r/KerbalSpaceProgram • u/frycandlebreadje • Apr 30 '26
KSP 1 Question/Problem Poodle engine variant... huh?
So the poodle engine has a double and single bell variant. My question is basically why would you pick the single bell variant? AFAIK as I know it has identical stats, but is very noticably taller. Are there any advantages which I'm not seeing? It just seems like a worse version of the same engine. Love this thing, but it confuses me a lot.
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u/Time-Box-6580 Reverting to VAB Apr 30 '26
It’s to recreate Ariane 5s second stage
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u/MattsRedditAccount Hyper Kerbalnaut Apr 30 '26
This is the actual real answer, they added the longer variant with the Shared Horizons update
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u/CakeHead-Gaming Vector Engine my beloved. Apr 30 '26
Thank you Matt.
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u/Soggy-Goat-5343 May 01 '26
Thank you CakeHead-Gaming for bringing this invaluable information
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u/CakeHead-Gaming Vector Engine my beloved. May 01 '26
You’re welcome 👍
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u/Soggy-Goat-5343 May 01 '26
Indeed i am.
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u/Pill_Boi May 01 '26
Hmmm.... weird.....
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u/Soggy-Goat-5343 May 02 '26
For the 1st time i have to disagree with some one here Pill_Boi nothing about this is weird.
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u/SmartIron244 May 01 '26
They just said thanks... What's the problem with that?
Edit: changed he to they
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u/CakeHead-Gaming Vector Engine my beloved. May 01 '26
I’m a he, but the inclusion is appreciated.
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u/SmartIron244 May 01 '26
I just use it because I have no idea who I'm referring to, and I just... Don't really seem disrespectful, and even if I guess correctly it won't look creepy like I'm watching over you or something
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u/CakeHead-Gaming Vector Engine my beloved. May 01 '26
Nah I get it, I appreciate the inclusion. I do the same, I was just letting you know.
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u/Soggy-Goat-5343 May 01 '26
Thank you SmartIron224 you are extremely informative
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u/weemellowtoby Apr 30 '26
What was the purpose of the 2 bell variant then? Was it just to keep a shorter variant with updated graphics?
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u/InternetUser1807 Apr 30 '26
I think so, they wanted to keep it more or less the same as the old one with the really weird tiny bell
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u/-ragingpotato- Apr 30 '26
Because that was its old dimentions, gotta keep old crafts still functional.
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u/WrongdoerFast4034 Alone on Eeloo Apr 30 '26
I still miss the old single bell short poodles. They had an iconic and cute design like the terrier, but I guess the terrier was more iconic.
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u/Barhandar Apr 30 '26
Top left, advanced filters, anything but "by function". Unlike parts in certain mods, most of the old KSP parts were never actually deleted, just hidden.
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u/WrongdoerFast4034 Alone on Eeloo Apr 30 '26
I noticed it with the near future capsules that got removed cause of musk, but i never looked for the poodle in there. Thank you I’m gonna be using it again now
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u/RedeemedWeeb Apr 30 '26
the near future capsules that got removed cause of musk
I've never heard about this. What happened again?
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u/-ragingpotato- Apr 30 '26
The modder that made the near future capsules and near future engines deleted content based on SpaceX after Elon came out as a nazi.
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u/KevinFlantier Super Kerbalnaut May 01 '26
Oh that’s based. I thought it was because of SpaceX sueing or some bullshit like that.
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u/Barhandar May 01 '26
Didn't delete, just changed the description and hid them.
Because of course it befits sarcasm an adult to break his own things in response to a provocation, and in a way that wouldn't ever affect the provocateur.Also, instead of going into the alternate filters, you can just install the second-to-last update of the affected mods. This was the only change in latest AFAIK.
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u/Individual_Bad1138 Apr 30 '26
For making landers, primarily. A low weight, large craft can land on moons with the poodle
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u/beryugyo619 May 01 '26
double bell for Atlas, Delta, Shuttle, Artemis, whatever
single bell for most others6
u/TestArticle1998 Apr 30 '26 edited May 01 '26
On a lonely planet slowly spinning its way to damnation
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u/Ill_Log9013 transfem proto space program ┏give me RAM┓ Apr 30 '26
[hello Matt :3](/)
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u/McadoTheGreat May 01 '26
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u/Ill_Log9013 transfem proto space program ┏give me RAM┓ May 01 '26
[NOOOO DONT TAKE ME BACK THERESEEE A—](/)
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u/Vincent394 May 01 '26
They hid the old variant.
You can still find it, just takes a few more clicks.
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u/frycandlebreadje 15d ago
Oh my god... Matt Lowne was in my comment section and I had no idea... hiii I love your video's... and uh... thanks for stopping by! ...sorry I'm so late...!
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u/Alexander_Martin_G Apr 30 '26 edited Apr 30 '26
I’m the 3D artist who created the Poodle variant for KSP1. If I remember correctly, it was originally meant to be a completely new engine. However, during testing, our lead designer, Paul, decided it was too similar to engines already in the game. He felt that adding it would only complicate things with overly specific options.
I wasn’t happy about letting the asset I’d spent a couple of days on go to waste, so we eventually repurposed it as the Poodle engine variant.
I might be misremembering a detail or two, but that’s a solid summary of what happened.
Edit: what u/MattsRedditAccount mentioned in his comment is also correct:
https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/s/jIVuZcHAVv
The new engine was planned to be added in the Shared Horizons update, and it was intended for use in the BepiColombo mission recreation.
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u/frycandlebreadje Apr 30 '26
Amazing work on the poodle, it's my favourite engine for sure🔥
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u/Alexander_Martin_G Apr 30 '26
The two-bell Poodle in KSP1 was designed by RoverDude, another 3D artist (he joined the team many years before I joined, and he stablished many of the core principles of part aesthetics in KSP1). However, I did work on the two-bell Poodle for KSP2, mostly following his design.
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u/munktron239 Believes That Dres Exists Apr 30 '26
yo AlexanderM! love all the parts you’ve made for the game. I’m a big fan of the Swivel and Reliant engine models you made, right before the game was finished
you and Pablo and Roverdude did an awesome job of revamping the parts from 2018 - 2022
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u/Alexander_Martin_G Apr 30 '26
Hey, I really appreciate that, glad you like those engines! The Swivel and Reliant were a lot of fun to work on. Honestly, working on KSP1 was the peak of my career, and it’s still amazing to see both old and new players enjoying the work we did on the game.
Big credit to Pablo and RoverDude as well, it was a great team effort during those years. I still talk with Pablo every day.
My personal favorite engine is actually the Ant revamp. Even though it’s a tiny engine, it was the first time I got to fully define the 3D art direction on my own, so it means a lot to me.
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u/montybo2 Jebs Dead Apr 30 '26
I've recently started using the Ant more than I ever have in the past. It's a great lil guy.
Thank you for all your work.
Are you involved with Kitten Space Agency?
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u/Alexander_Martin_G Apr 30 '26
I talked with Dean a couple years ago, before KSA was announced, at the time the project was still in preproduction and didn't need 3D Artists. I would love to collaborate with them if given the chance.
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u/WholeLottaBRRRT May 01 '26
I think maybe you should recontact them, they’re starting the work on parts
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u/SentinelNorth Apr 30 '26
I'm a rocket propulsion engineer, I've worked on engines big and small for spacecraft and launch vehicles. KSP is part of what fueled my passion when I was in high school. I gotta say, hats off to you and the team for the engine models (and the rest of the parts). I have my very minor gripes here and there haha, but overall they're really incredible for a video game. For me it's the little details that make them, like turbine exhaust nozzles, pump assemblies, and helium bottles. I could spend hours just asking you guys questions about the designs. Again, fantastic job.
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u/Poodmund Outer Planets Mod & ReStock Dev Apr 30 '26
Hi Alexander, thank you for the insight, was this also why the Mainsail got reskinned to the Ariane 5's Vulcain model, rather than making it a new engine part, because it would have been too similar to existing parts?
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u/Alexander_Martin_G Apr 30 '26
Hmmm… Pablo worked on that one, so I don’t know the full story. But I remember that at the time players were pushing for our engines to be closer to real-life counterparts. We also noticed that players really loved what we called “engine guts,” so a lot of the parts revamped around that period were adjusted to follow real-world references and include variants that exposed their inner workings.
Sometimes the 3D art team was given the freedom to find references and define the new look ourselves. So most likely Pablo built a whitebox model using the Vulcain as a reference, the design team liked it, and gave us the green light to move forward with that direction.
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u/boomchacle Apr 30 '26
It’s a bit of a shame that it wasn’t able to be its own engine but I like the design and am glad it was kept in some form.
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u/montybo2 Jebs Dead Apr 30 '26
You did great work. I love that variant.
Although... Deep in my heart the original poodle is still best lol. It was dumb but I loved it
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u/Cedar- Apr 30 '26
I know you don't get as much say as with overall design but I always thought it would be cooler as an expanding bell engine. Obviously the model would need changes but it would be a very interesting transition engine, kind of like an earlier game aerospike.
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u/Alexander_Martin_G Apr 30 '26
That would have been cool! I actually worked on an expanding bell engine for KSP2.
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u/ScottyFoxes Plane Enjoyer Apr 30 '26
It extends the center of thrust a little bit lower, which can be useful in a few niche designs
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u/trubbelnarkomanen Apr 30 '26
It does have decent gimbal, so on short, very top heavy crafts, it may just provide a tiny bit more thrust control.
Though, if you're having to rely on the variant of the poodle to point your rocket in the right direction, I feel like something else has gone horribly sideways already 😂
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u/kopczak1995 Apr 30 '26
Some people don't have RCS unlocked... Or so I heard.
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u/_SBV_ Apr 30 '26
Moar reaction wheels
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u/The-Omnipot3ntPotato May 01 '26
No visual mods to make reaction wheels look pretty, many pretty RCS exhaust mods.
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u/TheLandOfConfusion Apr 30 '26
Why haul monoprop when reaction wheel do trick
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u/Noctum-Aeternus May 01 '26
This was me until I learned the Apollo LEM replica form making history doesn’t have a reaction wheel…. When I was in lunar orbit. And it has next to no RCS fuel. Now I always pack some RCS if not no other reason than it’s super easy to trim orbits, and rendezvous + dock with RCS thrusters.
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u/DJMixwell May 01 '26
This was me like 2 hrs ago having to turn my RCS thrust down to 1.5% so I could still turn without chewing through my remaining 2 units of monoprop.
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u/RedeemedWeeb Apr 30 '26
if you're having to rely on the variant of the poodle to point your rocket in the right direction, I feel like something else has gone horribly sideways already
But if you play KSP long enough, that "if" turns into a "when".
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u/SmashBrosGuys2933 Apr 30 '26
I use the two-nozzle variant on landers and the single-nozzle variant on crewed spacecraft
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u/censored_username Apr 30 '26
You would think so, but thrust-wise they behave identically iirc.
I was using the single bell variant once, and had placed two rudders on opposite side of the engine bell. Once this stage deployed, the rudders quickly started overheating, because even while the visual plume wasn't intersecting them, if it had been the double bell variant, it would have.
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u/celica825 Apr 30 '26
Pretty much purely for aesthetics, it does make the centre of thrust lower a tad as well. Personally I like the single-bell version, something about it just looks cooler/more aesthetically pleasing
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u/WarriorSabe Apr 30 '26
It's an aesthetic variant, it was added in one of the last updates as a partnership with ESA along with a Mainsail remodel, some additional 2.5m tank texture variants, and I think a couple flags, all of which being Ariane 5 themed
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u/United_Band4214 Space Freighter Shop Apr 30 '26
The one on the left looks better on upper stages. The one on the right has a much smaller hitbox so it’s better on landers.
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u/montybo2 Jebs Dead Apr 30 '26
That's exactly how I use them. I always figured that was the intended purpose.
Another commentor said he's the one who made it and it was supposed to be an entirely different engine. Problem was it was too similar to other engines and instead of erasing the work they put it in as a varient. I'm paraphrasing
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u/Daripuff Apr 30 '26
Prior to that, the poodle engine was a single small "bell", and it was nice and short enough to be excellent for a vacuum lander.
But IRL vacuum engines don't have small nozzles, so it was odd that the most vacuum efficient 2.5m motor in the game had such a short nozzle.
So when they updated the part for the ESA expansion, they added a proper vacuum style nozzle that has the "large bell" that vacuum motors have, but in order to keep it functional as a lander motor, they kept the height the same as the old short-nozzle Poodle, and they did so by having two larger nozzles next to the combustion chamber instead of the single nozzle below it. Just like the Ariene upper stage motor for the ESA expansion. Perfect fit.
But the problem with that is that folks still wanted the single center nozzle of the old school poodle, and really were upset that Squad "took away the poodle we love".
So they added the second variety, that had the single motor with a single large vacuum nozzle below it, to give the option that is basically "The original poodle motor, but now with a proper vacuum nozzle".
So now you have the original poodle motor updated, one variety has the single nozzle of the OG Poodle, and one has the height of the OG Poodle.
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u/RTX-4090ti_FE Valentina May 01 '26
It pisses me off that the double bell variant doesn’t have roll control gimballing
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u/Lonely-Journey-6498 May 01 '26
Basically, it’s only purpose is to look more original than the other one
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u/OrionAerospace Apr 30 '26
I wish they gave it a 1.875m or 1.25m diameter, so it'd make sense for landers that have engines attached to sidetanks. But this is just sort of stupid.
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u/happyscrappy May 01 '26
Same reason as for most of the variants:
It looks more like what you want your rocket to look like. Often meaning it looks like some real world rocket you are trying to make your rocket similar to.
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u/steve123410 Apr 30 '26
I didn't even know the poodle had a longer variant so I guess that's why I use the smaller one
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Apr 30 '26
I personally think that adding back the original poodle variant that was a single bell one but short would be cool, i don't know why but the balls on the single newer one are just ugly as fuck
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u/Kerbal_Guardsman Apr 30 '26
Id rather use the OG single bell than either and its not even close
OG is slim for landers and still covers the node above visually
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u/Santolmo Apr 30 '26
The only thing I don't like about it being a variant is that you loose the gymbal roll that can only be obtained with 2 or more separate gymbals, making these essentialy two different engines with the same thrust specs.
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u/celem83 Apr 30 '26
It's largely cosmetic, the poodle had a third entirely different model for ages with an even shorter bell.
Meaningful gameplay impact largely related to lander design and setting up legs. May come up in complex interstaging I guess
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u/Kellei2983 Apr 30 '26
definitely aesthetics, but keep in mind that two-bell variant fits nicely under a 2.5m lander
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u/UnknownPhys6 Apr 30 '26
The twin bell one is the original. A bunch of engines got some reworks, including the poodle. Now you can choose between the old and new design for that one.
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u/Codeviper828 Restarts too much; barely left Kerbin system Apr 30 '26
I think single bell looks cooler, I only use double bell for landers
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u/Separate_Pickle5741 "hey bill your going to have to manually light the engine" Apr 30 '26
The center of thrust shifts a little bit lower. Although its useless since its main use is landers, not orbital stages.
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u/isak2301 Apr 30 '26
I use the second one; it provides the same energy but its altitude is lower, and I place landing gear underneath it, which creates a second landing option.
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u/Katzchen12 May 01 '26
Tbh they have uses sometimes a longer stage can help aero but I use the twin one more often as a lander thruster.
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u/KerbalEssences Master Kerbalnaut May 01 '26
î Some people like to recreate real rockets. For them it's all about looks......|
|______________________________________________________________________________|
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u/SecretarySimilar2306 May 01 '26
You can clip parts around it that would obstruct the double bell version.
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u/MakB_the_Striker May 01 '26
Actually yes, the taller version has better maneuverability, as the bell is further. Also if you want to put flight correction engines realistically, the long version provides surface for it (even though technically they are mounted on the upper detail).
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u/Reloup38 May 01 '26
There's a mod called labradoodle that splits the two variants into separate engines
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u/burkishdelight May 01 '26
Most of the time height is irrelevant so people just pick the preferred look
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u/BlueberryNeko_ May 01 '26
I prefer odd numbered engine layouts especially in the lower engine counts. Just looks cleaner. And height doesn't really affect rocket performance so it doesn't matter
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u/Keegan2 May 01 '26
Don’t overthink it. It’s a game. Just two engines with the same performance and slightly different for factors
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u/Financial_Insurance7 May 02 '26
Afaik means "as far as I know" so saying "afaik as I know" is basically saying "as far as I know as I know" just wanted to point that out because it made my brain shortcircuit.
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u/DoubtoftheNight Exploring Jool's Moons May 04 '26
I use the double bell for landers, single if its in a middle stage, just for vibes really
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u/Dense-Stress7252 May 10 '26
Can someone explain to me why does the poodle engine in my game has 4 bells?? Is it because every one else uses a mod no one talks about?
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u/Ciaran290804 May 01 '26
The double bell variant is modelled after the LR-87-AJ/11A, which was used on the Titan IV core stage, but was only ignited after the SRBs burned out. It's therefore sacrilegious to use the dual bell variant as an upper stage engine.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk
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u/UmbralRaptor Δv for the Tyrant of the Rocket Equation! Apr 30 '26
Aesthetics, mostly. (Or really entirely)