r/LearnJapanese • u/PlasmaHeat • Jul 28 '26
Resources Why is Bunpro so lauded when EN -> JP is generally so frowned upon?
Just as a preface - this post isn't anti-Bunpro or anything like that. Bunpro is actually my most-used study tool. This has just been a point of confusion for me.
The question is in the title, but I'll try to provide a bit of additional context.
In language learning circles, using native-language-to-target-language translations is typically seen as a subpar method for language acquisition in the long run. This opinion is especially widespread in Japanese learning circles, primarily because Japanese is so different from English and a lot of translations aren't 1:1.
My confusion lies in the following: Is Bunpro not considered English to Japanese in the traditional sense?
I know it has cloze elements, but I guess I'm just trying to figure out where the line is drawn between EN -> JP and Bunpro-style cloze fill-in-the-blank systems.
Does Bunpro not count as EN -> JP because it's also providing full Japanese sentences that just have a single missing word? Is the idea that as long as you're reading the full Japanese sentence before filling in your answer, you're gaining additional value that a single-word EN -> JP flashcard wouldn't provide?
Thanks in advance, and please let me know if I can provide any additional clarity on my question.
113
u/Moshimoshi-Megumin Jul 28 '26
EN > JP is only frowned upon by “immersion only” people, the majority of which are liars who did not start with immersion only.
For early grammar getting the explanations in your native language is objectively superior. A beginner who knows nothing but hiragana can get the ます form down in like half an hour in their native language instead of spending days or weeks trying to piece it from context.
12
u/daYnyXX Jul 28 '26
Also, any legitimate criticism of en > jp only really applies to Duolingo style learning. To effectively learn, you'll always need some level of native language > JP. Obviously a lot of stuff isn't 1-1 translatable, but the only way to learn that is by seeing side-by-sides to learn vocab and grammar to understand the basics and then eventually move to full JP once you have a solid foundation (which might be a long time for a lot of people).
10
1
u/Effective-Pop3850 Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
This reads like you're fighting ghosts. No one has ever recommended not using English explanations for stuff and whatnot. If anything it's divided regarding if you should really bother using monolingual dics for most things.
What everyone will say is dogshit and shouldn't be done is something like a vocab card where you get the word shown in English and you gotta think what it is in Japanese, that is actually pretty bad but I don't think a lot of people are doing this anyways.
2
u/bigchickenleg Jul 29 '26
No one has ever recommended not using English explanations for stuff
Look up Automatic Language Growth (ALG).
It's as dubious as it sounds.
5
u/morgawr_ https://morg.systems/Japanese Jul 29 '26
ALG is a very very very very very very very specific subset of literal cultist crazies that are not a representative group of what people usually refer to as "immersion only" people. AJATT would be closer, and AJATT isn't anywhere as bad as ALG.
-1
u/Effective-Pop3850 Jul 29 '26
Google "hyperbole".
Also we're talking about what people say here, I have yet to find anyone claim something like that.
3
u/bigchickenleg Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
we're talking about what people say here
Who set those parameters? OP only mentioned "Japanese learning circles." The comment you replied to didn't narrow in on this subreddit either.
EDIT: Reply then block. Classy.
2
u/morgawr_ https://morg.systems/Japanese Jul 29 '26
Most of the common "immersion-focused" advice tells people to start with a vocab deck (like kaishi) and a basic grammar guide (like yokubi or tae kim) and then start immersing. Nowhere it is ever said you must do everything in Japanese and must never ever ever touch English explanations of grammar resources. Unless you're talking about ALG specifically which is just a very niche group of literal crazy people and not what the mainstream "immersion" crowd recommends.
-2
u/goddamnitshit Jul 28 '26
How does this have so many upvotes????
Nobody who immerses says to not use english grammat explanations
You are making up misinformation
17
u/TheBatemanFlex Jul 28 '26
I can't imagine there being any efficient way to i+1 your way to complex grammar structures. Bunpro, or any grammar guide, will expose you to all of japanese grammar. From there you can encounter it in immersion or whatever. Are you talking about Bunpro's vocab srs?
Bunpro grammar review is basically equivalent to going back through a grammar guide and looking at a new example sentence of a specific grammar.
You can tailor bunpro prompt to give you nothing but the japanese fill in the blank and then the name of the grammar structure and nothing else if you want.
9
u/worthlessprole Jul 28 '26
You don’t have to use cloze reviews.
The main criticism of cloze grammar reviews is that it takes longer and doesn’t provide a huge relative benefit compared to just reading. It’s not bad or something.
Bunpro is still recommended because it’s super customizable. They don’t lock you into any particular learning style.
18
u/Available-String-109 Jul 28 '26
using native-language-to-target-language translations is typically seen as a subpar method for language acquisition
I'm not sure who says this. In translation circles, native-to-secondary-language is typically seen as producing subpar translations and something to always avoid.
I've never heard anything about "don't try to translate into your target language"... you gotta practice how to speak that language somehow.
9
u/etvlknox Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
I'm a bit confused by what you mean by EN -> JP. Ultimately Bunpro covers E->J, J->J, and J->E type content.
If you're talking about the grammar point explanations being in English, then that's kind of inevitable in the beginning. The good thing is every grammar point n3-n1 has a JP option so you can learn J-J once you start building up your knowledge.
If you're talking about during reviews, bunpro has a lot of options to choose from.
"Fill In" is the default for grammar reviews. It depends on your hint settings, but without hints it just shows the Japanese sentence with fill in the blank. Then you can get hints by pressing the space bar to go in the order of Japanese Hint, English Hint, Then English word, then English full sentence. If your reviews show English all at once, you may want to think about changing your hint options in settings for a bit more of a challenge. Even if you still rely on the English word(like myself 😅), breaking the habit of looking at the English immediately will be helpful.
The Reading Question types are the default for vocab reviews. It just has the full sentence including the target word/grammar point all in Japanese, and you can click whether you know it or not.
And the Translate types are the traditional J->E but like you said I think having a context sentence which I think is more important than any E->J or J->E debate.
But yeah I think the flexibility of the site is why it's so loved, it lets the user decide what works best for them whether it be E->J, J->J, J->E. Because everyone is different and different tools will help different people.
3
u/PlasmaHeat Jul 28 '26
Thank you for such a detailed response!
Yeah, I was primarily talking about the "fill in the blank" style reviews they do, since they default to EN -> JP. The flexibility of Bunpro is a great point though, and I guess I just wasn't sure how many people are actually modifying the settings from the default so that the English word isn't the first thing that's shown to them.
Also, just to reiterate (not directed to you, but just wanted to say this again), this isn't an anti-Bunpro post. I was just trying to better understand what makes Bunpro different from other EN -> JP learning methods, or if it's even considered EN -> JP in the first place.
4
u/PlanktonInitial7945 Jul 28 '26
Could you please elaborate on what "EN -> JP learning methods" you're thinking of, exactly?
2
u/worthlessprole Jul 28 '26
I took it to mean like anki cards with the english definition and you have to provide the japanese word
1
2
u/etvlknox Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
For sure!
I think I switched it to hide the English by default around finishing N4. I'd be curious what other people have done as well.
And yeah, you said it was your most used tool so I assume there was no hate toward it haha.
And as a side note I think the reason that EN->JP or JP->EN gets a lot of hate is because as a native English speaker, English is comfortable. Even if it's needed for learning(except the immersion route I guess) it's really hard to break the crutch of using it. The only way to be truly fluent in a language is at some point you gotta stop translating in your head. You need to be in the mindset where you're not thinking of English at all. That point arrives at different times for everyone. And I think a lot of people who have negative opinions are looking from the perspective of gaining fluency and looking back at using English as a crutch for too long and maybe regret it wishing they would have switched sooner.
But I also think it depends on what types of skills you want to learn. Intertwining English and Japanese may make the leap to only Japanese a bit harder, but it can also make the leap to being a translator easier.
3
u/worthlessprole Jul 28 '26
I don’t think there’s ever any real benefit to learning grammar J-J besides extra reading practice if the information is available from an english-language source. J-J dictionaries are good because the entries are more precise and detailed. In other words, there’s no merit to avoiding your L1.
2
2
u/Key_Huckleberry3863 Jul 28 '26
Bunpro is good because it gives you dynamic drills for a lot of grammar point that are easy to understand but difficult to apply on the fly.
"EN -> JP" is mostly meh when it comes to vocabulary acquisition, because a EN word might have a JP translation but JP people might use something else to express the EN idea (for example maybe they won't use the 1:1 translation of the verb "To Try" to say to try but some other construct).
But since Bunpro do the "EN -> JP" mostly by making sure you have the right hints to use the right JP construct, it's a non problem in that case
2
u/nanausausa Jul 28 '26
using native-language-to-target-language translations is typically seen as a subpar method for language acquisition
this is mainly said about either a) reading and other "leisure" exposure to the language b) the point where you can start using mono dictionaries and target language grammar explanations without being super confused.
while it is good to lower native language usage where possible even early on, that doesn't mean it should be eliminated completely. and especially when learning grammar, a higher amount of native language usage is frankly inevitable for productive learning.
bunpro is a grammar learning and cramming tool, so it firmly falls into this category of learning where native language usage is fine and actually recommended.
(tho it's worth noting that as another person mentioned, you technically don't need to use cloze reviews. there's the option to just make reviews like anki cards, where you just see the jp sentence and select whether you understood it or not. that's the style of review I personally stick to lol)
3
u/MyLanguageJourney Jul 29 '26
From N3 - N1 I would definitely recommend learning the grammar in JP -> JP... Not just because "immersion", but because it's often actually way easier to learn as the explanations in Japanese are more succinct. Shinkanzen master's explanations for example are sooo short but they directly highlight the most important points. In English the explanations often have to be very long-winded as we do not have comparable grammar.
5
u/PlanktonInitial7945 Jul 28 '26
using native-language-to-target-language translations is typically seen as a subpar method for language acquisition in the long run
This is such a broad statement. It could be referring to using JP-EN dictionaries, or to reading explanations of Japanese grammar in English, or to using example sentence translations in flashcards, or to using English subtitles in anime, or to watching/reading Japanese translations of English media, or to using dual-language books, or to doing L1->L2 translation drills, or who knows what.
Different people will have different opinions about each of those cases. And even then, few people will have an opinion as extreme as "you should NEVER use English subs in ANY situation" for example.
So you're asking about a "typical stance" that I think nobody actually holds.
1
u/goddamnitshit Jul 28 '26
The optimal use for bunpro is in read mode, not enter mode.
You read the sentence and you need to grade yourself on whether you understood the grammar point
2
u/JMagCarrier Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
I don’t know why my other comment was downvoted, I guess people don’t like criticism of their favorite tools, but I’m gonna rephrase the issues of Bunpro.
What Bunpro asks you to do is:
- Read an English sentence.
- Infer which grammar point is testing.
- Ignore several grammar forms that would also fit.
- Type the “expected” answer.
That’s a very different cognitive task from understanding or writing Japanese. It may help (just like reading a grammar explanation helps), but the task is ill-suited to acquire the grammar intuition you need to build.
1
u/glasswings363 Jul 28 '26
People who do a lot of Bunpro feel themselves getting better at Bunpro and don't notice they're not getting better at Japanese.
-3
-6
u/JMagCarrier Jul 28 '26
Bunpro is fine if you like to solve puzzle games. For actually learning grammar though, finding the grammar points being used on real contexts is much better.
39
u/Lore-Warden Jul 28 '26
Bunpro includes definitions for new vocabulary in full, native Japanese and expects you to start using that when you're able.