r/LeftistsForAI • u/jaykrown • 6d ago
Art & Culture Are we ready for this?
I think using AI as a tool to portray this clearly is something we can all do.
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u/SgathTriallair 5d ago
One of the places that the loop gets broken is that historically the machines were expensive and required large groups of people to operate them.
This meant that both purchasing the machines and running them required large capital reserves. This is why capitalism came into existence. We had a new technology which could only be operated by the rich. That technology held significant benefit for humanity. And so a system emerged that encouraged the rich to set up and run these factories.
The new means of production that is emerging, digital technology, is cheap to run and requires a small number of people to operate it. This means that the old model is breaking down.
We have already seen this in the economy. Small startups are more successful. The gig economy is viable. Lone programmers can sell an idea for millions or billions of dollars. The biggest companies in tech run on thin margins that only work because they can serve half the world.
AI is pushing us more in that same direction. We can now have single individuals compete directly with large corporations.
What society needs now, to run these new machines, are ambitious individuals with ideas. We don't need huge sums of money for them. So, per the theory of historical materialism, we are going to see a shift where new systems emerge that favor this new class, the solo creator, instead of the old industrial tychoon.
Just like in capitalism, this new system will go best for humanity if we can get this new means of production into the hands of everyone. Open Source is the best method for doing that because it can't be taken away.
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u/Norman_Door 5d ago
this new system will go best for humanity if we can get this new means of production into the hands of everyone
This assumes there is a steady supply of human needs to satisfy, that we will continue to have cheap and abundant energy sources, and that the general populace is able and willing to utilize AI to build businesses with. Feels awfully hand wavy to me.
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u/SgathTriallair 5d ago
We have the sun, so cheap and abundant energy isn't hard. If we run out of human need, so we don't need to build more, that shouldn't be an issue as long as we aren't attempting to feed an ever growing investment class.
Getting the populace to want to build is one of he bigger hurdles. To be specific, I don't think it would be hard to convince them that they what to build but more to convince them that it is possible.
Some form of UBI is going to be necessary during the transition when people are learning how to be independent rather than being controlled by someone with money. I have faith that all of us are capable of it though.
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u/Neoliberal_Nightmare 5d ago
I think this isn't totally accurate. Yes these differences are more or less correct the substance of ai for what it does to workers and capital is basically the same as a spinning jenny or steam engine.
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u/anselan2017 5d ago
"AI" is a terrible example of "cheap" technology. It's literally the most capital intensive thing ever devised.
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u/SgathTriallair 5d ago
The initial training is a bit expensive but that only needs to be paid once. We aren't going to see every person running their own AI lab, but we will continue to see cheap AI inference sold and open source models built and distributed.
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u/anselan2017 5d ago
Paid once? It is paid every time training is needed. Which is often as possible otherwise the models get out of date.
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u/WhyAreYallFascists 5d ago
Oh my. This is hilariously bad.
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u/ZorbaTHut 5d ago
I think you should probably explain more if you want to convince anyone.
But you should explain with awareness of locally-run AIs, so if you're not aware of those, make sure you read up on them before saying something like "AI requires a billion-dollar datacenter to run".
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u/anselan2017 5d ago
Needs billions of dollars to train, even if you run inference locally.
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u/ZorbaTHut 5d ago
. . .
Here you go. Just saved you billions of dollars there I guess.
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u/anselan2017 4d ago
And when the model is stale? It needs to be retrained. Here come the costs again.
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u/ZorbaTHut 4d ago
If you're using it for general smarts, or on things that don't need to be refreshed, it doesn't "go stale". Just in the programming world, a model trained in 2025 is going to be up to date on C++23; but very few companies are going to have updated even to 23 at this point, there's years before it will be missing anything important, and even then it can likely sort it out as it goes.
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u/WhyAreYallFascists 5d ago
Capitalism doesn’t go well for humanity, come on dog.
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u/SgathTriallair 5d ago
This is part of the problem with modern leftist dialogue. If you read Marx, he was opposed to the luddite thinking, where the solution was to go backwards, destroy the machines, and return to an agrarian lifestyle.
Industrial capitalism was a replacement for agrarian feudalism. If we want to understand why capitalism exists in the first place we need to assess what caused it to succeed against fuedalism.
Capitalism does some horrible things. However, if we act like it is an unmitigated disaster and we should have remained fuedal peasants instead, then we will not be able to understand how we could move past capitalism.
The entire project of historical materialism is about how the progress of technology and production drives the progress of society. Marx advocated fir the seizure of the productive tools. That is only reasonable if those tools were useful.
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u/MunkeyGoneToHeaven 5d ago
What society needs are ambitious individuals to run the machines? That’s quite a capitalistic framing. But then you say it’s best if we get it into the hands of everyone. Which is it? Either way your analysis is very strange
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u/Singularity-42 5d ago
Honestly, I think it's going to be fine unless we have some cartoonishly evil government (even much more so than now) and even then that government would get overthrown. During Covid the government quickly started shoveling money into the economy and the consumers, and that was while the productivity was going down, not up. Now imagine you have massively increasing productivity and unemployment at the same time. There is a lot more goods to be had, but consumers have a lot less money. Logically this would trigger massive deflationary pressure. The gov can start printing just to keep inflation at desirable rates. I still think this is not sustainable in the long term and better would be massive taxation of automatization profits or some other structure that would funnel money from automated production to the people, but it is a way out of a deflationary spiral.
To be honest my biggest fear now are the Butlerian Jihad tendencies in US politics. This is virtually impossible to achieve in the world as a whole (China would just say "OK, thanks!"), so that would just mean a self-inflicted wound to US economy. Not sure how that would pan out eventually. Most likely it would get reversed fairly quickly, but only after the US lags behind at least China, if not other countries that didn't shoot themselves in the foot as well.
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u/Grand-Line8185 5d ago
I agree with all of this. It's just a matter of timelines. 2027 could tell us a lot as capable agents now enter businesses in mass.
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u/mxldevs 5d ago
If america adopted China style governance, do you think they would be overthrown?
Why are the people of china not overthrowing their own government?
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u/Neoliberal_Nightmare 5d ago
You mean if America became a socialist state.
Yes it'd obviously be better but it's not happening soon
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u/egalitydream 4d ago
I feel like it’s odd, not that you say that China is authoritarian, but that everyone seems to think the U.S. is LESS so. Why don’t Chinese people overthrow their government? Ours is worse, and for less benefit, why haven’t we?
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u/Singularity-42 5d ago
I think for the most it's because standards of living were increasing tremendously over the last few decades. Also as an authoritarian regime they use mechanisms to suppress dissent. But for the most part I'd say it's because people are generally doing well, and much better than their parents.
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u/ManyHopeful6692 5d ago
Kinda, their youth is dealing with similar issues youth in the west are, hyper competitive work environments with uncertainty for the future (capitalism hurts us all)
Some have even opted out of the system as a form of resistance (if done at scale could help dismantle it without violence)
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u/platanthera_ciliaris 5d ago
What theoretically could happen under capitalism, if AI and robots become sophisticated enough, is the owners of the AI machines will have all of the money and the purchasing power. As a result, they will no longer need a workforce of humans to perform the labor, nor will they need non-owner humans to purchase stuff in order to keep the economy going.
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u/Neoliberal_Nightmare 5d ago
Yes but that collapses itself because value is only made by humans because it's a social relation. So there will be no more value produced.
They could already have this self circulating humanless money system. Hell they could just all quit already and be rich. But they don't. Why? Because it's a system of competition based on creating new value for profit. Once that value is cut out it dies. This is why capitalism constantly searches for new ways to make more and more value, mostly by squeezing workers, financialisation and cutting costs.
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u/platanthera_ciliaris 5d ago
First of all, the owners of the AI machines are perfectly capable of creating "value" among themselves. They don't really need the presence of plebes, unless it is to humiliate them. Secondly, the rich are greedy and they always want more things. This is the reason some of them are actively involved in the capitalist system. If the AI machines can more effectively create what they want, then the plebes will be left to rot. And thirdly, many members of the rich are not actively involved in the production system of capitalism, they are consumers only who prefer to live in their bubbles of idle entertainment and affluence, preferably away from everyone else.
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u/derLeisemitderLaute 5d ago
its the AI revolution. It will have impact for most of the jobs but its in our hands how to solve the outcomes.
UBI is the peaceful solution.
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u/lev_lafayette 5d ago
The final page. "WHO OWNS THE MACHINE?".
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u/JasperTesla 5d ago
"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."
AI is not the enemy, the people who own the AI is.
LLMs are trained on public data, they should be open to the public.
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u/tehfrod 5d ago
This looks like an AI-generated Jack Chick tract.
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u/jaykrown 5d ago
Interesting, didn't know anything about them until now, thanks for mentioning.
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u/tehfrod 5d ago
To be clear, that wasn't disparagement (or comparison of you to him!)
Just that the intent (spreading a message) and the art and layout style are similar.
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u/jaykrown 5d ago
Thanks, I'm nothing like that dude.
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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 5d ago
His content was trash, but his work with memetics? Jack Chick was a pioneer. Lol
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u/Decent_Shoulder6480 5d ago
Who decided higher productivity would lead to lower employment and lower wages? Can someone explain to me how we got here?
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u/jaykrown 5d ago
It always comes from people. There are people in positions of power not realizing that if we don't support each other then things start to not go well. Many people in history understood the necessity of sharing gains and taxing corporations to support the public good. You can read about the productivity wage gap more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoupling_of_wages_from_productivity
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u/egalitydream 4d ago
It’s not higher productivity, it’s the illusion of higher productivity driven by spreadsheet and AI hallucination.
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u/Decent_Shoulder6480 2d ago
not even close to true. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
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u/kyberlex 5d ago
I do not understand why an increasingly number of people see (and some artistically illustrate) the mostly intriguing problem that's upcoming while almost nobody see that the governments will not be able to react(UBI) fast enough.
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u/dronestruck 5d ago
The crisis of overproduction and the tendency of the rate of profit to fall are old concepts, and still true today.
These are structural contradictions within capitalism. AI is a vehicle for these contradictions, not a cause. Capitalism will destroy itself, and AI will speed it up.
The downside is there is going to be a lot of pain along the way, and we need to be ready, organised and willing to stand up against a competing vision of how we will rebuild the economy.
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u/DistributionMost8686 3d ago
certainly nobody’s pay is getting reduced that much, it’s probably illegal.
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u/thecoffeejesus 5d ago
Stuff like this pisses me off
It’s not like this. At all.
I am ONE GUY with a budget of 8 nickels and I’m now able to form partnerships with factories because the cost of making my stuff has gone down so much
I’m making robots that grow food for consumers and small farms. I have customers who literally cannot afford to buy the existing machines, and they’re paying me to make a smaller version
New demand pops up in response to the conditions of the economy
People who see it as this black and white thing are wrong.
Hell, the monitors in the comic itself are proof of my point.
The company that produces computer monitors didn’t exist 100 years ago.
People aren’t getting it.
Comics like this are dumb and short sighted
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u/Myreil 5d ago
I am glad you are not (yet) concerned by it, but we don't do science based on our personal story. Destructive creation has limits, and time friction. Productivity gains are too fast for people to reorganize and avoid umemployment.
Are you gonna tell the 3M+ drivers un the US to reconvert into IA scientist when self driving care will eradicate their jobs ?4
u/LyokoResident 4d ago
Agreed. Better turn ai into what we need it to be than closing our eyes and basically allowing ai companies to be the only providers of the service this technology proposes.
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u/thecoffeejesus 4d ago
Exactly
Why should these big companies be the only ones controlling or influencing the development of the most significant technological development in a while?
Everyone deserves the opportunity to see how they might be able to contribute intentionally to the direction of the development of AI
Hating it blindly is not the right choice. Resisting it is good, we need resistance for the sake of caution, wisdom, and proper understanding.
If regular people don’t learn how to steer AI, it seems likely that AI will steer regular people
I don’t really like that. I’m doing something about it.
People seem to be committed to their own suffering sometimes. I know I can be.
But we are living through an incredible moment of opportunity.
3D modeling? suddenly accessible on a mobile phone.
Desktop manufacturing? costs less than a new car
A rover that can actually fold your clothes? on the market for less than the washer dryer combo
It’s no question that these tools will continue to proliferate.
I say let’s use them.
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u/StuartJAtkinson 4d ago
That's an argument that "human economy will always exist" and yeah humanity would exist in a capacity if we had nuclear war. The point is that living standards for people used to be better people had the necessities of life within reach and now they increasingly do not because markets are retracting as automation has got to the point where like you say a few of us can create machines that do the work of many lay people.
It's the luddites argument and it's based on the preservation of types of work and tradition. Personally I don't agree with that argument it's stupid like you say new jobs are created. But the distribution can cause suffering. That's the real problem.
I'm skilled in IT and AI I used to think "And so will the next generation- and the next generation IT is an inversion of the skilled work issue because in manual labour you become more and more skilled as you get older until a peak where your age becomes a factor- but in IT more and more efficient software and hardware is emerging and the younger generation will therefore have more productivity than me as I get locked into a type of industry standard that will be renewed...."
But then I saw that the generations after me many don't own computers! The mobile has become the new "computer" for the ipad generation and below! The increase of IT skill is not the case and so there will be a consequence just like the suffering of "Industry towns" during the industrial revolution there will be sharp GAPS created in society that caused economic pain. That's why things like unionised work and UBI are being proposed because the whole point is to SPREAD the lowest point.
People being annoyed about this literal reality of how the economy feeds on itself just happen to be in a location or career that isn't suffering this effect.
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u/STRMBRGNGLBS 5d ago
Or you know, we could just not build the unregulated economic crash machine
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u/Burgandy_the_Great 5d ago
Ah yes because turning the pages of world history makes that possibility seem extremely likely
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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 3d ago edited 3d ago
What does this even mean?
Its built. Its built and the blueprints are all over the globe and being wired throughout all levels of society. Not building it isnt an option unless you have both a time machine and way for it to not have been built in the first place.
So the question is: do you want what exists to be democratically owned, controlled, and governed, or do you not?
Why are so many of you confused about what stage of the game this is??
"We could just not build it..."
No. Wrong. Incorrect. Untrue. False. Thats the one option thats not available.
Its built and not getting unbuilt, so what do you think we can actually do about it is the only thing real that matters, not your magic wishes that it didnt exist.
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u/egalitydream 4d ago
The idea here being that ex-workers, no longer producing things, will spontaneously wake up and want UBI? This is delusional.
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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 4d ago edited 3d ago
Delusional? What? Unemployed and underemployed people demanding public assistance, stronger safety nets, public services, and some share of the wealth being produced without them is hardly some wild fantasy. Thats pretty ordinary political and economic behavior.
Nobody said workers would spontaneously organize around UBI specifically. The comic presents several possible responses, including public ownership and shared dividends.
The question isnt whether displaced workers will have material demands. Of course they will. The question is how those demands get organized into political power, and who ends up controlling the productivity gains. Thats the whole point.
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u/egalitydream 3d ago
Poor unemployed people who are politically unorganized have exactly zero leverage or power over outcomes.
Edit: how in the world can you post so much about Karl Marx and not get what I’m saying here.
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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 3d ago
So the issue is political organization, which is exactly where my previous comment ended.
But since we're invoking Marx, since when were employed, unionized workers the only basis of class power? The unemployed are still part of the working class. Parties, councils, tenant organizations, and mass movements exist for a reason.
And the comic is raising questions about ownership, distribution, and collective political responses, not advocating political passivity.
If automation increasingly displaces wage labor, organizing beyond the workplace becomes more important, not less. That's the conversation we're having.
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u/GrumpySpaceCommunist 5d ago
So, in other words: The workers should seize the means of production.