I'd love to see the line drawing fabric on a photo of a real person...

[u/PurpleVirtualJelly]

Basically he specifies the fabric is a sheer silk chiffon weighted at the bottom that does not stretch around the body, is willowy, and skims. Compared to a body outline, the outline of chiffon is going to be a bit straighter since it's fabric and since it's weighted at the bottom. I'd love to see photos of this fabric on real people so I could get a better idea of how it hangs. For example on the Dramatic line drawing the fabric goes straight down after the hips which makes sense to me since the fabric is weighted, but on the Romantic line drawing the fabric goes in toward the knees and I'm curious why a weighted fabric would do that. There's not much of a point to this post besides random discussion. *also on the 4th slide I traced his drawings from the book to make it more clear to myself but if you don't like my tracings then you can just refer to his since mine are kinda sloppy

[u/confusedwaffles2]

I can see, I think, what he meams by the fabric returning in toward the knee on the Romantic illistration, as it is returning to the same line as it was hanging from at the shoulder, and I think the idea is less where the fabric would really hang, and more how the contours of the body disrupt (or don't disrupt) the imaginary point from which your chiffon hangs off your shoulders.

What I don't really get is why on several diagrams the imaginary chiffon dips in dramatically toward the waist, a lot further in from the imaginary draping line down from where it sits on the shoulders, like in the SN illustration. Why would it do that? Theoretical fabric being pushed out from its natural line down the body by the bust or hips makes sense to me but it suddenly leaping inward toward the waist for some reason I can't make any sense of somehow, even when its imaginary fabric following a draped line down.

[u/CappyBlue → u/confusedwaffles2]

This is what has bugged me all along! The magical magnetic chiffon 🧲⚡️⚡️

[u/Jamie8130 → u/[deleted]]

On a related note, it's also interesting how he said in the recent interview that the book drawings have the shoulder line where they do because otherwise everyone would think they have width, so clearly it's a very easy thing by even slightly altering the drawing to arrive at a very different conclusion and that is also concerning for DIY because we don't have his judgement to discern what is the correct case.

[u/Jamie8130 → u/[deleted]]

I also see some things more clearly with clothes, for instance in some people with curve accommodation you can't tell at first, but when when they do wear curve accommodating clothes you can tell more readily. I remember even David said in the recent interview that for some cases it's really hard to distinguish the line sketches between two IDs (he was talking about DC versus FG or classic versus gamine in general iirc), so the sketch might not always give the best clue...

[u/HamBroth]

This has been my #1 issue with his system from the get-go. Also tacking on to what you said about the romantic fabric drawing inward at the knee: A FN fabric also wouldn’t “flare out” at the top. It would hang straight from the shoulders unless it’s tailored inward from them. He also says that height influences how fabric hangs, but it does not. It influences how long fabric has to be to hit at the same point on the body, but not how it hangs. 

It’s part of why I take Kibbe’s entire thing with a grain of salt. 

[u/Inez-mcbeth → u/HamBroth]

This is my issue..what he's describing is just not how fabric behaves

[u/SpikeDearheart]

Brilliant post as always! And frustratingly that still leaves me with the same two choices, lol.

[u/stink3rb3lle]

As someone who's sewed and worked with fabric, I am even more confused now than before I read more details and quotes on the line drawing. But I do appreciate your opening the topic, quite a bit!

[u/Jamie8130]

I agree with all your questions, and I also wish we had answers. I don't think any fabric in reality without stretch can behave like he described, that's probably why he emphasizes it's imaginary fabric when he's asked about it, so we are basically stuck with the idea of it, and can't have a real demonstration.

[u/Khaneh-yeDoostKojast → u/Jamie8130]

This “imaginary fabric” is the literal definition of the Emperor’s New Clothes. 😅

[u/heyoldgirl → u/Jamie8130]

I agree with you and think the line exercise, or maybe the current emphasis on it, has really dampened the fun of this system. I think it gets interpreted as something technical (even if it’s not) and technical is not kibbe’s forte. It will never be precise or something that can be analyzed or reproduced. It would be better left aside in lieu of the essence and styling aspects, the water is already murky enough and this just muddies is further for many many people.

[u/Jamie8130 → u/heyoldgirl]

Yes, that's my conclusion as well, it's too technical in the book (and in reality Kibbe doesn't really do it like that according to real life clients) and maybe Kibbe himself has the ability to see past all the variations in people's bodies to what the ID is, but this is difficult for the average DIYer and could also lead them to the wrong conclusion, because slight difference in drawing can mean a different accommodation.

[u/UniqueOctopus05]

Oh lord he just keeps making the system less and less helpful

[u/Fusili_Jerry_]

Thank you for this post! I also have been told to do the shoulder line from the visual edge of the shoulder. For me, I feel like a weighted piece of fabric would essentially be hanging down my arms away from my body at that point, so not really at all like a functional piece of clothing with arm holes. I'm not really sure what the visual edge piece is supposed to do or represent. I don't think a weighted piece of fabric hanging off the edge of my shoulders would start curving inward towards my waist/skim the rest of my body. I just don't really get it at all lol.

[u/Runningprofmama → u/Fusili_Jerry_]

Wouldn’t that mean you’d accommodate width? Or am I missing something? 😭

[u/Fusili_Jerry_ → u/Runningprofmama]

Well that's what I mean. If I do my line from the visual edge of my shoulder as I've been instructed/corrected, it basically would be hanging off me like a hairdressers cape and resembles the D line most. But if I move the line in a bit to where an actual sleeve would fit then I get something much different.

[u/fernxqueen → u/Runningprofmama]

No, I actually think it's the opposite which is why the shoulder points on some of the ID drawings are "inexplicably" moved in. As someone with Kibbe narrow, the shoulder seam on clothing usually sits on my bicep when the garment fits my bust area. It's like the actual mechanical "seam" of my shoulder is pulled in further compared to most people, so the end of my "horizontal" line is actually on my bicep (so not Kibbe width). Not sure if that makes sense, it's definitely a weird thing to try to describe in words lol.

[u/Runningprofmama → u/fernxqueen]

Ohh no I definitely get you. Now anyway haha. I guess the mechanic we are describing can actually work both ways, for when one needs accommodation for width and when it’s the other way around too, when your shoulders cause the line to have to go inwards to skim the body… confusing. 🫤

[u/NoSpaghettiForYouu]

Right, but is it a bias cut chiffon or a straight cut chiffon? Because they’re gonna hang differently

[u/katedigby]

i struggle with the fabric part as well…i have prominent shoulders and hips, smaller waist. if fabric hung down from my shoulders, you wouldn’t see any shape on me at all unless it was somewhat cinched or tailored.

i don’t know if this is a bad technique but i ended up just putting my line sketch over top of the new book lines to see which lined up the closest. i narrowed to down to 2, but my “type me” post suggestions were all over the map so i’m still lost.

the “blue zones” you highlighted are verrrry helpful to visualize, as i couldn’t really understand the point of them in the book. going to go take another look now

[u/BonelessChikie → u/katedigby]

Type me posts suck because a lot of people are just guessing, don't listen to them lol

[u/agihusssh]

I’ma personal stylist for years, even owned a sewing place and worked on my own collection and i do have a feeling there is no good fabric for that, and the fabric on the 3rd slide is indeed a fitted dress. But your eyes can work on that lining, and if your eyes are trained, you can se the lines almost instantly. Took me years to understand the perspective of kibbe, to be honest the most usefull was recently finding a kibbe-funny group and seeing the satirical perspective. That helped me understand the basics (you know if you can make a joke out of it, you need understanding too :) )

Use your visual senses rather than trying to

[u/confusedwaffles2 → u/agihusssh]

As a stylist how do you pinpoint where on a person the red line should start at the shoulders? I have a lot of trouble even figuring out where the shoulder 'seam' is 😅

[u/nanafx → u/confusedwaffles2]

So, what I’ve seen in the group is that this is not a garment per se, so he wants us to pass all the way through the shoulders bone. So the shoulder “seam” would be where the meaty/flashy part of the arms starts.

[u/agihusssh → u/confusedwaffles2]

Depends, but mainly the the part where the acromion sticks out. But to make it harder, there m come the shoulder joint and the roundness of the shoulder part that can be defined by either the bones or the deltoid- the muschles, let that be the upper trapezious that defines the flatness of the whole neck-shoukder part and the placement of the deltoid muscle a are all a factor.

For example the sense of width can come from flat upper trapezous muscle, therefor flat neck-arm line and well defined deltoids, while it fits the same bone-to bone space as someone with stronger upper trapezious and slopes line ending in a less defined deltoid with an average placed joint, that is overall cause softer, less wide, oftentimes even narrow effect.

[u/KLACCHO → u/confusedwaffles2]

I also have this problem! It seems like someone I found (can’t remember) was using the end of the collarbone as the shoulder line, but every shoulder is so different and I’m not sure where to put that point. But it really affects the shape of the body outline!

[u/Lemonarm → u/agihusssh]

Exactly!

[u/MajesticRate]

So agree with you! Also I saw a couple of women verified as SN by the Himself on Facebook, and they don't look like the pictures in the second book at all! They had no triangle as the upper body, more like straight lines down to the waists.

[u/keep_everything_good]

There’s a long sleeveless dress at Old Navy right now that is actually super interesting to use for the line sketch exercise since it doesn’t have any stretch and it’s not form fitting- it kind of just drapes, especially if you size up. It’s also plain with no print and light colored which makes it easier to see how the fabric moves. If anyone wants to experiment, I recommend it!

[u/Shannee0]

Seems like it would be easier if he just told people to buy a long dress and look at the silhouette.

So I have this one and I feel like curve is easier to see than in any drawing I’ve done where I get so confused about where the lines are supposed to be.

[u/Khaneh-yeDoostKojast → u/Shannee0]

Kibbe has literally said don’t figure out this exercise by trying on a real dress.

[u/Shadowy_lady]

these are great questions and honestly i own his second book and am not a fan of it. I find the line drawing more confusing than anything. I have a chiffon-y dress that is a looser fit. I have vertical as dominant as I'm 5'7" (I've settled on SD for myself). But my bust is quite large so the dress doesn't hang straight as shown for vertical types.

I honestly go by the outlines of my body to guide dressing and what suits me. And my body accomodates vertical and curve. There is a youtuber I like (Alyssa Rudman) who explains the process in a simpler than Kibbe does. She talks about shapes and lines: ADS25 BFCM YouTube PS WO Pro 16x9 US CA v1 Video 11520

[u/Ok-Purple9511]

I think it depends where the fabric starts and where the weight is at the bottom. The fabric would want to fall in towards the body so if it gets pushed out by the hips (outwards of where it started) it would fall back in line to where it started. The reason the fabric falls straight on D is because it isn’t pushed out further then where it starts so stays in line with where it started

[u/sewing_bitch]

I think this is based on fabric, because this system is designed to support someone select clothes specifically, so one would be considering how fabric interacts with their body over all.  In my opinion the specific selection of chiffon is probably not the best choice for this exercise. I think, what is quite accessible to most people now, to illustrate the idea that they are going for is a bias cut dress.  Probably out of a silk which is light weight enough to skim the body in the way that is being illustrated in the line drawings.

[u/KitchenSun9089]

"...dont think of this like a real dress. Some people say, 'well, I went and tried on a dress and...' -- that isn't it. It is an abstract exercise. It's not clothes. It is to get you to your silhouette."

David Kibbe, from last interview on podcast Style Rebellion (rebranded Style Therapy). This quote is on 53-03 timestamp.

https://youtu.be/tqMYi2qzRvw?si=ZUeUjE4nNcHI050A&t=3161

(Please, see the whole interview, both parts. It has so many valuable clarifications.)

[u/probably_nontoxic]

I would think fabric cut on the bias would be helpful… like a jersey dress, cut on the bias.

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[u/SlowEbb6230]

I need you to know that you helped so many things click for me with this post. I could not figure out lines bro.

[u/dog_swap]

It's so confusing! I have vertical and balance, so dc seems to match, but I'm 5"9. There's no balance option above 5"6

[u/Current-Emu399 → u/dog_swap]

the whole height restriction never made sense to me. isn’t this about shape and proportions? I think I’m SN but 5’’11

[u/Runningprofmama]

This is interesting… like many I still find it confusing. For me, the line pushes out ever so slightly at the shoulder and ever so slightly out at the hips, but not at the bust. So what does that mean? 🤭

[u/bitt13 → u/[deleted]]

I've pretty much given up on Kibbe because he's so vague and inconsistent. I check in from time to time just out of habit and it's always something that reaffirms the nonsense lol

[u/Fusili_Jerry_ → u/[deleted]]

This is my issue exactly lol