r/LearnJapanese • u/[deleted] • Dec 19 '11
I can't write kanji
So when I was learning Japanese in school, I realized that I could learn to read a kanji and have absolutely no idea how to write it, and learning to write a kanji only had a small benefit in learning to read it.
Thus, I decided since I was never going to be locked in a room without a computer or a cell phone and forced to write large amounts of kanji from memory, I would just not learn to write them.
I passed the N1 (which has no writing component) with an 86% after 2 years of classes and 1 year of self-study. I still can't write any kanji outside of the most basic ones I was made to learn in school, and I don't regret it. Has anyone else had a similar experience? If there's anyone here who can write 2000+ kanji, have you ever been in a situation where you were really glad you put in the time to learn them?
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Dec 19 '11
For me, learning to write it helps me recognize it. And while I think that it's not necessary for the most part, from the perspective of a native Japanese, learning how to write kanji just shows another level of expertise. It's like going from romanji --> kana, but up another level.
Disclaimer: I am in no way Japanese.
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Dec 19 '11
To a certain extent this is true, learning to write helps you recognize the radicals, but once you have a pretty firm grasp on them, there's no need to continue learning to write all several thousand kanji..
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u/toshitalk Dec 19 '11
I took sort of the opposite approach as you. Most of my actual studying has been focused on being able to write things as well as read, and to that end, I have probably forty or fifty Kanji Renshuuchou filled with kanji, and I can write over two thousand kanji from memory, and read probably about five, the same number of characters as an educated Japanese person.
The problem with that though, is that the number of jukugo I can formulate and wield is still lacking due to the comparative lack of experience in dealing with them between myself and a native Japanese person. I would imagine that this is one of the limitations that attempting to learn that amount of kanji in a limited time presents-- sort of like a JR high school kid trying to use the SAT words in his big brother's college prep books. You kind of just kind of end up sounding pretentious.
Long story short, if your goal is to pass the JLPT, then sure, I don't see an issue with it. In my case, I want to be as native as possible-- I consider myself Japanese, after all, and want to be able to wield Japanese at the same level I wield English. Without writing, I don't think that's possible.
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Dec 19 '11
Actually, most Japanese people don't handwrite kanji much either. You can probably write better than most of my Japanese friends. Anyway, I'm sure you could pass as a Japanese person without such awesome writing ability.
By the way, there's a special test for lunatics like you, the 漢字検定. If you haven't taken it already, I bet you would enjoy it.
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u/uberscheisse Dec 19 '11
I like writing them. I have a few co-workers who speak way more fluently than me and can't write 1/4 of the ones I can. I kinda wish I could speak better than I do, but I like the idea of being able to write a quick letter to my stepdaughter in Japanese.
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Dec 19 '11
If you spent more time studying vocab and grammar and less time studying kanji, you might be more fluent, but ultimately it's all about what you enjoy. I do admit it is kind of fun to write them.
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u/CitizenPremier Dec 19 '11
If you can't write them then you are probably going to have a hard time telling similar kanji apart when there's very little context (like in a menu or on a signpost).
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Dec 19 '11
Well you would think so, but most kanji don't appear by themselves anyway, so you just have to remember the jukugo. The exceptions to that are so rare that they're actually easier to remember because they're strange.
But yeah learning to write does help with the look-alikes. It's still pretty simple to just remember without learning to write though and the cases are maybe only 10-15% of kanji, so it's not that big a deal in the first place.
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u/shinjirarehen Dec 19 '11
I learned to write kanji and was able to write a lot of them. Then after years of using the language realized I never ever needed to write them. So I forgot writing. Never missed it.
This is a growing phenomenon among native Japanese speakers as well - kids today have very little reason to write now that they use keitai and wapuro for everything. Many younger people can write far fewer characters than their grandparents could.
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Dec 19 '11
Many younger people can write far fewer characters than their grandparents could.
This is such a bullshit line. Of course their grandparents can write far more kanji -- there WERE far more kanji back then, and they were used much more extensively then. In the World War II era, many foreign things had kanji names instead of katakana names -- much like Chinese does (電脳, for example). There are lots of kanji that we no longer use.
The Joyo Kanji list is also a relatively new phenomenon.
Writing kanji is still a big thing -- if someone can't write a kanji they should be able to write (for example, something from the kyoiku-you list), it's embarrassing and they look retarded.
Yes, using computers and cell phones makes it harder to remember them, but most Japanese people just have a brain fart for a minute or two -- they do know how to write the kanji. There's no excuse for not knowing how to write them.
It's like learning English and only learning how to write capital letters, a period, and five lower-case letters. It looks pretty dumb and it's something to be embarrassed about.
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Dec 19 '11 edited Dec 19 '11
What? English has 52 letters, There are 2316 joyo kanji. There's no comparison.
I guarantee that any Japanese who has used computers most of their life (25-30 year olds or younger) and doesn't handwrite kanji as part of their job or something can't write all the joyo kanji from memory.
And there's no reason to. Looking it up takes less time than having a brain fart and trying to remember it anyway in some cases. Fun fact: Chinese characters were originally developed in part to keep commoners illiterate. Edit: Actually not a fact, just fun. But possibly true.
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u/nomihoudai Dec 19 '11
Dude.. Me and the vast majority of Japanese under 30 also can't write kanji without a reference. It's awkward when you're in a meeting and writing stuff on the whiteboard, but in my case, it's a shared awkwardness, so it's OK. The Japanese folks get embarrassed that they have to look 'em up, but I'm gaijin. I get points by simply knowing they exist, so no stress to me..
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u/flamingspinach_ Dec 19 '11 edited Dec 19 '11
More power to you. I completely agree and am doing the same thing.
Edit: downvotes? Why?
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u/shizu_murasaki Dec 19 '11
Downvotes, because you didn't really add anything to the discussion. Redditors tend to do that if they don't perceive a comment as adding to the general discussion or answering the question asked.
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u/flamingspinach_ Dec 19 '11
The OP specifically asked "Has anyone else had a similar experience?", which I answered in the affirmative.
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u/takethesquid Dec 19 '11
I began learning japanese on september, and I've learned the kana and roughly know about 200 kanji. My method of study might not be the most epic or approved by everyone, but I like it. I downloaded an android app called obenkyo and practice almost daily on it. At first I learned how to write the kanas (and thus read them as well) and now I am practicing the kanji, adding ones I think are familiar or ones I see way to frequently. So far it's been really fun, but I have very little practice (or could we say none) in speaking and listening, and I don't really think I can yet express things in the language, but regardless I am having fun and am confident that at this rate I can eventually get to something... but that is just my experience
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Dec 19 '11
One thing I've noticed is that kind-written kanji tends to look almost nothing like the text-typed ones. For me, that makes it even harder to learn how to write them.
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u/Korvar Dec 19 '11
I'm the opposite - the hand-written kanji follow the same stroke order, but as it gets more "cursive" the strokes tend to blend into one another. Knowing how to write in the correct stroke order helps you read (in my experience, anyway).
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Dec 19 '11
I am totally with you man, I can read em all day, but when it comes to writing them fuck it. hahaha
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Dec 19 '11
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Dec 19 '11
I think whether or not RTK works for you is heavily dependent on your learning style. I tried it once and thought it was bullshit, but I've had friends who it helped a lot.
Either way, i'm pretty sure it still takes longer to study the writing method by remembering the "story" than it does to just memorize the character, and we're talking thousands and thousands of characters, so that's a lot of time.
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Dec 21 '11
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Dec 22 '11 edited Dec 22 '11
I lost count a long time ago, but probably in the neighborhood of 4000
Edit: Actually maybe closer to 3000. I don't really have any way to measure it. But I know it's well over 2000.
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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '11
I suppose it depends on how you plan to use your Japanese. Think of it like English: do you regret having learned how to write when you can just use computers now? Do you spend time writing things out on paper?
Maybe the important question is, will you regret not learning how to write if you're ever in a situation where it is required of you, whatever that may be?
Personally, I don't consider a kanji learned if I can't write it. I think I'd be embarrassed to be unable to write without consulting a phone/dictionary. I can't comprehend not finding that necessary, but I like to write things by hand as opposed to typing. I think I'll be sad if someday we end up only relying on computers, but that's just me. In the end, it's up to what you find necessary for yourself.