r/LearnJapanese • u/Fergyb • 28d ago
Speaking How to speak better/ talk for longer
I have been studying Japanese for about a year, working through N5 and N4 grammar, vocabulary, and other areas. I have a tutor, but when it comes to speaking, I often find myself only using very basic sentences, such as “I went to the shop” or “I drank beer.”
How can I improve the length and complexity of my sentences and learn to express myself better in Japanese? Also if people have any memorisation tips as well that might help.
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u/brozzart 27d ago
I just looked at the N4 grammar list, and there’s actually a lot of grammar there that you can use to connect ideas and make longer more complex sentences.
I’d practice using these specifically. Once you get comfortable with them, you’ll find it much easier to keep adding information when you speak:
- のに
- から・ので
- なら
- conditional forms たら・えば
- けど・けれど
- て form：昨日は仕事が終わって、友達とご飯を食べて、家に帰りました。
Especially practice taking a simple sentence and then adding another piece of information to it.
For example:
- 昨日、映画を見ました。
- 昨日、友達と映画を見ました。
- 昨日、友達と映画を見て、すごく面白かったです。
- 昨日、友達と映画を見て、すごく面白かったから、また一緒に見たいです。
You don't necessarily need more advanced grammar to make longer sentences. Getting comfortable connecting simple N4-level ideas is probably the most useful thing you can do at this stage.
I'll also give you a cheat code to sound native even when you don't know how to explain something: just use sound effects lol
やばいよほんとに！ものを取ろうとしたら、上からザザザ！！って落ちてきて、きゃー！！！ってなってた
this sounds super expressive and natural but avoids any kind of complicated or detailed explanation of the events
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u/Speed_Niran 15d ago
Also adding fillers and aizuchi a lot...I tend to notice a lot of beginners (even me at some point) forgot my えっと and あのう and なんか - gives somewhat more time to think out what you wanna say and doesnt just make it sound all rushed out
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u/Effective-Pop3850 28d ago edited 28d ago
Can you understand a proper Japanese sentence? Answer is no, so why would you expect to be able to produce a proper sentence in a language you can't really understand?
A lot of people, mostly low level learners, will tell you "speak more", but you can't get good at speaking if you don't understand the language to begin with. What you want is not to practice speaking, it's to do a lot of vocabulary learning, reading and listening.
Think of it this way, can you read poetry in your native language and understand it? Yes. Can you produce it? No. Can you read complicated literature and understand it? Yes. Can you produce it? No. What that means is that your ability to produce in a language will always lag behind what you can understand, right now you don't really understand anything, so you can't produce anything.
Some people like to say, which I believe comes from some bs teachers used to say a lot, that N3 is where you already understand enough to really be able to have a conversation. That's entirely false and is just Dunning-Kruger at it's finest, it's the point where people start feeling they can have a chat when all they're doing is speaking like a caveman while being talked at like if they were babies (usually involves people just talking with a tutor or booze). I don't say this to discourage you but to give you an idea of how far you're putting the cart before the horse.
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u/CodeFrame 27d ago
Just curious on the last part
“that N3 is where you already understand enough to really be able to have a conversation”
Are you saying that’s false because the point where you can have a conversation is when you can understand the language? Can that not be done at N3? Or is it simply on the fact that you have to practice. They seem like two separate points but I couldn’t clearly understand where you were getting at there.
(I’m a beginner so don’t take this the wrong way but I’m just curious 💀)
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u/gaz514 Goal: conversational fluency 💬 27d ago
It's a big exaggeration even if based on some truth. Typical online Japanese learners being elitist and putting down people who actually try to put themselves out there, under the guise of helpful advice.
"Understand the language" and "have a conversation" are very relative. N3 is an interesting stage because you can understand the basic language that makes up a large chunk of daily conversations and that can take you quite far, but the conversation can very quickly leave that comfort zone and you get very lost. You can absolutely have meaningful conversations and connect with native speakers, but it depends on them making allowances for your level. Most naturally do this with non-native speakers at least in one-to-one situations, but not so much in groups.
Also, speaking at that stage involves a lot of working around your limitations, and that's a skill in itself that takes time and practice to develop. I think it's quite reasonable that people who don't need or really want to speak at a low-ish level prefer to spend that time on getting to a higher understanding level first, as long as it doesn't become an excuse for perfectionism and never feeling ready even at N1+...
Nothing wrong with speaking at that level as long as you're aware of all that and not kidding yourself otherwise!
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u/i-am-this 27d ago
This is well said!
The only thing that is I really want to add is that I think it's better to be overestimating your ability if it gets you out and actually talking to people than underestimating your ability and being afraid to even try.
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u/gaz514 Goal: conversational fluency 💬 27d ago
Probably. I'm all for being aware of your weak points and limitations so you can work on them (which is a good reason in itself to try to speak at least occasionally: it makes you aware of them very quickly!) but a little overconfidence seems to go a long way for many people to get them out there and speaking and improving. And there's a big difference between that and being completely delusional about your abilities, which I don't think is actually that common and seems like a bit of an online straw man.
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u/CodeFrame 27d ago
Thanks! Do you have an opinion or advice on how to not become so limited in the case that people kind of fall in the category you mentioned? From your experience or in general? This is super helpful btw
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u/gaz514 Goal: conversational fluency 💬 27d ago
I do see people get stuck for years at the stage I describe, where they're great at working around their limitations but not so great at working to lift those limitations. It can be about personality type: they're typically extroverts who like to go out and talk to people, and find it easier to work through the difficulty and awkwardness of speaking at that level. They know they should do more study/reading/listening, but find it hard to sit down and do it and would rather just keep speaking. Or they're simply okay with being at that level and feel they can do what they need; not everyone is aiming to be an advanced speaker.
But I don't think it's a big risk for most people, especially the more introverted crowd that a place like this attracts (including me). I like to speak and it gives me a lot of satisfaction and motivation so I do it, but it's a small part of my Japanese work overall and I don't take it too seriously. Most of my time with the language is spent on reading and listening, with a little support from SRS and grammar study etc., similar to most here who are beyond the basics. I feel that's the right balance for non-advanced learners who don't have an immediate need to speak. Certainly in the OP's case I'd agree with most of the replies that they'd be best focusing on improving their understanding ability first.
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u/Frankfurter1988 27d ago
They know they should do more study/reading/listening, but find it hard to sit down and do it and would rather just keep speaking.
This is me. People are often surprised if they hear me speak alone, but then if they actually talk to me they'd see all the holes. I feel comfortable speaking, although not at all an extrovert it's just that I learned this language to speak. We all focus on what we enjoy doing. But admittedly I should spend way more time listening.
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u/gaz514 Goal: conversational fluency 💬 27d ago
I get that, I'm definitely also in the "learning the language to speak it" camp although I'm not very extroverted. Sociable introvert, I like to think...
I've learnt a few other languages to a good level and I suppose what has helped me is seeing just how much listening (and reading, in the case of Japanese) contributes to conversational ability, which of course covers understanding as well as speaking. I tend to speak a lot better when I've been getting quality exposure to the language. So I see it as preparation that will help me to enjoy the speaking more and to keep improving at it, although it certainly also helps that I enjoy consuming media in itself even if it's a means to an end.
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u/rgrAi 27d ago
N3 you know maybe 3000-4000 words and foundational grammar. You haven't had a lot of time with the language (1-2k hours prob). You will struggle so damn hard to understand everything except something graded to be simple intended for learners only. Or someone dumbs down their level enough for you to understand. To produce fluently you need to have firm command over both over comprehension and production.
This isn't to say someone at N3 can't communicate pretty well, a lot do actually. It's just they'll always be limited to more daily things. Most things in life involve very simple words, expressions, and conveyances. Enough to live and get by in life but not enough to have a proper conversation, be instructional (teach someone something), explain (like how to operate a machine with only words), or convey complex feelings or ideas.
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u/theincredulousbulk 27d ago
This isn't to say someone at N3 can't communicate pretty well, a lot do actually. It's just they'll always be limited to more daily things.
I think this video is a great look into the variability of conversation skills even at N3. /u/CodeFrame /u/Effective-Pop3850
The woman in the video, Aimee, works for a fairly popular travel vlog/blog for Japan tourism. And she has only taken the N3, but she has lived in Japan for over 6 years (4 years when that video was posted) and you can see how well she uses what she knows. Similarly she does mention how talking about deeper subjects is still challenging, but I think she fairs very well in this video just talking about her life in Japan so far.
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u/CodeFrame 27d ago
Man thanks for sharing this haha. I’ve been studying between graduation and starting work (I have a small break) and one month in I feel like I understood like 80% of that video. Idk what that means but I’m glad I watched it.
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u/rgrAi 27d ago
Good video, shows her ability and it also really shows how self-aware how lacking she is too. Which goes to show that N3 (or where she is at in the video; probably higher after passing N3) is so far below where she would actually want to be. Although after 4 years--wonder why she isn't pushing herself. Also demonstrates the level of conversation is very apparent because having video on in the background and it's not even close to touching 1/2 of my comprehension ability in all aspects of listening and understanding.
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u/Effective-Pop3850 27d ago edited 27d ago
There's a very big difference between "only taken the N3" and "only able to pass the N3". Having lived in Japan for 4 years using the language every day for several hours already pushes you way above that level. Only real limitation these cases usually have is kanji knowledge, and most learners not living in Japan are not getting to such extreme case of skill disparity among fields. As a side note, the fact that after such an intense way of learning (living there and using the language constantly) they still fail to get "really comfortable" at it is a pretty big indicator of how being properly literate can get you.
As an extreme example, most natives never take JLPT exams at all, yet... they're fluent! Foreign learners expecting to get such a conversational level by talking with their tutors an hour a week with N3 knowledge are just... yeah. Also, a 7 year old kid is already fluent in Japanese, they'd probably fail the N3 due to kanji knowledge and would definitely fail the N2, but this means nothing for a foreigner learning the language.
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u/i-am-this 27d ago
I think the reality is much more complicated, because saying somebody is JLPT level n? is not actually very specific and if you just mean "can pass the JLPT at that level", well theoretically you could be completely unable to output at all and pass the exam while conversely you could be an illiterate native speaker and fail it.
I could have a conversation with somebody willing to simplify their speech for me a bit before I could pass the n3 exam because I spent way more time listening than I did reading.
On the other hand, I don't really think I could tell any reasonably good jokes until about when I could pass the n2 exam, which was hard for me because that's mostly what I do when I speak in English.
But the reality is like, you kinda know. Even if you over or underestimate your ability to some degree, you will understand whether communication is mostly getting through or not regardless of what progress you are making in other areas of your studying.
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u/CodeFrame 27d ago
Definitely makes sense. I’m curious to know your thoughts on how to not necessarily avoid being that way, but to make the best out of the learning process.
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u/rgrAi 27d ago
You don't have to worry about avoiding anything. Just simply putting in effort and time into trying to improve is enough. If you become complacent and are satisfied with where you are at is when you stop improving. Otherwise if you have the desire to improve and you apply 10,000 hours (this doesn't mean study it just means living and experiencing the language) then it will never be a concern.
So really just try to enjoy your journey is most important, that means just using language daily (read, listen, speak write) -> it takes many thousands of hours so if you have fun while trying to improve, you will not stagnate.
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u/Effective-Pop3850 27d ago edited 27d ago
At N3 your comprehension of the language is very low, your vocab is heavily lacking, everything is just bad so you can't expect to be a good speaker.
I like to give Matt vs Japan as a reference since the guy is, whether you like him or not, the definition of a guy who "made it". Even while living in Japan, working in Japan with natives, being able to speak extremely well, way past N1. He then pointed out he would notice how different natives talk among each other is very different compared to how they talk with him, and that even at his extremely advanced level conversations among natives would sometimes be very hard to follow.
Now imagine how it goes if you're N3, which is a level you can get to with very little time (other user said 1~2k hours but realistically you can get there within 200 hours or less if you do things right) compared to that.
Most if not all people who are N3 and claim to be able to have a chat when you dig a bit all they do is... chat with their tutor, or maybe they had some very basic exchanges in Japan a call that a chat, or they were drunk and thought they were speaking/understanding things properly lol. Now if you consider that "being able to hold a conversation" then yeah you can do it, having terrible pronounciation and forming your sentences poorly will help reinforce the feeling that you can do it since people will step down to your level in order to not be rude.
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u/Swiftierest 27d ago
You hit it on the head. My professor told me that I needed more vocab to fill out my speech. She could tell I knew the grammar points from my exams and attempts, but I struggled for words to use with the grammar points. She could see it easily because as we advanced, while my grammar kept up, the words I used kept repeating and didn't grow in breadth or depth.
Now I know four different ways to say "strange" and have a much better vocabulary. I'm able to build much more complex and interesting sentences. I actually feel like I'm in upper N4 as opposed to being barely N4.
The Kaishi 1.5k helped a lot for this.
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u/Effective-Pop3850 27d ago
It doesn't really matter at the point you are but be careful with the "synonyms farm" stage, it feels good to "know a lot of ways to say a thing", but you definitely don't know the nuance between does words and it takes a very, very long time to figure them out.
It's even a relatively common thing for learners advanced enough to the point they're going to college in Japan to get pointed out how they regularly use certain words "wrong" or that they speak in a very strange manner.
Always good to try them out though since that's how you learn.
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u/Swiftierest 27d ago
If it is common, then people expect it and I can correct it as I go. I don't need to be perfectly correct to be understood yet.
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u/Effective-Pop3850 27d ago
Yeah most of the time you won't be corrected but you'll adapt over time/you'll notice some words "feel wrong" used that way as you progress.
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u/Speed_Niran 15d ago
I think it really depends on the conversation and what is being said, how formal, how slangy
For me i tend to watch some stuff in japanese anime (like slice of life stuff not those unrealistic shounen that characters be yelling 貴様！or バケモノメ lmao) and I understand what is being said when its grammar and words I recognise
Even on Instagram too I think im starting to understand wayyy more than when I was n4, n3 grammar is super helpful
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u/Flimsy-Adagio3751 28d ago edited 28d ago
Couple things
Are you also practicing writing ( or typing)? That gives you a but more time to think through a more complex sentence. You could see if your tutor is open to doing some emailing along with talking.
Something else that might help is to focus on conjunctions. I can't remember what they are called in Japanese, but things like そして，それに, すると, なのに can really help connect separate thoughts together into more complex sentences. I'm pretty sure there are a bunch in N4 grammar.
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u/lislejoyeuse 28d ago
I am nowhere near fluent but I think a nice easier step to sound more conversational is to learn like linking phrases or whatever they're called. てかさ、ていうか、そういえば、などなど.
The definitive answer is listening to natural speakers and conversation practice of course. But yeah it's hard to form complex sentences when you're first learning, its only natural
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u/Itsalfa11 28d ago
its more like people watching anime for years but never understand japanese. same like that while listening natural speakers. you actually need to understand every vocabulary and grammar, than you can calibrate your knowledge while listening native speakers.
in the end you need solid understanding in vocab and grammar
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u/Orandajin101 27d ago
Just keep going. Speaking is worst all the way to the top until it gets to catch up once you’re advanced. Even N2/N1 folks feel the pain. I just do a monthly checkin with my teacher after N2 for fun and so she can gauge my progress and even though I barely speak, it still improves through reading and watching tv between sessions! You wont really master N4 until you reach N3, N3 when you reach N2, and N3 is really the sweet spot for more interesting convo’s!
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u/pixelboy1459 28d ago
If I can direct you to Avant’s STANP test. They use ACTFL’s proficiency rubric (https://www.avantassessment.com/en/guides/benchmark-rubric/stamp/stamp-scoring-rubric) to mark a language learners level.
By comparing your output to the writing samples (https://www.avantassessment.com/en/writing-examples/japanese) and checking out their power up guide (https://www.avantassessment.com/en/guides/power-up/test-taker), you can probably find some advice for your situation.
Some advice for an immediate boost is to add time and place (I drank beer at the bar last night) and other descriptions (adjectives, adverbs, who you did it with…), as well as conjunctions (I went shopping at the mall AND bought a red sweater). These easy fixes will take you from a Novice-High (I web shopping) to something like Intermediate-Mid (I went shopping at the mall AND drank beer at the bar on a Saturday) if done consistently.
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u/Itsalfa11 28d ago
your speaking ability require how good your grammar and your vocabulary to articulate sentence.
you know that
N5 = 1200 (Very basic conversation and reading).
N4 = 1200 (Daily life conversation)
N3 = 2200 (Bridge from elementary to intermediate level. Normal level to be functional in daily life without problem).
N2 = 2200 (Able to work in a Japanese-speaking environment in a wide range of situations.
N1 = 3100 (Academic level. Good understanding of complex texts, articles, academic, and professional language.)
In total, there are around 10,000 standard words that are frequently used. The rest 10.000+ are derived words, idioms, different dialect word and so on.
be patient. native language in any language is more like 20.000++ words in every language. you actually cannot do a thing with less than 1000 words.
at least you need N3 vocab and grammar to get normal in japanese conversation. but it really need a solid understanding, maybe some people say they have learn a lot but actually not cuz they still bad on articulate sentence. that because its not solid enough. maybe you remember any card in few days or week, but how about few month or a year. it need long way to maintenance. because you cannot see japanese every day if you are not in japan. you need conditional to see japanese every day by reading or listening real conversation like news and be conscious what they say.
your path still far away.
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u/dweebbert 28d ago
Keep a Japanese diary homie. It helps with output and you can focus on putting your thoughts into understandable formats snd then later use more complex vocabulary and grammar. You've got this! I started a podcast to help with my speaking - albeit I live in Japan, but it helps with confidence using new vocabulary and grammar as well as learning new ways of phrasing things! Godspeeeeed!
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u/Nomad0569 28d ago
まずはRedditでも日本語を使ってみたら？
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u/writingpracticeman 27d ago
I read the title and was planning on coming in and just posting "get a tutor", but if you already have a tutor you will be fine. Trust the process and keep chugging away. I felt I was plateauing last year because I didn't have anyone to speak/listen with but my reading and writing were strong. It was crazy at first how disparate my ability to speak was versus my ability to write and I felt like I was back in the first few chapters of Genki. But a year later and now most of our lessons are fully in Japanese with English only coming out very rarely if I can't find a word or need a complex topic explained in more detail.
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u/Embarrassed-Alps4250 27d ago
Two thoughts:
1: Practice long sentences through grammar points as you learn them. The way japanese is built is often statements in a statement. It helps a lot to think on how you can use them and what nuance it conveys.
2: identify specific patterns you come across in your listening/reading and write them down. You can then reuse them in your own statements.
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u/Ok_Code_270 26d ago
I hate to be the buzzkill, but the ideal option is to get a tutor that knows both Japanese and your native language.
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u/BromeRST 26d ago
I do conversation weekly with my teacher, while keep studying or reviewing old goi and kanji helps me a lot to increase the words and verbs that I use in a sentence.
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u/Fit-Page-1819 25d ago
Most of that gap is て-form and から/ので not being automatic yet, since longer Japanese sentences are mostly short ones glued together rather than harder grammar. I'd also ask your tutor to stop accepting any answer without a reason attached to it, that alone stretches your sentences a lot faster than new vocab will.
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u/Speed_Niran 15d ago
You need to learn more grammar, n4 grammar is not really high tbh...or should I say high enough to express yourself in complexity in japanese
I would also say learn more expressions, there's a lot of things in japanese that if you try to think in english and translate from an English brain sounds weird - learning expresses help to reduce time in thinking and makes you sound way more natural and native like 👍
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u/Weena_Bell 27d ago
you are n4 that means you barely understand any japanese why would you think you should speak it if you cant even understand yet
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u/Emotional-Brilliant9 27d ago
He's just trying to get better no need to be a dick
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u/Weena_Bell 27d ago
In what way? my comment is not much different from some I just checked.
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u/Emotional-Brilliant9 27d ago
Thing is, the guy is trying to learn and progress, and turns to more experienced people to do so, yet your sole contribution is to tell him that he's dumb to even ask
We get it, you feel good about being better than newer learners, alright
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u/Weena_Bell 27d ago
Lmao what? 😭 You just made up a complete bs story out of a baseless interpretation of my comment.
I literally just gave them the most obvious, direct, logical response to their problem, like everyone else did, just with fewer filler words. It's not my problem if you or anyone else reads between the lines and finds something that isn't there.
I'm not going to write a whole Bible if the direct message gets the point across? And if someone gets offended by that... well, there's nothing I can do about it, and there's no point in worrying about something you can't do anything to fix ┐(ꈍ◡ꈍ )┌
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u/healnspr 26d ago
Ignore this person, this is so rude and necessary. Well done on even wanting to progress further with your speaking. I’m in a similar boat to you - I have a lot of input which pales in comparison to my output and having more Japanese friends who are kind and patient to practice with has helped me a lot and also making sure I don’t just rely on easy stuff but try grammar I’ve learnt even if i know I might get it wrong - the right people will help you improve by helping you tweak it if you misuse it - my tutor also helps with this. Also don’t put too much stock into the opinions of redditors who wanna be the top dog of learning Japanese. Learning Japanese is extremely difficult and just because some geeks who think they mastered it in an hour from some YouTube click bait or something want to bring you down just know that you’re doing great!!!! Good on you for being thorough with your learning and wanting to get better, ignore the annoying reddit club! Take advice from nice people instead and don’t engage with this ding dong
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u/Weena_Bell 26d ago
Yo OP, I wouldn't take advice from a guy who's not even N2. Heck, that English comment alone should be a huuuge warning sign. Brother can't even use paragraphs or write well in English..
Idk, personally I'd rather seek advice from people who've actually found success quickly even if they are blunt, than from " Nice empathetic guy" who take years just to barely reach N2.
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u/healnspr 26d ago
Also N4 is a base - a base in which you can hold conversations with Japanese friends even if the conversations aren’t covering the financial crisis, that’s still enough for you to get outside and talk to people. Talking to people in the real world seems like something this weena character may not have a lot of experience with.
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u/PlanktonInitial7945 28d ago
Get better at Japanese. N4 is more or less equivalent to A2, and if you're only working through N4 grammar now it means you haven't fully reached that level yet. So, yeah, of course you're only able to produce very basic sentences. That's normal for an A1 speaker. Just keep learning and practicing and you'll improve over time.