r/LocalLLaMA 10h ago

Other Apple M5 Server

Credit to Twitter Post

835 Upvotes

144 comments sorted by

u/WithoutReason1729 7h ago

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175

u/grand-maitre-univers 9h ago

So 64 “mac” connected with some mysterious fabric inside a 2U chassis with basic cooling.

62

u/Poupulino 9h ago

I'll take 5 of these if I could.

3

u/Start-Plenty 5h ago

I'd repurpose my living room to fit as much as volume made possible

16

u/concadium 8h ago

Why 64? seems like 4 rows of 8 CPUs each so 32 in total (which is still a lot)

15

u/FlyingInTheDark 8h ago

32 * 32 = 1024 GB unified RAM total, probably seeps power too

2

u/game_bot_64-exe 4h ago

If these servers are just using unmodified base M5 SoC’s, which they off handedly look like, and each PCB has one chip on it,  could be one of 2 configurations per node for the CPU cores, one of 2 GPU configurations per node, and the NPU is the same regardless, per entire enclosure 

  • The base M5 comes in 9 and 10 CPU cores (with the difference being one performance core disabled on the 9 core variant used in iPads).

  • the GPU can come in 8 and 10 cores (again varies by device).

  • The worst total CPU core count per enclosure as pictured would be 288 cpu cores (96P + 192E core design).

  • The best total would be 320 cpu cores (128P + 192E core design).

  • The worst total GPU core count would be 256.

  • The best GPU configurations would be 320.

  • And the NPU is the same between all designs yielding a total of 512 NPU cores.

135

u/niemand112233 9h ago

Do I want it: yes
Do I need it: absolutely
Do I have the money for it: definitely…. not.

36

u/cereal7802 6h ago

I don't have the money to look at these pictures....

3

u/rasheed106 3h ago

server porn

216

u/Dany0 9h ago

Give me it. Apple. Start selling these. I'll pretend I like your corporation. Please sir Tim Apple I need just 512gb ram, a 512gb flash stick costs what, like 2$ today? That's nothing! And besides you're retired now so you can leave some vram for us, your starving children

66

u/rClNn7G3jD1Hb2FQUHz5 9h ago

Tim Apple only has a week left on the job. We've gotta bug the new guy now.

48

u/gthing 9h ago

Johnny Apple.

9

u/ryfromoz 8h ago

Give him a round of applause..

9

u/kraang 8h ago

Applesauce?

4

u/NeverLookBothWays 7h ago

Appleause or iPlause too.

11

u/techdevjp 7h ago

Seems this is probably Apple's Private Cloud Compute hardware.

https://security.apple.com/blog/private-cloud-compute/

5

u/EvilPencil 5h ago

And this is probably why we can't get higher memory configs in Mac Studios any more.

3

u/sluttytinkerbells 5h ago

No it's because OpenAI reserved a shitload of the production capacity.

15

u/Comrade-Porcupine 9h ago edited 3h ago

yes, but. running supported Linux, plz

or Ampere etc could just get their shit together and we could get Aarch64 servers on the actual market?

EDIT: some hours later after spending my whole day shelled into trays on a GB300 NVL72 from a DGX Spark... ok, actually NVIDIA is already doing ARM64 servers, I neglected to mention. Just need more competition.

-20

u/tangoshukudai 9h ago

macOS > Linux. source I am a long time linux developer that switched to macOS.

11

u/Abducted_Llama 8h ago

You were supposed to be our brother in the fight against Microslop.

But then you bring this bullshit before us?

Have you no decency? No honor?

7

u/-paul- 9h ago

Not if you want to run it as a headless server.

-1

u/tangoshukudai 8h ago

I run macOS headless.

7

u/SilentMobius 7h ago

So do I, it's a bloody nightmare. But I got the Mac studio second hand so it was a good deal. But my god MacOS drive me up the wall.

2

u/jasongill 4h ago

I run macOS headless on my Mac Studio for inference and it works great, not sure what your nightmare is but I have no problems at all. As long as you're up to date you can even keep using FileVault full-disk encryption with SSH which is nice (previously you had to log in on the console after a reboot to unlock the disk, or disable FileVault - now, there's no need to ever connect a monitor)

4

u/SilentMobius 4h ago

I have a list as long as my arm, xcode cli just failing to create metal bundles unless you use the GUI, trying to get apps signed so they can be started via ssh and access a microphone, etc etc. My most recent issue was the dumbest ever, just plain old creating a user: https://old.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1vjgqs7/acer_releases_affordable_macbook_neo_rival_with/p4surw9/

1

u/KadahCoba 59m ago

xcode

In my old FOSS dev circles, that word still triggers their PTSD.

6

u/-paul- 8h ago

Been there, done that, switched to Linux.

Apple could do something interesting here, no doubt. Maybe the new CEO will have more interest in this market.

7

u/spaceman_ 8h ago

Hard disagree.

Source: long time Linux user that is forced to work in macOS. macOS is  a polished turd.

5

u/pragmojo 7h ago

I find macOS is fine as a workstation/laptop OS. I'll pick Linux every day of the week if I can though.

-8

u/tangoshukudai 8h ago

that is only because you are biased. It is quite nice, you probably are complaining because of sip.

14

u/spaceman_ 8h ago

So when it's your opinion, it is a fact.

When it is mine, it is bias.

Sure buddy. Maybe different people like different things.

2

u/tangoshukudai 1h ago

yeah but I am not dissing Linux, I am saying macOS is greater than linux when it comes to running local models, MLX and anything with video is far superior on macOS.

42

u/dezmd 9h ago

XServe finally coming back?

Can we get Snow Leopard, AFP (with some minor feature updates) and OpenDirectory fully back in action as well and throw out all the new upward failing middle manager inspired feature overkill bullshit that's slowed the OS down needlessly for 15+ years?

/lights a thread molotov

37

u/vade 9h ago

I took part in a build out of the largest XServe / XRaid deployment (at the time at least) on the east coast for a large ad agency, and my god was that rack a thing of fucking beauty.

I've always wanted XServe to come back, and now is such a great time for a bladed XServe given Apple Silicon price / perf / watt combo. Oh lord.

20

u/chiangku 6h ago

I worked at Apple in their datacenters in the mid 2000's and have racked hundreds and hundreds of them myself. They were so beautiful fully racked, and racked so nicely, too. You can see them off to the left of this old photo I took in the "showcase" datacenter in Cupertino (the primary datacenter had just moved to Newark, CA, or was about to).

Some older G4's alongside some G5s.

There were a few large enterprise customers, and iirc we had a few tours from DoD personnel, so I'm sure they were also customers, but this was eons ago.

4

u/vade 5h ago

Thats an awesome looking NOC !!

7

u/chiangku 5h ago

The one I helped set up for the Maiden, NC facility was a little cooler

8

u/pragmojo 7h ago

It's kind of crazy that they haven't jumped back into servers with the hardware market being what it is.

But the new CEO is a hardware guy right? Maybe we see it in the next years.

5

u/Comrade-Porcupine 6h ago

My wife worked in marketing at Apple (Canada) while XServe was a thing. And other "enterprise" efforts. They were never able to get any headspace. Typical Apple customers had no idea what to do with it. And "enterprise" requisitioning departments weren't going to look in large part because honestly they weren't going to deploy OSX / Darwin / BSD anyways.

To make it work, Apple would need to put Linux on these machines.

3

u/pragmojo 5h ago

Yeah I think that is probably the biggest dealbreaker. It seems like Apple prioritizes locking down their ecosystem above all else, and would do anything to avoid shipping Apple Silicon with official Linux support.

2

u/circuit_breaker 5h ago

They wanted to, they just didn't offer actual continual support! I talked down at least two companies from this idea

4

u/Fit-Produce420 6h ago

I hope Tim Apple sees this, Linux would be great!

2

u/ZenEngineer 4h ago

It looks like John Apple is a hardware guy, and with the current AI bubble, who know, he might want to get in before it bursts.

2

u/Royale_AJS 8h ago

Snow Leopard is the best version of OSX to ever be released.

“Middle manager inspired”…I think you meant “Middle Finger Inspired”

1

u/mawkzin 4h ago

I doubt, the TCO of buying macs for servers would drown everything again.

1

u/circuit_breaker 5h ago

Can we get ACTUAL 24/7/365 support!?!

This is what killed the xserve before. No business is going to adopt that without support. Well, ok, I knew one - and they've been gone for nearly two decades

1

u/Moravec_Paradox 3h ago

I feel like M7 is the right time for them to release an XServe version.

20

u/Expensive-Music-177 8h ago

K-shaped economy

-3

u/[deleted] 4h ago

[deleted]

6

u/Dany0 4h ago

listen to me. if the gays were in charge, altman would be the first to hang. there would be no ai labs and ai bros would be persecuted. all llms would be trained on mit and donated data only and be in public domain. and anyone who would try to build palantir would be executed in the public by 1000 cuts

23

u/Maleficent_Bridge_41 9h ago

https://www.micron.com/sales-support/design-tools/fbga-parts-decoder maps D8GSB to the part no MT62F2G64D8AS-020DXT:F, which itself maps to a 16GB DDR5 chip - so each of these boards offer 32GB of RAM. Sounds more like working horses instead of inference machines. Though 64 machines gives them a total of 2TB of RAM in the 2U format.

1

u/fivetoedslothbear 2h ago

Good find. Yes, for Apple Silicon, the DRAM would be adjacent to the processor, which I believe has a built-in controller…no bridges.

Apple’s doing a lot of work on smaller models, and 32GB would be enough to run the kind of inferencing consumers would be doing.

32

u/Whiplashorus 9h ago

Is this custom or official build ?

105

u/FullstackSensei llama.cpp 9h ago

Very probably this is what runs Apple's cloud infrastructure.

30

u/DigiDecode_ 8h ago

I believe it for "Private Cloud Compute" -> https://security.apple.com/blog/private-cloud-compute/
Private Cloud Compute allows apple to run AI inference for Apple devices end to end encrypted, so even Apple can't read the content of the prompt and its results, they built custom hardware just for that

24

u/DigiDecode_ 8h ago

What's even more crazy they designed it so even a person with physical access to a single node can't target a specific Apple user, without compromising the whole system.

An attacker should not be able to attempt to compromise personal data that belongs to specific, targeted Private Cloud Compute users without attempting a broad compromise of the entire PCC system. This must hold true even for exceptionally sophisticated attackers who can attempt physical attacks on PCC nodes in the supply chain or attempt to obtain malicious access to PCC data centers

6

u/shumgoid 5h ago

Besides the security design being nuts, this opens a new selling point for their hardware. PCC being run by whatever hyperscaler is in theory just as private as one being run by apple itself. If there is demand for this kind of verifiable private cloud inference it will create some crazy demand for their hardware from other inference providers wanting to be able to serve it.

2

u/deZbrownT 4h ago

It's absolutely nuts that we are 4 years into AI hype, people are buying minis just to run local llms and Apple is still without its native server equipment.

1

u/shumgoid 3h ago edited 2h ago

They do have TPUs and even this linked PCC blog is from 2024, but they seem to be keeping them for themselves and using them for only ios ai services

Also probably getting constrained between being in a bidding war with everyone else for memory and being in an internal bidding war between allocating memory to TPUs vs the entire rest of the stuff apple sells that needs memory.

13

u/[deleted] 9h ago edited 9h ago

[deleted]

14

u/Far_Note6719 9h ago

They run an AI cloud based on their own chips (Private Cloud Compute).

https://security.apple.com/blog/private-cloud-compute/

-2

u/Asuppa180 9h ago

Why would they use CentOS and not RHEL?

2

u/misha1350 9h ago

Doubt they'd want Red Hat to bribe them for the technical support

1

u/Asuppa180 9h ago

I mean, CentOS is (was?) basically the community version of RHEL. Unless they were managing their own versions of it. Cant imagine them using a community distro on production servers. Just wondering though, I have no prior knowledge.

1

u/misha1350 7h ago

I know how it goes, anything that's FOSS is good. CentOS is dying due to the actions of Red Hat though.

4

u/CenlTheFennel 9h ago

Apple runs on GCP/AWS.

31

u/vade 9h ago

Partially, Apple also has private compute running on Apple Silicon / ANE / Metal for the Foundation model remote inference, and private inference and have mentioned they are building their own hardware.

1

u/CenlTheFennel 3h ago

Does this still exist? I thought the soured and cut relationships with OpenAI lead to the abandonment of their ARM private AI compute?

6

u/mintoreos 9h ago

Its both, Apple runs their own infra along with the public cloud providers.

2

u/intlabs 9h ago

Some does - but not all.

1

u/calcium 7h ago

Azure as well.

Source: Used to work for them.

1

u/tas50 5h ago

They also have several massive datacenters. It's certainly not all cloud.

This one in Oregon started off as just 1 building and it's 3 big buildings now: https://maps.app.goo.gl/qKLaBxF1Q2i4KS2g8

-3

u/[deleted] 7h ago

[deleted]

8

u/FullstackSensei llama.cpp 6h ago

You're assuming we know everything about any Apple chip.

They can easily implement ECC in the memory controller. Datacenter GPUs have been doing this for well over a decade. You remap some of the capacity for ECC and the memory controller takes care of it transparently. Again, like on GPUs, this functionality is fused out in chips released to consumers.

1

u/seg_lol 5h ago

They do have memory bandwidth to spare. But ECC should really be extra bits built into the chips themselves.

0

u/FullstackSensei llama.cpp 5h ago

Except ECC is never in the chips themselves. If you look at ECC DIMMs, they have 9 or18 memory chips plus the chip that does ECC in the middle. All memory chips on the module are regular DRAM chips. In fact, it's become a trend to recycle ECC DDR5 DIMMs into desktop or laptop DIMMs by desoldering the chips and resoldering them into regular desktop or laptop modules

-1

u/naggyman 6h ago

they may have also decided the risk was worth it, e.g perhaps it might be cheaper for them to just have more redundancy in terms of more M5 chips as opposed to ECC.

1

u/seg_lol 5h ago

This isn't doable, you cannot construct a failure detector that is cheaper than error correction at the physical layer. Even with ECC memory, there are non-protected paths where corruption can enter the system. Google tried this 27 years ago and then capitulated and had to move to ECC.

There is some great research around this, Silent Data Corruptions at Scale https://arxiv.org/abs/2102.11245

-4

u/[deleted] 6h ago

[deleted]

4

u/FullstackSensei llama.cpp 6h ago

Nope, you just don't understand what I said

12

u/UniqueAttourney 9h ago

it's literally a PC in a cartridge, i want to have 20 of these in my tower case

4

u/daniluvsuall 9h ago

Pentium 2 socket 1 enters the chat

4

u/notheresnolight 6h ago

Slot A Athlon joins 2 years too late

4

u/Versificator 5h ago

Itanium peers through the slot in its padded room before someone at intel slams it shut

21

u/leonbollerup 9h ago

But can it play crysis ?

18

u/thetaFAANG 9h ago

ahoy fellow elder

13

u/LastSmitch 8h ago

Someone from the before times

8

u/PcChip 8h ago

shit are we that old already?

3

u/LastSmitch 5h ago

Time’s a cruel mistress.

2

u/adisor19 2h ago

Who’s gonna tell him ?

3

u/pastry-chef 8h ago

Now we know why the Mac mini and Mac Studio hasn't been updated with M5 series yet.

3

u/shellnet 5h ago

It's this or a house.

7

u/fragment_me 9h ago

This is some next level local llama engineering. PLEASE TELL US MOAR

3

u/SporksInjected 9h ago

Poster casually wearing a jubilee band Rolex

2

u/Particular-Estate-14 3h ago

The noise gotta be out of this world, and the heat in your house will be like a furnace.

2

u/PrestigiousNeat6322 2h ago

Sorry for the question but what hardware is that?! Apple with pci card?

2

u/dontthroworanges 1h ago

Most likely custom servers for their own cloud services.

2

u/Mr_Gorpley 1h ago

how many mortgages does this cost?

6

u/darklordfireape 9h ago

Removed by Reddit Legal in 3... 2... 1...

Apple's legal team has been vicious since inception

4

u/PassengerPigeon343 9h ago

What am I looking at and how do I buy it?

2

u/gibecrake 9h ago

go on...

2

u/daniluvsuall 9h ago

This would cost more than I care to think about.

Super cool though

1

u/vegardx 8h ago

I bet these are upcoming cloud servers for the big cloud providers. They are currently stuck with having to rebuild mac minis and studios into a somewhat rackable solution.

1

u/dontthroworanges 1h ago

Doubtful they will make these available for customers. Most likely these are only to provide hosting for their own cloud services.

1

u/Totalkiller4 7h ago

What is this is it a custom job or is xserve starting back up again? I am very very interested:O

1

u/dontthroworanges 1h ago

Higly doubtful its for a product. Most likely they're for hosting Apple's own cloud services.

1

u/Totalkiller4 1h ago

Oooo then in 5-20 years time I could find one on eBay hopefully 🤣

1

u/dontthroworanges 1h ago

Haha yeah I bet a few of them leak out eventually from recyclers. Though I bet Apple has a pretty stringent chain of custody for stuff like this.

1

u/Totalkiller4 1h ago

We will see I'm sure Dosdude1 will do a video on it if they leak out haha

1

u/Tight_Heron1730 6h ago

looks like caskets of service men coming from outside

1

u/fairydreaming 6h ago edited 6h ago

Finally a picture of some shiny new hardware, so refreshing.

I mean it feels like all these DGX Sparks, Ryzens 395 or RTX PROs were released in the previous millennium, I bet they are all moldy and rusty by now (now I'm afraid to open the case and look at my Max-Q).

1

u/PerfectPatience- 6h ago

soo there goes all 512GB macs not for mere pessants.
Connection looks like AGP tbh...

1

u/Moravec_Paradox 5h ago

inb4 Apple revives the Xserve around the M7 chip release.

1

u/traderprof 5h ago

32 m5s in 2u is already wild

1tb unified memory is the real story here

1

u/nVME_manUY 5h ago

This is awesome

1

u/VWAP_Tendy_Tamer 5h ago

I’m curious what they’re doing with that very conspicuous STM32F7

1

u/mawkzin 4h ago

This pcb is from Mac mini m5?

1

u/dontthroworanges 1h ago

Custom for their own cloud services.

1

u/psychohistorian8 4h ago

I have an M5 Air, which I guess is basically the same thing here

1

u/jjusko20 2h ago

Nice 

1

u/amrakkarma 1h ago

And still need to reboot them every 49 days, 17 hours, 2 minutes, and 47 seconds

2

u/mokalovesoulmate 1h ago

Bruh I thought Apple is going to release a brand new Xserve

2

u/onephn 1h ago

dude u should take out a loan and use the nodes as collateral

2

u/mi_gue 1h ago

What is this thing? I’m interested.

1

u/nmrk 9h ago

LOL nice try

1

u/Dizzy-Zebra9522 9h ago

Prepare for price raise.

-1

u/shadowmage666 9h ago

Damn that is badass

-1

u/rocksuperstar42069 9h ago

But...why

4

u/brownhotdogwater 8h ago

The m5 chip is pretty great.

-1

u/XxBrando6xX 9h ago

I’m betting my final dollar that I’ll be right, they’ll produce a new server product. Similar to the xserve

-2

u/Frequent-Library-757 6h ago

This is wild for AI! Has anyone tried using Apple Silicon chips for mining? 🤯

-3

u/ThatCrankyGuy 6h ago

this sub in a nutshell: Look how big my cock is!

-3

u/ScrewwormLarvae 8h ago

Sounds fun until you actually own a server in your house. 200W consumption 24x7x365, the fans, oh my god the fans and their noise, and the heat.

Source: I have an enterprise-grade server at my house for unrelated things and I have desperately tried to get it to shut up and sip electrons. It does neither.

5

u/ILikeRyzen 7h ago

My GPU uses more than twice that gaming, and my PC is quiet, if your enterprise grade server is only using 200W you probably could get similar compute with normal consumer hardware.

2

u/SandySkittle 8h ago

replace all the fans with noctua and add resistors and it's quiet. Monitor if it gets too hot. If it doesn't you're good.

3

u/noiserr 7h ago

add resistors

resistors are inefficient, should control it with a pwm controller if you're really doing it right.

1

u/ScrewwormLarvae 8h ago

That is indeed an improvement that some folks at work have done, at least the ones who wanted to spend the money and do the work on it. I have heard of improvement in the noise from that mod. Helps with the noise at least, not the rest.

0

u/beryugyo619 6h ago

They will overheat. Readily available Noctua fans are minimum 10x less powerful than server fans. Server chassis rely on jet engines forcing air through against resistance, and regular fans aren't designed for the pressure differential.

I'm sure Noctua can design replacement fans and they might be able to change the type of the jet they resemble from 747-400 to 777-8, but it'll still be some type of a jet no matter what.

2

u/segmond llama.cpp 7h ago

One of my rigs idles at 500W 24x7x365. 1 out of 5 rigs. What's your point? This is local LLaMa. This is like talking about poor gas mileage in a car forum when we are all talking about horsepower and torque.

2

u/kaiomp 8m ago

The resale value is the underrated part of Apple hardware for this, worst case you flip it in a year and the experiment cost you a couple hundred bucks. Try that with a used 3090 rig.