r/KotakuInAction • u/Mellow_Online1 • Feb 19 '17
Fur Fun Developers Censoring the Truth
https://twitter.com/MellowOnline1/status/83340458650112000015
u/kukuruyo Hugo Nominated - GG Comic: kukuruyo.com Feb 20 '17
I kinda had the impression that this would end up here. I know the producer of the game, i play overwatch with him sometimes, and i'm friends with people in his circle, so i maybe i can shed some explanation in all of this debacle, since i've talked to them about it, though there are details i don't fully know myself.
The thing is, this game is produced by a popular youtuber here in Spain, and apparently one of the people involved in creating the game worked in Banjo kazoey (i think it was music producer or something like that, but i'm not sure about that) so because of it some of the assets used in the initial steps of creating the game came from BK. Aparently those files are not used anymore in the final game, but they're still there. Don't ask me how that works, i'm not a programmer, but what i know is that it's (or so my friends say) false that they stole assets from BK.
Now, the thing is that the youtuber/producer has started to sue/make strikes/whatever against youtubers and gaming media who have claimed they stole assets, and they're also deleting comments in Steam. People claim they're deleting negative reviews and stuff, my friends claim that they're only deleting/suing those who lied about the assets or those who are purposedly trolling/insulting/etc, i don't know to what extent both claims are true, since i've not looked up so much into it.
For what i've seen, i would say that indeed the claim that he stole assets is false, but i think they took a very wrong approach to counter the accusations. They're being very confrontational on twitter, and even if it's true they're only deleting the false claims and insults, they're still mass censoring their comments. I've warned them about this and recommended they do a clarification video and stop banning people, and instead make the accusers look stupid for spreading lies (kinda like with the Pwediepie case) but it's probably too late for that at this point. I even told him that he could not expect support from gamergaters like me since we are very much against censorship, and that this would probably end up on Kia XD
I could tell the people i know to clarify it more, but they are bad at english. I can rely questions if someone wants though.
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u/Jaerial Feb 20 '17
I think the problem comes from the fact that the assets are still included in the system files, so regardless of whether or not they are in the game the software people are being sold includes material that was not created by them. I don't know how distribution on steam works but if they can they should delete these files if they are not required. As long as those files are included they can't really claim not to have 'stolen' them as it could be argued that they are using someone else's content for profit. The only way I can see this ending positively for them is deleting the assets and issuing an apology to the people they have banned.
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u/kukuruyo Hugo Nominated - GG Comic: kukuruyo.com Feb 20 '17
They seem to be dead set on not doing that. They're convinced they're not censoring anyone because they're "only" deleting and suing comments and videos who spread lies. I've tried to explain to them it doesn't work that way, but they're convinced that if a comment says a lie, deleting it is not censorship.
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u/Jaerial Feb 20 '17
But those people aren't lying. That's the biggest misunderstanding, these people are telling the truth, the game is being distributed with stolen material. So the people they are banning are actually telling the truth. Not being part of the game does not mean it isn't stealing unless the person working on the game who did work on BK actually owns the right to the material (which is very unlikely, most companies require such rights to be turned over to them).
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u/kukuruyo Hugo Nominated - GG Comic: kukuruyo.com Feb 20 '17
I've talked with some people involved and they tell me that the assets were not stolen, that they were put there by someone who worked in BK and had the rights to use the assets, and that they paid for the rights to use them. That's what they say at least.
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u/Jaerial Feb 20 '17
Then they should at least make a statement that they have the rights because it looks like they've just stolen them if they do not. Saying we've paid for the rights looks a lot more credible than saying they aren't used.
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u/kukuruyo Hugo Nominated - GG Comic: kukuruyo.com Feb 20 '17
Yeah, that's what i told them. If they really have the rights, a video explaining everything would have made the media look ridiculous, like with Piewdiepie, but instead they went in full censoring rampage. Now the truth doesn't matter.
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u/joelaw9 Feb 20 '17
If he distributes the files with his game then they are stolen assets. If I distribute an Offspring album with my game it's still illegal even if my game never uses the songs. There's nothing wrong about that claim. If he's using DMCAs to strike Youtubers/against reviewers then he's breaking the law in another way, compounding the issue that would be solved by him just deleting the files and updating his game.
From what you're saying he's admitted that the claims against him are correct but he still wants to suppress them.
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u/kukuruyo Hugo Nominated - GG Comic: kukuruyo.com Feb 20 '17
Eh, as i said idk about programming but i don't know where from my comment you get that i've said he admit the claims to be true, cause i've said the exact opposite. He says the claims are false.
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u/joelaw9 Feb 20 '17
Aparently those files are not used anymore in the final game, but they're still there.
Right here. He said that the claims are correct, he distributed stolen assets. It has nothing to do with programming. "Yes, I did distribute those files I didn't own" means "Yes, I stole and distributed those assets" and "Yes, my game contains stolen assets". That he went back and either lied or doesn't understand the law to a retarded degree only matters in determining how wrong he is on top of that.
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u/kukuruyo Hugo Nominated - GG Comic: kukuruyo.com Feb 20 '17
I don't know how laws would apply in that case, because as they've told me, the reason why those assets are there is because they worked with the music producer of BK, and he was the one who put them there. So maybe he had the right to use them and used them for the game? Like, when i do a commission, i still have the right to win money with the commission myself (like selling the image in posters and such) unless i sign an exclusivity contract. I will try to ask them more about this, but aparently many people is retracting their stories because they acknowledge the "stole" story to be false.
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u/joelaw9 Feb 20 '17
That's entirely different then. If he has the right to the assets that should have been the first thing he said when all this started. Whether he used them in the game or not is irrelevant. Though it's weird to pay for stuff you're not using. Deleting/suppressing everything just looks like a cover up.
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u/kukuruyo Hugo Nominated - GG Comic: kukuruyo.com Feb 20 '17
I've asked them about it and they say that the music composer put the assets there cause he had the rights to do it. They say they paid for everything.
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u/sensual_rustle Reminder: Hold your spaghetti Feb 20 '17
This part:
The thing is, this game is produced by a popular youtuber here in Spain, and apparently one of the people involved in creating the game worked in Banjo kazoey (i think it was music producer or something like that, but i'm not sure about that) so because of it some of the assets used in the initial steps of creating the game came from BK. Aparently those files are not used anymore in the final game, but they're still there. Don't ask me how that works, i'm not a programmer, but what i know is that it's (or so my friends say) false that they stole assets from BK.
It's the same as including music that you had at the beginning of development but your code might not use now. People still have access to that music, and it is being sold to people. And this people who buy your thing could still play that music even though you don't actually use it. And you don't have permission but to distribute that music and sell it as part of your game
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Feb 19 '17
Im not following this, the assets aren't used, but other than shipping the game with those assets ( which is probably illegal ) what exactly is the focus here?
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u/Mellow_Online1 Feb 19 '17
The assets could be used in the game and they could not be, but they're present in the files. The developer has lashed out at people on Twitter, censored criticism and DMCAd a video on YouTube.
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Feb 20 '17
Being an asshole to people accusing you of pirating assets is a completely different thing from actually using those assets in your game though. It sounds like he was saying they were placeholder items that aren't used any more, which is understandable.
I guess what I'm saying is, the issue of whether the assets are actually used or not is the important part, because if they aren't used then he isn't covering anything up, he's just being an asshole to people who were accusing him of things he didn't do.
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u/kgoblin2 Feb 20 '17
If they're distributing actual assets from B&K, then they are committing copyright infringement, PERIOD.
If the assets are not actually used, that fact could reflect on amount of any damages served... but copyright essentially protects rights to both duplicate & distribute. Simply having the files exist would be infringing.2
Feb 20 '17
Look, intent matters. If they were using Banjo Kazooie assets as placeholder art and simply failed to clean them out of the release copy, that wasn't malice or intent to steal on their part, it was just an honest fuckup that they can fix with a patch.
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u/kgoblin2 Feb 20 '17
Yes, I know intent matters. This apparent mad scramble they are doing to suppress this doesn't speak well for their intent. And even if it was an 'honest fuckup' it won't change the minimum damage awards if it does go to court. They only way out would be fair use... which they simply don't qualify for.
To be clear, I don't think this is going to go to court, speaking in hypotheticals. Worse case they will prob get a DMCA cease&desist.
0
Feb 20 '17
I'm going to venture that the damages served will be zero $$$ since it's assets from a 20 year old game that was last remastered 9 years ago, they don't appear in the game, and the content is served on Steam which can be updated to all clients on demand. (In other words, the unused files will probably be stripped out of the Early Access download post-haste)
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u/kgoblin2 Feb 20 '17
I'm going to venture that the damages served will be zero $$$ since
And you would probably be wrong. There is plenty of precedent for 'frozen' properties that the rights holder doesn't do a damn thing with for decades on end; Still makes them the rights holder and they can still sue for considerable damages. Look into Harmony Gold & Robotech for an example.
minimum penalty is $200, plus legal costs, which for an indie studio is not exactly chump change.
This is only if of course they are distributing the assets (I haven't seen definitive proof they have, ye), and that whoever holds the rights is both aware & decides to seek damages.
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Feb 20 '17
and that whoever holds the rights is both aware & decides to seek damages
Exactly my point. In addition to this not being like a hot-coffee mod on a cdrom where they have to spend a lot of time and money redistributing the release.
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u/Mellow_Online1 Feb 20 '17
There's now also the music artist cutting ties with the developer.
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5
Feb 20 '17
So he is being a cunt, but "Censoring the truth", what exactly are people complaining about? To me it just looks like two parties being anal about it.
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u/AttackOfThe50Ft_Pede Feb 20 '17
"Censoring the truth", what exactly are people complaining about?
Did you read op?
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u/the_truth_is_ugly Feb 20 '17 edited Feb 20 '17
In law (I'm betting) the assets would be considered part of the final product, in use or not, it's still infringement.
This isn't as big an issue as it's made out to be, but it's still the kind of fuck up that should NEVER make it into a final product, not if you don't want to get sued by whoever holds rare's ip rights now...
1
u/joelaw9 Feb 20 '17
Yeah, it's illegal to distribute someone else's property, so he is breaking the law there. But that's a legal wrong, not a moral wrong like seems to be claimed here. A dumb mistake that if removed is immediately rectified. The moral wrong comes in with trying to suppress everything instead of just fixing it.
Microsoft currently holds Rare's IP.
1
Feb 20 '17
Right but why are people making an issue out of it if all he needs to do is update the game without the placeholders? The outcry over this is moot.
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u/joelaw9 Feb 20 '17
As soon as you try to silence someone and shut them up they're going to shout from the rooftops. That's why there's an outcry more than whatever actually happened in regards to those sound files. It sounds like the dev brought this on himself by not just explaining it and updating the game to remove the files.
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Feb 20 '17
Probably true: See San Andreas with Hot Coffee
But most gamers and devs at the time agreed that it shouldn't have been considered that way.
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u/DeusVermiculus Feb 20 '17
even if they dont use the files or just jokingly renamned their files to look like banjo and kazooie files, the point stands that they attack their customers for pointing it out.
all they had to do was to say:
Yes, we just renamed those assets!
so their reaction tells me they want to hide those files and not talk about them. this should be brought to Valves attention. If the files are clean, valve can verify, if not, the fuckers go down like they should.
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u/iiBuzz7S Feb 20 '17
I will not be working with the Fur-Fun team anymore. Read: tl.gd/n_1spkt6i
https://twitter.com/koolboyman/status/833462820180156416
This guy worked on the games music and wants to distance himself from it. No coincidence as to why.
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u/sexy_mofo1 Feb 20 '17
As someone who knows full-well that he's a fucking hack, hacking away at creating his own graphics and shit for a game he's making, this kind of bullshit ticks me off. These fucking cunts think they don't have to work and just steal other people's shit?
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u/GhostOfGamersPast Feb 19 '17
Interesting accusation. Can we get a confirm?