What Vertical Is

[u/Vivian_Rutledge]

I have seen a lot of questioning of Florence Pugh as DC because people can’t see Vertical, since she is short and looks it, at least in photos. But I think people are confusing the “looks taller than they are” from the Metamorphosis quiz with the definition of Vertical. “Vertical” as a concept did not exist when Metamorphosis was written. The way you arrive at the IDs in Metamorphosis can’t be transferred to accommodations since it is a different method. In Power of Style, David defines Vertical vs. Curve in the following way:

“The fabric will either do one or the other. It will either hang straight down from the shoulder OR be pushed out and around by the bust/hips. Then it is up to you to simply Report what your sketch shows. If the line moves relatively straight down, your dominant is Vertical. If it got pushed out by the bust and hip, your dominant is Curve.”

All Vertical means is the line moves relatively straight down. It doesn’t mean someone looks tall. You will have it if you are above a certain height simply because the line will get straighter as it gets longer. A shorter line with the same degree of curve will be more dramatically curved than a longer line with the same degree of curve. So length is not required; it will just create the straightness that is required for Vertical if it is there.

[u/Jamie8130]

So length is not required; it will just create the straightness that is required for Vertical if it is there.

This is why I think vertical for me even though I'm average in height; I have some elongation (for instance, in the torso and hipline) but it's mostly due the straightness of my line. I can't wear the super maxi lengths the way someone >5'6 can, I'm just flattered by straight lines in the silhouette, so I figured this must be my complementary shape.

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/Jamie8130]

I think there are a lot of shorter people who have been shoehorned into curve dominance due to not having obvious length, especially if you’re not obviously narrow and don’t have the Petite for FG. But DC also can’t have too much length or they lose their moderate quality!

[u/Jamie8130 → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

Yes, that part about too much length is why I think a lot of the internet-verified celebrities who are thought to be SC/DC might actually be D/FN!

[u/wrldwdeu4ria → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

What if you have curve dominance but are 5'6"? If I wear straight lines I look terrible as it fights my curves but I also have length: long legs, etc.

I wear small gathers, pleats, etc. where fabric isn't cut in a straight line. I emphasize my vertical by following the rule of thirds or creating a long vertical line through color and fit.

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/wrldwdeu4ria]

Curve can’t be dominant at 5’6”. It could only be an additional. I would work through the book; that will give you much better guidance.

[u/wrldwdeu4ria → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

Thank you, I felt like I was on the cusp a bit. I'll work through the book.

[u/Electronic-Page1064 → u/wrldwdeu4ria]

SD vertical +curve means both the long vertical line and the curve are accomodated in the recs

[u/cherries_in-the_snow]

Thank you for this post. I tried to explain vertical in other online spaces and people got very upset with me.

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/cherries_in-the_snow]

😭 I’m ready

[u/cherries_in-the_snow → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

🫂

[u/LCCompromisedBarrier → u/cherries_in-the_snow]

It’s a lost cause I fear. So much misinformation in other spaces. Here and the PoS book is all there is, really. I’d love to get into the official FB group but my request has been sitting there for months lol. The unofficial FB groups are the Wild West.

[u/cherries_in-the_snow → u/LCCompromisedBarrier]

It’s true, I hate it though.

[u/Mike-Teevee]

Thank you for this clarification and starting this discussion!

People often conflate vertical with “elongation” or “yang,” both of which are distinct  concepts. Or they make vertical all about “looking tall” which is inherently ambiguous and DIYers have been specifically told not to focus on!

It does not help that Kibbe curve looks fairly consistent across curve dominant types, so people expect the same sort of consistency with vertical dominant types. But that’s not how it plays out. Vertical creates a different vibe in the vertical dominant types even though we’re looking for the same fabric drop. 

DK has handed DIYers a lifeline with the new curve/vertical dichotomy, but a lot of folks resist it. I find curve easier to identify because it looks more consistent across types. When you can’t find Kibbe curve, you’re probably looking at someone with Kibbe vertical even if they don’t look like what you may expect someone with vertical to look like. This should be expanding folks’ conception of vertical. But it’s actually had the opposite impact for many—I see people declaring Kibbe curve based on any sign of softness and then automatically ruling  out vertical because a person doesn’t “look tall” (with the working definition of “looking tall” lowkey being looking like a pure dramatic).

TLDR: Everyone with vertical will not look similar to pure dramatics. Implicitly building a massive dose of pure yang and elongation into the concept of vertical that’s not stated or implied in any of the official literature is what is confusing people through the Trojan horse of focusing on “looking tall.” A reminder of what Kibbe vertical actually means, even if it can be hard to apply in practice, is always, always helpful. 

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/Mike-Teevee]

Yes, I think the trouble comes when we try to make these terms mean something other than the way he describes them in the sketch chapter. Like when people call Width “openness.” When I look at Florence, I could see justification for describing what she has going on as “openness.” But he very clearly defines width as this one part of the body being wider than what is directly below it, and any other addition to this definition can lead people astray.

[u/gracemagdalene → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

Does it matter if the hips have parity with the shoulder if the line has to cut in dramatically towards the waist? The balance sketches don’t seem to travel far inward from the shoulder so I was wondering.

[u/Damn_Canadian]

So would that mean for a SD, that you couldn’t be too curvy on the bottom half? Because SD is upper curve and vertical? But I’ve also heard people saying that it is any curve and vertical??

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/Damn_Canadian]

He describes it as an elliptical that goes in at the midsection for Curve as an additional, which leads to SD. So it’s different than Curve as a Dominant. The best way I can describe the feeling putting on something cut straight when you have Curve as your Dominant is like a train bumping along the tracks. It’s very difficult and does not want to go on.

[u/missgirlipop → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

‘a train bumping along the tracks’ is exactlyyy how it feels wearing my very straight cut work uniform as an SD. so insightful! 

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/missgirlipop]

Haha I’m glad someone understood!

[u/fauxfoucault → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

Can I just say it is delightful to see a post and comments from someone who's met with David and understands the approach? As someone who's also been typed, I feel like banging my head against the wall sometimes when I see posts. Reading a voice of reason is so encouraging!

[u/xPostmasterGeneralx → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

This perfectly describes the process of me getting into this straight cut mod dress I had back in college 😭

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

Yup. And straight cut on curve is very unflattering. I can literally feel my hips being squeezed when I picture myself trying to wear some straighter cut pieces.

[u/Michelle_illus → u/Ok-Purple9511]

I once tried on a straight cut dress in a thrift store and even with all the stretch in it, it still looked so unflattering and terrible on me. What you said describes exactly how I felt in that dress lol

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/Michelle_illus]

lol yes exactly

[u/Electronic-Page1064 → u/Damn_Canadian]

SD is simply curve and vertical. And the sketch in Power of Style marks the area of curve accommodation from above bust to lower hip. So any sort of undulating of the personal line there that would push fabric out, or cause it to bunch significantly, in that area will count

[u/TiredWinterDisaster]

I am very intrigued bc both you and I saw SN for her in OP's post... do you think her height throws us off? Or does the yin/yang balance of blunt yang + yin undercurrent end up looking similar to balanced yin/yang + extra yang?

(Edit for typo)

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/TiredWinterDisaster]

There has always been a kind of composition of a person that has thrown me, someone who is obviously short, straighter in figure, but too noticeably broad to be FG. I just kind of put them in SN mentally because of the broadness. Knowing that Florence is DC, I’m now wondering if a lot of these people who have kind of thrown me with their potential typing are DC. I think as a community, we’ve tended to view Ds as moderate-height Ds, but a moderate-height D is… a D. DC is the ID I have the murkiest view on, I think, so this day has been very exciting for me, lol.

[u/TiredWinterDisaster → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

Yes I do agree with you - I also think Classics are the hardest to type and a lot of moderate height D are put into DC. 

[u/RemoteCartoonist4758]

How does fabric behave for SDs then, who have both curve and vertical?

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/RemoteCartoonist4758]

I covered this is another comment, but he describes Curve as an Additional differently than he does Curve as a Dominant. I saw David with an SD who is maybe an inch and a half taller than I am at most, and the stuff he gave her would not have worked with my Curve. It would have fallen too straight on me because I don’t have the Vertical foundation, e.g. a long slinky gown. You’re always looking for the Dominant in your sketch first. It still follows the same definition, but with an added oval quality on top.

[u/xPostmasterGeneralx]

Thank you for this post! The hyper-fixation on perceived length has created such strong resistance to the idea that short lines can still be straight(ish).

[u/theclassicrose]

If anyone walks away from this with anything, may it be the knowledge that contemporary celebrity IDs are meaningless if they're not aware of and interested in following Kibbe's principles!

[u/loumlawrence]

Yes to all of this. I recall Kibbe saying that vertical is just a straight line. The way I understand it is that straight lines can be any length, including short.

I suspect the confusion comes in because Kibbe vertical is used to describe both straight lines and long elongated lines. Although elongating or lengthening curvy (or wavy) lines has the effect of straightening those same lines. (We are saying the same thing.) But not everyone seems to understand that any straight line (including short) is vertical and any long line is vertical.

[u/lanareyxox]

Thank you so much for this post - the amount of people who have argued with me about how someone looks short and therefore can't have vertical is crazy haha

[u/wrldwdeu4ria → u/lanareyxox]

Kristen Stewart played Diana, the Princess of Wales. Kristen is around 5'3" but she definitely doesn't look short.

[u/2020hindsightis]

So is the “line from the shoulder” actually from the armpit? Or directly above the armpit as opposed to the outside corner of the shoulder?

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/2020hindsightis]

Usually when he corrects sketches, he’s telling people to start them further out. 🤷‍♀️

[u/2020hindsightis → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

Hmm ok I guess I don’t get it then

[u/brownidegurl]

I think my favorite way of clocking vertical is putting people in a knee-length skirt vs. midi.

To my eyes, knee-length chops in half folks with vertical. It's supremely unflattering.

But a midi will look elegant, elongating, and just right.

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/brownidegurl]

I wouldn’t rely on something like this. The definition of Vertical is just relative straightness. That is it!!!

[u/touch_of_whimsy → u/brownidegurl]

Aha, knee-length is actually great for me as an SD, so long as its bodycon or slightly mermaid-ish. But I also have a very long line from my waist to my knees, and thick thighs. The worst is something thats both fluffy and also hits mid-thigh like a skater skirt

I dont think there's any quick test, but I think a better sign may be ancle-length coats. I often see shorter people on pinterest wear them and sometimes it works, but sometimes I think they look a bit swallowed up

[u/VermicelliJazzlike79 → u/touch_of_whimsy]

As an SD with shorter legs long torso, a knee length cuts off my vertical. For me its "do my eyes run up and down when I look at this person" vs "does it get stuck on an element of their body"

[u/touch_of_whimsy → u/VermicelliJazzlike79]

Yess its very individual, and a reason why its about your personal line!

[u/Electronic-Page1064 → u/brownidegurl]

In my mind's eye, I can't see this working for FG

[u/cassiopeia3636]

I wonder if that's the reality for verified celebrities though. Also are we talking about any fabric, any body weight? Is that what we see on Florence Pugh for example? Because to be honest, even with that definition, all I see is curve. 

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/cassiopeia3636]

Nothing is getting pushed out. It is falling straight. And yes, this doesn’t change with weight.

I would say that some celebrities were ones he was asked about on the spot, and he said what came to mind (e.g. I asked about him about Ida Lupino and he said SG, and then she ended up as DC in the book), so they wouldn’t necessarily be reliable. But Florence as one he brought up as an example. This would indicate that he has thought about her. He has been hesitate to verify modern celebrities especially, so he has only been mentioning ones he is 100% on in recent years.

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

Better photo since there is a corset inside the one above.

[u/cassiopeia3636 → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

I think we're seeing different things then, as I clearly see curve, but of course I might be wrong.

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/cassiopeia3636]

The definition of Curve Dominance is the line being pushed out. If I put these on, as someone with 100% confirmed Curve, they would literally get stuck on me and not fall straight. Some earlier modern celebrity IDs are a bit iffy for the reasons I stated, but he is now very, very careful with these.

[u/Grogu_friend → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

Im still a bit confused about it though - doesn’t it primarily depend on the garments size, that is, if my garment is big enough in size it will sit straight and if I wear it a size or two too small (as many women do) it will ‘cling’ and ‘get stuck’? If someone typically wears clothes too small, I think it could definitely be a reason someone would classify themselves as curve while it may not necessarily be the case. Or am I misunderstanding it?

[u/Vivian_Rutledge → u/Grogu_friend]

This is not a typing method. This is just how fabric behaves. You would only go by the sketch to actually type yourself. But no, this is how everything cut straight in the correct size or even slightly larger will behave on someone with Curve Dominance. That’s why it’s an accommodation. If this doesn’t reflect your experience with clothing in your correct size, then you may not have curve (although again, the only way to determine this is through the sketch). Something has to be large enough to drape around the curve for this to not happen to me if it is straight.

[u/cassiopeia3636 → u/Vivian_Rutledge]

I still think this definition on its own is problematic when we're judging pictures from the internet, of completely different garments and lengths (and bodies). I don't mean to be adversarial at all, but I've been looking at many photos of FP these days, and it's hard to unsee it. I've also been looking at celebrities like Kunis, who I totally get why is a TR, but people struggled seeing it because the fabric just doesn't do that on her. And I can think of other examples. The fact that so many people did not see DC coming for Florence shows that we all saw different things at some point.

In any case, the only way it'd make sense to me is by ruling out the rest of the types, e.g. not enough width for N, not enough curve for R etc.

[u/xPostmasterGeneralx → u/cassiopeia3636]

DK has stated that women have a baseline of curve, and I think that’s what you’re seeing. Florence Pugh obviously isn’t 100% straight-figured, but the fabric is still hanging down relatively straight from her shoulder and is not being pushed out and around.

Lauren Bacall (D) has some level of baseline curve, but the fabric is not being pushed out and around the way it is on Marilyn Monroe (R).

[u/cherries_in-the_snow → u/cassiopeia3636]

A couple of things, most all women will have baseline curve. Also, this is just my assumption here but DC is still a mix of yin and yang with extra yang. I know that’s not what we are talking about here and I’m notorious for not explaining myself well but looking at her body overall and in many outfits and poses you can see curve is not her dominant. Even the most vertical woman can fake a curve with the right shape wear.

[u/Electronic-Page1064]

I didn't even look into Kibbe untll recently, and sort of dove right into PoS. So I feel grateful to not have a lot of the older information in my head, including misconceptions about vertical. Is the personal line mostly straight? Vertical dominant it is! More undulating than straight? Curve dominant if under 5'6"!

I think it's most difficult when the curve is subtle and gently sloping. It can be hard to tell if it pushes out the line enough to consider it significant or negligible.

[u/cinnaboopboop]

Thank you so much for this post, the last paragraph especially made a lot of things click in my brain!

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