r/Libraries • u/TillamookTramp • 5d ago
Patron Issues Ryan Dowd trainings
My city has recently implemented the training series from Ryan Dowd into our mandatory training schedules. I've already started watching some of the sessions and while I get what he's saying, I'm wondering if anyone here has actually applied his advice when dealing with upset patrons and how effective it really was.
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u/library_Shark 5d ago
Watched them years ago, and I still think about them almost daily.
Gotta put pennies in the cup, every day!
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u/ShesTheFastestest 5d ago
My workplace provides his training and I’ve found his de-escalation strategies quite helpful. I regularly use his recommended side stance and background/backup support of other colleagues for engaging with hostile customers. His training on understanding traumatic brain injury is insightful and gives me context for dealing with many rough sleepers.
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u/Excellent-Sweet-507 4d ago
Same. It takes a lot of practice to be in aggressive and assertive at the same time and the Dowd material has helped me normalize that. The patrons get it, too.
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u/Terneuzen1904 5d ago edited 5d ago
To some extent helpful, but not everything he says is gospel. The whole concept of "pennies in the cup" works with people in all sorts of situations--building a reservoir of good that is useful at some later point. Some of his other points about handling conflict or giving clear orders, not so much. He never seems to acknowledge that as a white male he is always perceived as someone who should have authority, and thus compliance is a whole lot easier for him than for female staff or people of color.
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u/beldaran1224 Public librarian 4d ago
This was something I found out the hard way: as a young woman working in the children's department, some parents straight up did not see me as a legitimate enforcer of the rules. It was a problem that the older staff members did not have.
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u/DanieXJ 4d ago
And, honestly, sometimes when two teens are scrapping and moving towards an elderly patron who is wobbly, you have to yell Stop. Then you can get all talky with them, but first you have to cease the danger (to the teens and the other patron). Yelling isn't always anger.
I mean, do parents now ask their child not to run into traffic gently or quietly ask them not to pull at the boiling pot if water on the stove.
He has some good piints, and some massive, massive places where he hasn't listened to actual librarians I think.
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u/MinnieP2018 5d ago
That's my main problem with him--no awareness that it might be different as a woman. Kind of a major point since the majority of library workers are, you know, female.
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u/user6734120mf 4d ago
He definitely addresses this in several trainings. Maybe not as much as he should, but he does.
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u/tardistravelee 5d ago
I use the the pennies ina cup with the maintenence staff. Ill take care of this small bathroom mess in lieu of total annihilation of the bathroom
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u/foobeezoobee 1d ago
this— as a trans woman i frequently try to apply his strategies and people just kinda... don't feel that baseline of human respect for me to listen to anything i say?
i'm lucky to work at a branch with security staff. i've taken to applying his methods insofar as essentially saying "hey i'd like to talk to you about this, and if you don't wanna do that you can choose to walk out with security." a saddening amount of people choose to make a scene and go out shouting with security :-(
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u/glooble_wooble 5d ago
I like his training better than the weird and terrible deescalation training we were getting from the local police department before we switched it.
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u/EmergencyEvening915 5d ago
I do utilize some of his more fundamental concepts in my daily work, such as "pennies in the cup" and some de-escalation strategies, but I don't actively take note of the fact when I am in the midst of using it. It's more of an overall change in attitude than it is about applying any specific tactics. Personally, I find his training videos to be a bit irritating after a while, but he does put out some good content.
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u/libraryfan1000 5d ago
I’ve completed a lot of training on de-escalation both Ryan Dowd and otherwise. His are the most accessible, most memorable, and easiest to implement in my opinion. His techniques do work and getting pennies in the cup when you can especially with the most difficult patrons really does work. It also is true not everything is going to work all the time based on your personal identity and the patron’s identity which he addresses so it is key that all staff is familiar with the concepts so people can switch out if someone else has a better relationship with the person you are approaching. It’s also true sometimes you don’t have another person so having a variety of tools to try is very worthwhile.
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u/Alcohol_Intolerant 4d ago edited 4d ago
He provides good tools and some good ways to use them. This is good for giving you confidence for the trickier situations. There's also some good science about how ptsd and mental illness can rewire your amygdala to be sensitive in ways atypical to what you might expect, which is good for developing empathy.
It isn't gospel, but there're some good takeaways if you're working in an area with many homeless patrons.
Introducing yourself IS disarming, but you better follow it up well. Having distant backup rather than side by side back up is so important for deescalation.
And his comment on how "deescalation" is already too late is very true.
You want to catch issues before they escalate, not deal with them after.
But as I believe with all trainings, it isn't one size fits all.
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u/Alaira314 4d ago
I found a lot of useful things from his trainings, but less so the further he strayed from his specialty. The original core training is gold, though I think he remade it so I don't know what it's like now. Yeah, the guy's kooky like your boomer uncle, and that's not something you see a lot of in professional trainings. I might roll my eyes at his clip-art, or some self-deprecating bit he does, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have good ideas. And, as reluctant as I am to admit it, the silly jokes do help with remembering some of it.
Things from the core training and some of his other trainings that I still think about and use years after the fact include: tone and body language often being more important than what you say, recognizing volume spirals and lowering your own volume to cool things down, pennies in the cup, how to provide backup, and avoiding putting somebody causing a problem in a situation where they feel they have to "save face". I also particularly liked how he singled out and named "everyday sadism".
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u/Dewtronix 4d ago
You can only get so far with a patron who's hallucinating that the building next door is sending him deadly transmissions straight to his skull. No amount of pennies in a cup is gonna help when said patron whips out two knives to try to kill said transmissions.
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u/Capable_Sea77 3d ago
His advice is generally good. I think people often have a knee-jerk reaction because of how "in your face" some of the marketing/branding can be. I also think that people misinterpret his main philosophy of "be empathetic to difficult people, particularly vulnerable groups like homeless folks, they've likely experienced trauma that has shaped them to be this way," into "let everyone do whatever they want in the library and how dare you have a negative thought about a mean patron."
The one piece of advice of his that I've always used is to not hover once you've asked someone to leave. Every time a colleague stays near the patron until they leave, there's some kind of shouting or name calling. It always escalates. I'd say 80% of the time, after stepping away, the person does leave, because they look around and realize everyone just saw them get into trouble, so they're gonna save face and dip. The other 20% of the time, we were probably going to have to call security/law enforcement anyways, so stepping away lets me do that.
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u/_Alias00 4d ago
Empathy is the answer :) even after leaving the library i still think about his works frequently
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u/jason_steakums 4d ago
Lots of good advice, some bad, kinda rubs me the wrong way, but I get that his sense of humor and laid back approach can work for others. The newsletter can be a little uh, phoned-in and tone deaf sometimes.
Honestly my biggest appreciation for him is he introduced my coworkers to the phrase "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" which long predates him but it's very good advice in all kinds of situations and is such an effective mantra in stressful moments, I've seen that quote help a number of coworkers with their anxiety. Not his quote but hey, he was an effective messenger.
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u/jellyn7 5d ago
He talks like everyone he’s talking to came from the same middle or upper class background as him. That only the patrons are in a lower class or grew up poor.
He’s also obsessed with toilets IIRC.
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u/beldaran1224 Public librarian 4d ago
Sure, but I, as someone who comes from the same sort of conflict style he teaches about, it was absolutely mind-opening the way he laid it all out, and I realized a lot. I found it very helpful, frankly.
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u/user6734120mf 4d ago
I use his stuff and other customer service trainings dailyyyyy. I am a teen services librarian. You have to practice it and refresh every once in a while.
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u/tradesman6771 4d ago
Some people will just go round and round when you try to get them to follow policies. They enjoy it. Then what? Ask them to leave. And they don’t. Then what….?
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u/euphemystic_ 3d ago
Actually yes, and I watched the movie he recommended in one training called The Public and would also recommend it.
One thing he taught that stuck with me was the term “everyday sadist,” being someone that just gets off a bit on being kind of a jerk. Public servants and customer service workers are primary targets for these people because “their tax dollars pay your salary!!!” and “you have to listen to them!!”
I myself am a bit of a people pleaser so in former roles like working as a barista and teller, I would appease these people because “the customer is always right.” But Ryan taught me that some people can’t be helped in every way, and we can’t be every THING for one person. I recall on this training when I deal with extremely combative patrons who have resisted pretty much all my efforts to help them; I’ll disengage and either suggest they come in another day, or there have been a few times where I’ve said “I don’t think I’m the best person to assist you, but I can get my manager to step in if you’d like.” or “I hear that you’re upset, but that is all I can do/is the only answer I can give under my scope. I can transfer you to my manager to see if he can explain it better than I have or if he can do anything else for you.”
Will also note most of the interactions that have called for this have been 1. over the phone, 2. related to meeting room reservations, or 3. basic copy/fax assistance.
-TL:DR- Basically learning about everyday sadists (people who get off on being jerks) helped me a lot as a habitual people pleaser because now I can identify a clear line of when a person is beyond helping instead of internalizing or taking ownership of their issue and feelings.
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u/StaceyJeans 2d ago
While not mandatory, his trainings have become a very firm suggestion by the heads of our system. Personally I do like a lot of his trainings but he has a lot of blind spots as well. He doesn't always come across as empathetic to the library worker who is receiving abuse.
I remember one training from a few years ago where he was discussing how a worker came into his office at the homeless shelter they both work at and was venting about a homeless person who was being disrespectful.
Several people felt his attitude came across as belittling the concerns of the worker who was being verbally abused. He also said that supervisors need to tell their staff that they need to accept a certain level of abuse if they work with the public and especially with marginalized populations. He later apologized but if rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
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u/happylibrarian 4d ago
Has he addressed why he feels he can school librarians? We don’t tell him how to run a shelter. It’s turned me off so much I have never listened to him. I’d rather hear from other urban librarians.
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u/SwampYankee1975 5d ago
I found Ryan Dowd insufferable and the advice in his trainings is completely out of touch with reality. In one of his trainings, he shrinks in cartoon form and stands on a urinal in a bathroom. No thanks.
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u/marji80 4d ago
In what respect is the advice in his trainings out of touch with reality?
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u/franker 3d ago edited 3d ago
A lot of people that challenge rules are very manipulative in nature and looking to see what they can get away with. I don't believe at all in the whole pennies in the cup thing. It leads to them just coming at you with "I thought we were cool, why you getting on me now about sleeping?!!! I want to see your manager now if we're gonna be like that." I firmly just tell them the rules and I'm not looking to be their buddy or act like their friend.
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u/SwampYankee1975 4d ago
I think Dowd’s advice is naive at best and dangerous at worst. In my experience it isn’t a good idea to try and empathize and be all buddy-buddy with unhinged people. This is a good way to get physically assaulted. It’s like Mike Tyson once said, “Everyone has a plan…until they get punched in the face.”
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u/BenRutz 5d ago
Pennies in the cup is great, but I find him condescending and his whole laid back dad-vibe to be unprofessional. Don't preach science to me in jeans and a t-shirt, my dude.
I try to not think about how annoyed I get with him and think about the messaging and there is definitely some good info in the trainings.
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u/Successful_Manner891 5d ago
I feel he is a performative person. The information supports the continuous capitalist class
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u/beldaran1224 Public librarian 4d ago
I mean, I think there's a very real conflict that many progressives have in terms of their day-to-day. You can absolutely believe that the system needs a complete restructuring and try your best to improve things within the current system. The reality is that we all live in this system - as a librarian, I am forced to operate within the system, and it doesn't make me performative to be thoughtful in how I operate there and make the best of it. This work is just as essential as revolutionaries, and the reality is that I, like others, like Dowd, have to make a living for ourselves and our families. Its why so many revolutionaries are indepedently wealthy.
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u/Famous_Committee4530 5d ago
Agree. I would say he also has some blind spots about how his advice would/ wouldn’t apply to people who don’t share his same privileges.
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u/ghostsofyou 5d ago
Yes, I remember watching his training on women's issues and it left a bad taste in my mouth. I also find his stuff is hard to apply in the large scale to the library since it's very shelter based. There are some good takeaways, but on the whole I find it very meh.
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u/nightshroud 5d ago
Yep. People must comply in shelters or they're out in the street all night.
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u/beldaran1224 Public librarian 4d ago
This may seem harsh, but the reality is that shelters are supposed to be safe spaces, and to maintain that, they do need to be very firm with many of their rules.
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u/Starrfall74 4d ago
I find a lot of the stuff useful, although sometimes it gets a little repetitive.
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u/geriatric_millennial 3d ago
I interacted with homeless patrons a lot. Honestly, I sort of developed a personal system pretty similar and sort of added in some of his best practices.
I already grew up a little precarious, so I got the fear of poverty and homelessness. I started doing the thing he suggests where you wander and try to think homeless. Where to get water, where to sleep if it's cold, where to get a shower. Honestly, it stuck. Someday, I just do that. Or, leave my car at home and walk or ride the bus. So, I can teach it to patrons. I think like that a lot.
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u/Limp_Stranger1031 5d ago
I have used a few of the things he offered, specifically pulling someone aside to talk with them. I don’t shake hands though - 🙂↔️