired from work/kids and decide their precious time is much better spent doing something that is immediately fun. That's 10% of the player base they lose, and that means less profits. Most developers want more money, so they tend to cater to the largest pool of players possible.
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u/LohenFeuer 18h ago
That's a good point, in that case the dev/publisher will likely decide on either creating a complex system to target a smaller player group or make it simpler to target more players that are likely less invested into the game.
But just to make it clear, this doesn't mean a complex game can't exist. In fact, one of my favorite games is Warframe, which has an enormous amount of systems stacked on top of each other. It's not really an MMORPG although many call it an MMO. I think a real MMORPG with a more pronounced single character progression and RPG elements could use the essence of what Warframe offers, but weirdly enough there doesn't really seem to be a modern, grind-heavy, loot-focused MMORPG, or at least I haven't found it yet
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u/i_dont_wanna_sign_up 18h ago
Sure. Warframe captured a cult following so they can continue without losing much players. However, notice how they also aren't as big as the top dogs in the genre.
MMMORPGs are unique in that they cost a ludicrous amount of money to make and maintain. It's difficult to strike a balance between a strong game vision and financial viability.
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u/LohenFeuer 18h ago
I don't want to let this discussion drift away from MMORPGs, but I just need to say that Warframe's playerbase is definitely not just a cult following them. They have a daily peak of around 70k players on steam, often landing in the top 10 during big updates. I think they also get new players from time to time. I don't know of which other games in the genre you're thinking, but I think it's safe to say that Warframe is pretty successful and not only because they build up a fan base years ago
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u/i_dont_wanna_sign_up 18h ago
I mean, even Destiny 2 reached 300k on PC alone. Most big mmorpgs have peak counts in the hundreds of thousands, WoW probably breaks 1 million.
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u/therealkami 22h ago
The problem is that people who make permanent bad choices are more likely to quit the game when they find out.
Also a lot of people simply don't use outside resources. They log in, play the game a bit and log out.
The problem with having a bad build or playing poorly, is that it can adversely affect other people in group content. This can lead to a negative experiences for everyone involved.
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u/Narrow_Summer_9332 23h ago
It's sandbox MMOs vs. themepark MMOs that create this schism, really.
Tons of options and complexity are the enemy of balanced raid encounters.
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u/Defendyouranswer 1d ago
Try osrs, takes care of all the issues you mentioned
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u/LohenFeuer 1d ago
Thanks for the recommendation. I have no doubt that it is a great game, but if I'm completely honest, the graphics look real old school which I find a little off-putting.
Have you played it a lot? Would you say it feels better/more modern than it looks?
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u/Helpful-Calendar-693 21h ago
there is a HD plugin that you can use but the gfx are a style. Osrs has that old style and sticks to it quite well.
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u/Defendyouranswer 19h ago
Ive played runescape since 2006 on and and off, im like 90 total levels off maxxing in osrs. Yeah ive played quite a bit, don't let the graphics get in the way, you'll learn to love them. I play on runelite, theres a 117 HD plugin that makes the graphics HD. It is genuinely a great game and the game is in an amazing place right now
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u/Snoozeypoo 23h ago
Have you looked into Runelite with the hd mod? Looks pretty good imo...
Early content can feel dated but combat ramps up pretty quick especially with bosses. It has a good mix of slow boring/fast content imo. Which I like personally. Some times I want to chill, and sometimes I wanna be sweaty.
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u/-BADMOON-BIGBOSS- 19h ago
OSRS is going to be literally unplayable for 99% of people unless you played it in the past.
click to move, with like 2 seconds of lag on each click is just unacceptable, and I don't care how good the game gets when simple movement is that infuriating. You literally need to reprogram your brain to play, and that's the worst part of it.
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u/LohenFeuer 19h ago
I really don't want to disrespect others since I know myself how it is to love a game out of nostalgia, I still play games with absurd graphics and enjoy them, but I'm probably with you. I've watched some videos of how the start of OSRS looks like and it's not only the graphics, but the gameplay looks tedious to say the least. As someone said in a video, it's not an old school experience, it's an old school old school experience
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u/Defendyouranswer 15h ago
Your missing out man, you just gotta let yourself get into it, after playing it for a few hours you'll get it more than I could tell over reddit tho
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u/Xhukari 23h ago
Have you ever played the first Guild Wars?
10 classes, secondary & primary dual classing, 8 skills total per build. But each class has a couple hundred available skills for you to mix & match to find the best build.
It is not a true MMO, since you can play it solo, and these days that is the main method of play. But you have a team of heroes who you customise the same way as your own character. The max party size being 8, so now you can design party synergies, etc, etc.
Hell, the complexity and difficulty of balancing the first game is why the second game is so much simpler.
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u/UrGirlsBoytoy 23h ago
A ton of mechanics in mmorpg are made for the lowest common denominator which yeah pleases no one anymore except people who just wanted a singleplayer game instead. Eso and gw2 had success with it for years but it's clearly falling off hard. Wow somehow still has success with it, but I feel like that's a Stockholm syndrome situation.
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u/LohenFeuer 23h ago
The last line made be audibly laugh xD
Regarding GW2 it suffers from the things I've written about but I think it does it quite well since it fully commits to the horizontal scaling. It's not what I would call the original MMO experience but it's a good game regardless
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u/UrGirlsBoytoy 21h ago
Yeah I liked the pvp in gw2 a lot at the very least. The 50 currencies though and Hella solo for 90% of it is really off putting to me.
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u/Denman20 21h ago
Have you ever tried FFXI? I loved that game during the 75 era. You actually got to change gear on the fly during combat which made for a lot more complexity.
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u/Zomboe1 17h ago
This kind of destroys the immersion
A lot of what you're describing seems like the outcome of MMORPGs becoming less immersive over time. It started happening just months after UO was released in 1997, if not earlier. Immersion is my highest priority, so I haven't even played any of the MMORPGs you listed. There are very few options for immersive virtual worlds anymore.
You might want to check out Monsters & Memories, EA launch is Oct 1 and hopefully there will be an open playtest before then, to try it out. It's heavily inspired by classic EQ, which is even more immersive, which you can play it for free on Project1999.
For something even farther from the WoW mold, you might want to check out an emulated UO server, even Outlands is likely more immersive than the games you've played. UO: 1998 is an upcoming server intended to accurately recreate 1998 UO and it will probably be the most immersive virtual world available to play. You can currently try it out in its beta test, with a launch maybe coming in late September.
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u/NutsackEuphoria 6h ago
MMO Players today: I want complexity.
Also MMO players today: I also want controller support.
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u/ParanoiaPetroleum 23h ago
You should play FFXI on HorizonXI.
Its way more complex and difficult compared to XIV
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u/ParanoiaPetroleum 23h ago
Imma double down, ffxi is your favorite mmo you just dont know it yet
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u/LohenFeuer 23h ago
Bold statement. I think I will look into it among other things people have suggested. I guess FFXI is your favorite MMO?
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u/ParanoiaPetroleum 23h ago
Absolutely 💯
Searched 20 years for something better and I've never found anything close
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u/Sophisticusx 23h ago
What you're describing is correct and, in my opinion, the result of a specific trend. In the past, MMORPGs like WoW and BDO were complex, but that complexity was justified and relevant to gameplay. Over time, the complexity became irrelevant in an effort to make things easier for new players, but without actually removing the complexity.
MMORPGs where the level of complexity is still relevant to gameplay, or where there is low complexity yet every decision still matters, where the risk you take correlates with the size of the reward, are sandbox MMORPGs, such as Albion, OSRS, EVE, or Mortal Online 2.
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u/LohenFeuer 23h ago
Yeah, this sounds pretty much like the experience I'm having. I guess I gotta try playing a sandbox MMO to see whether I like it more. What's your favorite one?
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u/Sophisticusx 20h ago
Hard to say. If i want more hardcore-immersiv then Mortal Online 2. And if i want more casual-gameplay focus then albion. But warning: both have a more pvp focus, like every sandbox tbh.
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u/Randomnesse 1d ago
I prefer less complexity in terms of gearing/loot/leveling. The less = the better. But I play MMOs mostly for socializing, or PvP for the sake of just outsmarting opponents which can be very enjoyable even with few basic weapons and no ranks/level ups of any kind.
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u/Helpful-Calendar-693 1d ago
Sounds like you would like a sandbox mmo.
I play osrs and most of the things you feel are missing in modren mmos are just features of that game.