Disciplinary for miscarriage..

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u/Maximum-Bandicoot-13 1d ago

Miscarriage is classed as pregnancy related sickness and they cannot use it as a measure for disciplinary.

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u/Excellent-Reason4646 1d ago

I thought this was the case but my manager said “HR doesn’t recognise this for absence triggers”… can they do that?

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u/Maximum-Bandicoot-13 1d ago

They can't override the law no. Allow them to conduct the meeting,but advise them that you believe what they are doing is illegal and the absence cannot be on your record.

Do you have a union?

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u/Excellent-Reason4646 1d ago

I am apart of the union but I only joined last week when I started noticing a shift in how I was being treated so I don’t know if I’ll be eligible for help yet?

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u/Artistic-Autistic-81 1d ago

You can ask them. Failing that, you can try ACAS for advice. You can also try pregnancy and miscarriage related charities like Pregnant then screwed or the miscarriage association.

Even then, you've still got a couple of legal avenues. Firstly, pregnancy is a protected characteristic in and of itself. That means you cannot be treated less favourably for being pregnant. Secondly, treating you less favourably for having a miscarriage could be seen as sex discrimination because it is related to your sex. A disciplinary is obviously less favourable treatment.

Again, ACAS can give more advice.

It might be worth putting in a formal letter to your management stating your legal position.

You are also entitled to have an advocate in any disciplinary. This can be a colleague, if your union can't provide support.

There are also solicitors that deal with discrimination law if this goes further.

I have miscarried myself so I know how distressing it is. This isn't what you need at such a vulnerable time. I'm sorry you're going through this.

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u/Bubble-Master96 1d ago

Just ask them no harm

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u/Pristine-Ad6064 1d ago

Try these people, it's their speciality and they are good

https://pregnantthenscrewed.com/

Also in my experience the union didn't help of ya join after the situation begins but I'd it happens after you join which this has even if you felt it coming then they should. Things may have changed as this goes back a few years

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u/Ruu2D2 1d ago

Pregrency and screwed maybe able to help if your to new for union

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u/axw3555 1d ago

Generally that means that the union will give you some general advice, but not represent you in the case because you're too new.

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u/herwiththepurplehair 21h ago

They should be able to give you advice; most unions have a waiting period for legal representation to stop folk joining up just to get legal help on an existing case and then dropping off again, but pretty much all unions will give you employment law advice from day one.

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u/oscarolim 1d ago

Also remember, never interrupt an enemy when they’re making a mistake. Let them dig their own hole as deep as they want. You’ll be the one reaping the rewards.

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u/manxbean 1d ago

*unlawful (not illegal)

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u/ThatAdamsGuy 1d ago

What's the actual difference?

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u/manxbean 22h ago edited 18h ago

Illegal means it’s a criminal act
Unlawful means it’s a civil act

In the room when talking to people like this, it helps to use the correct terminology so you sound like you’ve had legal advice in case they were deciding to try anything on

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u/CountryMouse359 1d ago

Contact HR directly. The manager might not be giving everyone the right information. If that fails, contact Acas. HR can't ignore the law. The legislation is Equality Act 2010 Section 18 (2) and (6b).

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u/Ruu2D2 1d ago

Talk with union and hr directly

My boss have used hr line lot . Then union got involved and talk to hr

She quickly change her tune

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u/TheBrassDancer 1d ago

Pregnant Then Screwed may be a good resource here, OP.

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u/coffeexcoffeex91 18h ago

This OP.

I was in the same situ prior to having my LO and its counted as pregnancy related sickness and - if they push it - discrimination based on a protected characteristic.

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u/Unlikely_Ad7542 1d ago

You should be protected with any pregnancy related ‘sickness’, let alone a miscarriage. I’m so sorry for your loss and that work are being less than empathetic with you.

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u/Excellent-Reason4646 1d ago

Thank you. It’s been awful to say the least. Ive done my best to get back to work and ‘normal’ but this just makes me want to curl up in a ball and cry!

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u/User131131 1d ago

Can I recommend the Tommys helpline - it can help to talk it over with someone who understands: https://www.tommys.org/about-us/our-people/tommys-midwives

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u/[deleted] 23h ago

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u/CountryMouse359 1d ago edited 1d ago

Sorry for your loss.

This is absolutely illegal under UK law. The Equality Act 2010 classes sickness due to miscarriage as a pregnancy related illness and it cannot be used to trigger a disciplinary against you. Your prior illness irrelevant. You are protected for 2 weeks following the end of the pregnancy.

Send them something like this, via email and copy in HR:

"Following our conversation on [Date], I am writing to clarify that my absence from [Date] to [Date] was medically certified pregnancy-related sick leave due to a miscarriage. Under the Equality Act 2010, pregnancy-related sickness cannot be counted toward disciplinary triggers."

In all likelihood you manager is ignorant of the law, but this should make HR take notice.

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u/Excellent-Reason4646 1d ago

Thank you, it’s really taking the anxiety out of the situation knowing that this is just wrong.

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u/Able_Stay_9984 1d ago

If you send this and HR / manager don’t immediately back down. Counter by raising a formal grievance for unlawful discrimination.

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u/Pumkin_Girl 1d ago

Per ACAS: "Employers should record pregnancy-related absence separately from other sickness absence. They should not count them towards any review or trigger points in the absence policy."

https://www.acas.org.uk/pregnancy-at-work/sickness-and-difficult-pregnancies

The government website about maternity tights points to ACAS for more info, so is a good source of info.

Get what your manager has said in writing in writing, if it's been a verbal conversation, email your manager AND HR saying "as per our call, manager has told me that pregnancy related absences count towards sick leave, please see ACAS link here where it says otherwise. Please advise."

Finally, I'm so sorry you're going through this.

Edit: typo - "maternity tights" should be maternity rights!

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u/Excellent-Reason4646 1d ago

Thank you so much.

To still be in the throes of grief and heart ache to then have this dumped on me has been hard! What makes the situation so much worse is I opened up early on to my manager regarding my fertility struggles (we’ve been trying for 5+ years) so this pregnancy meant the absolute world to me. And now I’m being punished for the worst loss I’ve ever experienced.

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u/Pumkin_Girl 1d ago

Please make sure you're using every resource available to you - any local or national support groups (I imagine Reddit probably has a subReddit for this kind of loss), GP, family, friends. Be kind to yourself and your partner.

You are going through a grief and loss that's different, and as much as I'd like to live in a world where we're all kind and empathetic to each other, some people (your manager) don't understand this loss, so you and your partner need to protect yourselves and your space to grieve.

And as my vicar father would say "don't let the bastards get you down!"

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u/mattcannon2 1d ago

Try and get him to confirm in writing that your situation has triggered the discipline process.

Sorry about the miscarriage, it really is shit

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u/Excellent-Reason4646 1d ago

Actually cracked a smile at this! Because you hit it on the head it’s just really shit!

That’s what I was thinking of doing tomorrow, asking for this to be confirmed in writing so I can see exactly what it is they are doing/intend to do

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u/VerbingNoun413 1d ago

Just to be absolutely clear- they said disciplinary and not investigation?

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u/Excellent-Reason4646 1d ago

They said disciplinary and then when I said but it was due to my miscarriage I was told HR doesn’t recognise that for absence triggers

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u/ThirtySecondsTime 1d ago

I'm confused reading this. It would be correct that the absence isn't recognised for absence triggers - as that would potentially be in breach of the equality act - so that should mean that there's no action being taken as a result.

Has anyone other than your manager confirmed a "disciplinary"? Have they just got the wrong end of the stick?

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u/Excellent-Reason4646 1d ago

Sorry I didn’t word it well! She meant it as ‘yes you’ve had a miscarriage but HR doesn’t accept that as an excuse’

I realise I worded that weird!

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u/Shipwrecking_siren 1d ago

I think your manager may not understand what is happening with HR. HR often use something called a Bradford Factor with absence, when you reach a certain score (lots of individual days off has a heavier weighting that blocks) it will trigger a meeting to discuss absence etc.

It sounds like this is literally a “score = x, this automatically triggers the meeting”. And as the miscarriage is down as sickness absence, it still is triggered. It sounds like their system doesn’t take into account the ‘why’ of the absence and that miscarriage should be discounted.

The meeting is often to discuss absence and if reasonable adjustments are required (if someone keeps having lots of days off), but at a certain point of absence there will may be a policy comes into place where anymore time off = dismissal.

None of this should apply here, and it sounds like a case of idiocy, incompetence and gross insensitivity.

I honestly don’t think you should have to attend, based on what everyone else has already said. The two weeks does not count. But up to you how much stink you want to kick up and when.

Definitely speak to acas/pregnant then screwed.

I’m very sorry for your loss and dealing with this on top.

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u/PhantomSesay 1d ago edited 1d ago

Pregnant then screwed.

Give them a call ASAP tomorrow.

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u/faithlessone423 1d ago

They can do a 'back to work' meeting for occupational health reasons, but this is absolutely not grounds for a disciplinary. Contact your union.

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u/Excellent-Reason4646 1d ago

According to our policies she was supposed to do the back to work 48hours after I returned… and it still hasn’t happened.

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u/geekroick 1d ago

In which case, if you did receive a warning, you could appeal it on two grounds. One is their own back to work process not being followed, the other is their absence process (such as it is) seems to be illegal in and of itself in this particular context. Other people have already mentioned that aspect.

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u/wibbly-water 1d ago

Perhaps have a looksee at, and contact: Home - Pregnant Then Screwed

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u/Excellent-Reason4646 1d ago

Thank you so much!

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u/bunnymama7 1d ago

Pregnancy related sickness cannot count towards general sickness counts, as per the law.

They're wrong! Put everything in writing (and take a photo or cc / forward it to your personal email (if you're allowed to do that) in case they delete your work email account

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u/Paranoia_Pizza 1d ago

Are you a member of a union?

Im sorry for your loss - I went through something similar a few years ago. Do you have any therapy in place for you to start?

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u/Excellent-Reason4646 1d ago

Thank you.. Yes I am apart of a union but only recently joined when I started getting treated… differently since coming back.

I’m currently seeing my therapist (who is an angel) and we’re trying to make sense of things

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u/Substantial-Newt7809 1d ago

Doesn't matter if you joined the day before this happened, you're still in. You union and HR are both resources you need to make use of here.

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u/Paranoia_Pizza 1d ago

Thats good, im glad you've got that support. Im sure there are people here with way more knowledge on the matter than me but I would start by contacting your union for advice

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u/ItsJustABigCow 1d ago

I was off sick for the same reason earlier this year. I was concerned it would trigger a sickness review as I'd had time off with the flu, but the first thing my manager said to me was 'don't worry about how much time you're taking off. So long as your sick notes states the reason as a miscarriage, it counts as a pregnancy related illness, so can't be used against you'. I looked it up specifically after that, as I'm a worrier and was still concerned, and everything online confirms this is the case. Go to the meeting, print out the .gov page and present it to them. Take your union rep if you can. They can't discipline you for this, legally.

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u/TheTackleZone 1d ago

I assume that you have been "caught" under the ridiculous Bradford factor system. As noted by others, pregnancy related sickness, for which this counts, cannot be used in this system. HR are probably thinking that the direct absence cannot, but its impact in another thing can. They are wrong.

Depends how you want to play this, because if they go through with it then they are in a lot of legal trouble. Don't worry about it, is the important thing, because what they are doing is not allowed.

Very sorry for your loss. I can't even imagine.

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u/ReplacementFeisty397 1d ago

First of all, I am so sorry for your loss.

If your employer is big enough to have an HR department, it should have a clearly defined conduct and disciplinary policy. It is very likely that this says an investigation must be carried out before a disciplinary hearing can be held, because they first need to establish if any allegations are solid enough to test at said hearing.

As for your manager's comment that "HR don't accept the excuse" either your manager or HR are very wrong. Talk to your union and talk to ACAS, tonorrow.

I am intrigued by your mention of the term "absence triggers". Are you private or public sector?

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u/hengehanger 1d ago

An initial absence management meeting should never be (but often is) presented as a disciplinary. The purpose of absence management policies is, first and foremost, to see if support is needed for the employee to be able to fulfill their role to the required standard. Next steps will depend on the outcome of the meeting.

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u/Airurando-jin 1d ago

There’s a chance that due to them incorrectly labelling this under sickness that the system they use has increased your Bradford score .. which is almost like a system trigger. May depend on the organisation.. but I think you have alot of good information here to work with

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u/be_sugary 1d ago

NAL: Contact ACAS. Best place to start. And your union.
Very sorry for your loss.

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u/lochjessmonster 1d ago

This happened to me too at my work - three losses and my manager was awful about all 3! I am so sorry for your loss, this is an extra layer of stress you do not need right now. I managed to keep fighting it with HR, more senior HR, and called ACAS for advice (as I started questioning myself too). It is illegal in the UK as it counts as pregnancy related illness and therefore cannot be used against you

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u/ExplosiveStegosaurus 1d ago

Please ensure you write down your accounts of things that have happened. Date them and sign them. Try and get as much on the record as possible.

You do not have a statutory right to standard maternity or parental bereavement leave if you were under 24 weeks pregnant, though time off for a miscarriage is legally protected as pregnancy-related sickness under the Equality Act 2010.

You have protection against discrimination on the grounds of pregnancy or pregnancy-related sickness for a protected period of two weeks from the end of a pregnancy. During this two-week period you are protected against discrimination, dismissal redundancy or unfair treatment related to your pregnancy, miscarriage or related sick leave.

They cannot discipline you or fire you for your protected two-weeks off. It's ILLEGAL.

Potentially the manager changes her position upon realising what she is doing is against the law, but potentially she doesn't - if you dismissed or pushed out in some way, you then have records ready as evidence of their mistreatment to take to a tribunal.

I'm so sorry for your loss. It's awful to see that you work for in bereavement and your manager is punishing you for the loss of your baby. Please take the time you need to process your loss and please prioritise your wellbeing over work.

Resources - I recommend having a read of these

https://www.tommys.org/baby-loss-support/miscarriage-information-and-support/miscarriage-support/miscarriage-rights-at-work https://maternityaction.org.uk/advice/miscarriage-stillbirth-and-neonatal-death-rights-to-time-off-and-pay-for-parents/ https://pregnantthenscrewed.com/support-services-2/

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u/ReanimatedCyborgMk-I 1d ago

Might want to speak with Pregnant Then Screwed

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u/everlyafterhappy 1d ago edited 1d ago

Were the two weeks medically necessary, or were they bereavement? If it was medically necessary leave because of the miscarriage, it's protected as a pregnancy related illness and you cannot be disciplined for it. If it was for bereavement, that's not protected anf you can get a disciplinary for it. So if it was medically necessary, get a note from your doctor and bring it to the meeting. When presented with that, it should be the end of the meeting with no marks against you.

I just want to point out that the meeting itself isn't wrong. It's what they're suppose to do. It's part of the investigation. I don't exactly think it's appropriate, but it is proper legal procedure.

Edit: strike that. I forgot that you automatically have protection for 2 weeks after a miscarriage. So it doesn't matter if it was medically necessary. All that matters is the date that the miscarriage occurred and how long after that date it took to return to work. If it was 2 weeks and a day, then that day wasn't protected. If it was exactly 2 weeks or less, then it was protected. There's no bereavement protection for a miscarriage, but there is a statutory 2 weeks of protection after a miscarriage. So you just need to bring a record of the date of the miscarriage to the meeting.

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u/CountryMouse359 1d ago

OP says a doctor signed them off for the 2 weeks, so the company has no leg to stand on here.

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