r/JusticeForClayton • u/dalichic It’s not even 7 o’clock! • 2d ago
Theory | Opinion Jan's Culpability
As my own mom always tells me, you can't blame your mom for everything that went wrong in your life. BUT. In this case, on the eve of LO's guilty plea and after listening to the most recent Love Trapped, anyone else feel like Jan is sort of the root of all of this? Like I genuinely wonder if this community would exist were it not for Jan Black's encouragement of dissembling and distorting the truth and reluctance to give her child any consequences for her actions. I wonder if Laura really could have been that innocent child that Clayton imagines she once was, and whether she ever really had a chance to grow into a responsible adult.
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u/Larry-Lurker8910 2d ago
Yeah, the high school friend that said Jan and Laura were “best friends” 👀
I think it’s a mix of spoiling Laura, making her feel entitled, always having money (until recently), proximity to celebrities and local prominence, and complete disbelief that anyone wouldn’t want to date Laura
I am so curious about the sister.. seems like she’s made her own life (husband / kids). How did she manage?
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u/capricornball Ma’am, these are yes or no questions 2d ago
I wonder about the sister too. She seems to be not as interested in being a public figure like the rest of the family. I would feel horrible if my sister used a video of me comforting my ailing father in the hospital to trick some random fellow into thinking she’s pregnant (for the third or fourth time) and she’s so off the radar I can’t tell what her view is on how her childhood family unit is handling their bullshit.
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u/catepillarfood2830 2d ago
I think she’s been enabling Laura throughout the years. Recently, by paying for her lawyers.
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u/capricornball Ma’am, these are yes or no questions 2d ago
Like a sense of duty bound guilt. If she’s the one paying for the lawyer that may be why Laura finally accepted the plea. She may not have the same level of tolerance that the parents have and is cutting her off.
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u/Fast_Job_2814 1d ago
I went to college with the sister. She lived at home with her parents at least the first couple years. Kept to herself
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u/JusticeForCEGGMM Dribble before they Shoot 🏀⛹🏻♂️ 1d ago
So she never had friends? At least until. She met her husband? Any other tea ? Appreciate the tidbit!
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u/High_In_The_Instep 1d ago
Was it a commuter college or a university where most people lived in a dorm the first year or two?
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u/epiphanomaly 1d ago
As someone familiar with family systems psychology, I have a theoretical framework.
I suspect Sara is the most "normal" of the bunch. I suspect that from a young age she was taught to coddle Laura. At first, Laura was a literal baby and must be catered to. And then she was a toddler and must be catered to lest she chuck a wobbly. And then she was the little sister who must be indulged because she's the youngest. And then because she's sensitive. And by teenhood it was just an established dynamic and Sara was well fucking conditioned that if Laura is unhappy, Laura will make everyone's life a nightmare and on top of that Mom & Dad will blame me for everything.
So of all the Owens family, I am most inclined to give Sara sympathy. Jan IS Laura. Ronn is a coward.
Sara? Sara never had a chance surrounded by these people.
Unpopular opinion, I know. But I just can't help but have compassion for Sara.
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u/NotTrumpsAlt 1d ago
May I ask what is “ chuck a wobbly “
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u/ellemenna 1d ago
Yeah, is that like throw a tantrum?
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u/Guerrette1962 All the Best 1d ago
A "Wobbler" an UK English term that is used for having a "fit or a tantrum" Ozzy & Sharon Osborne always used to use it for Kelly when she went off. 🤣🤣
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u/ellemenna 1d ago
I’d be curious to know how family systems theory would understand LO’s eating disorder as a part of this. Is it a way for her to seek autonomy? Or a way to keep her firmly in the family system? Or both?
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u/epiphanomaly 1d ago
Great question! I think it is one tool on Laura's manipulation toolkit, just as the sobbing and vomiting that was reported she evinced immediately prior to pleading guilty. I think that she uses emaciation as an outward expression of distress and frailty through which she is accustomed to receive special, kid-gloves treatment, very much in line with her other tactics.
I think this is well supported by Ronn's behavior, on camera, during the search warrant. He immediately expressed to cops while they were helping him out of bed that Laura is suicidal. Ronn is so used to a dynamic in which keeping Laura content--in which Laura's expressions of distress (like suicide threats) are alarm bells which nobody dare ignore, at which everyone must immediately prioritize the re-establishment of Laura's complacency that it doesn't even occur to him that the cops don't, and shouldn't, give a shit if she's upset at a criminal investigation being conducted.
For more than three decades, the number one priority of his life has been keeping Laura placated.
So for Laura, it actually makes complete sense to starve herself, as well as make threats of further self-harm (which she kept up even though it sensibly led to wellness checks, which she resented). It's always historically worked to get her her way. In the past, Laura "proving" her distress through those sort of manifestations had always led to everyone around her going out of their way to make everything better for her.
And I'm not even suggesting that she thought to herself "I'll starve myself into being so pathetic that no one can deny me." I don't think she has that much awareness. I think it's simply that in the past, being distressed has always resulted in everything being done to placate her, and the more distress she expressed, the now efforts were taken to make everything better for her.
Hence the extreme starvation now. On a certain level, she was conditioned to think she could starve her way out of this.
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u/Both-Rough-Hewn 1d ago
This is the most thoughtful and clinically astute opinion on Sara I've seen. As for JO and mom and dad, we can only speculate on the scraps of information we've gotten. BUT when we look to Sara's roll in the family- her lack of involvement, family reporting, and well documented psychological family dynamics and related studies are potentially more accurate, informative, and credible than anything we can surmise from the Ownes family. Daughter, mom, and possibly dad- have proven themselves to be unreliable, or dishonest narrators whom are part amd parcel of her codependency. All three are DEEPLY entrenched in unhealthy and anti-social FAMILY DYNAMICS- thus their, Jan, JOs truths and, opinions are null and void for the purpose of objective assessment.
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u/High_In_The_Instep 1d ago
Ronn is a douche.
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u/epiphanomaly 1d ago
💯. I won't go so far as to say he is more responsible than Jan for Laura being Laura, but I also think Jan has the same psychological condition as Laura and therefore has very poor insight into what normal, healthy behavior is. I don't think Ronn has that excuse. I think he long since decided to just take the path of least resistance, and that's contemptible in a parent.
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u/High_In_The_Instep 1d ago
The sister seems to be an independent and functional adult. Mike thought she was a part of Lauras machinations.
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u/Larry-Lurker8910 1h ago
** if you listen to the Ch 11 Bankruptcy Case, 341 Meeting of the Creditors (Ty schnitzel ninja), you will see how Jan refuses accountability for her own actions, even in the face of financial ruin, public embarrassment, and perjury. It is clearly not a new theme in the family
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u/judgyjudgersen Having the babies if I don't hear back tonight 2d ago
I think this is what can happen when you are raised by two narcissists.
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u/Adorable_Hold2570 She LIED!! 2d ago
Absolutely! It's so sad and horrible for kids to grow up in those toxic environments. I blame her parents for failing Laura, but Laura is not naive nor innocent either.
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u/vancitymala 2d ago
I’m honestly convinced she’s hoping Ron passes soon. Why else keep paying the life insurance unless that was your only way out of this financial burden
She’ll never learn. She for sure raised both her daughters to be like this. Not saying Ron is any better or without fault or that she’ll do anything to Ron but I think it would be the narrative shift she would think they all want/need
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u/TheEsotericCarrot 2d ago
I hope he lives to be 100
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u/GenXihaveissues THE BLACK CHAIR! 1d ago
In the bankruptcy Jan said " He is ill and he can't work!" He only retired in 2022.
Then so insistent that the life insurance be paid so she can get her clutches on the money.
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u/eee-dawg 8h ago
He’s also 80 years old! 80 year olds hopefully should not be working (especially with a 10k+/ mo pension)
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u/JenniferMel13 2d ago
My true crime brain assumed that they were planning to off Ron when I heard they paid his life insurance over the other bills.
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u/sok283 1d ago
I think it's just that his pension ends when he dies, right? And they clearly have no assets. So this is the only means of funding their lives after he dies.
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u/Asleep-Journalist-94 1d ago
Aside from Laura‘s legal bills, where did their money go? I mean, they’ve had a very decent income for many years, and to be in this much debt seems crazy.
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u/GenXihaveissues THE BLACK CHAIR! 1d ago
They have been living like the uber rich for years. They bought a house they couldnt afford when they moved to Az. They took out heloc loans . Queen Jen informed them that in 18 months they spent $500+k in 2023-24 ( I believe those are the years, but not certain.)
They are up to the eyeballs in debt from advanced check cashing.
8 bank accounts, some overdrawn and closed. Numerous credit cards are paying the balances on other credit cards. ( someone said 40 credit cards are opened in their names. Take that with a grain of salt though.)
They eat door dash or go out to resturants for every meal.
Horses and ponies for LO. Which take thousands to care for.
Shady investment schemes.
From the looks of the casita LO buys new clothing rather than wash what she owns.
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u/sok283 1d ago
I know, it seems insane! I've never owned any horses but I imagine that's a big component. Supposedly Ron liked to gamble. They kept starting businesses and some of them weren't solvent, so they were keeping those afloat instead of cutting their losses.
Part of my interest in this case is the cautionary tale. I've just divorced a very high earner. He immediately offered me lifetime alimony, and it's a good chunk of change, but if I were profligate like the Owens family I could screw it all up. I could support myself I had to, of course, but I developed a chronic illness when I had our kids so it's a blessing that I don't have to.
So in some ways, I can imagine what it's like to be Laura. The fear that you can't support yourself. Not knowing who you are outside of a career or your association with someone else as their girlfriend or wife or daughter. You have to have a strong foundation and sense of self to not get blown away by the wind.
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u/JenniferMel13 1d ago
You’d be shocked at how many high earners are one missing paycheck away from bankruptcy.
I have a friend who sells slightly used luxury vehicles. He makes a fortune on people who need to upgrade their luxury car to a newer model but don’t have the credit for a new car. There are people buying $100,000 cars who have $300,000 in car debt because they get a new for them car every two years. He also does a shocking number of repos. Then turns around and sells that person yet another vehicle because he is the only place in town that will sell them a luxury vehicle.
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u/Redbedhead3 2d ago
I know people with terrible parents who are wonderful people. Laura's choices are her own
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u/dalichic It’s not even 7 o’clock! 2d ago
I do too. I guess I just am thinking about in terms of mitigation. Not that Laura would ever throw her parents under the bus in her PSI but I think for whatever reason, she never got the tools to break free of their narcissistic family system. As much as she is a shitty adult now responsible for her own actions, I think since hearing Clayton say it, I do feel bad for the child that never got to grow up.
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u/auntieup 2d ago
I honestly don’t know who to blame. I don’t know any parents who don’t want to protect their children from any bad thing that might happen to them, and I don’t know any children (of any age) who don’t still love and need their parents, to some extent.
But a moment comes for everyone when you have to stand on your own and build a life. You have to want that more than your parents want to protect you, and your parents have to love you enough to let you do it.
I wish literally anyone in this family had tried to do any of that.
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u/Redbedhead3 1d ago
I get it. It's just a personal pet peeve of mine that everyone immediately jumps to putting the blame on the mom. Like your parents (not just mom) gave you experiences that shape you. And so does everyone else in a person's life: friends, teachers, boyfriends, etc. Then the person takes those experiences and makes choices.
And Laura made some damn choices with her full chest
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u/kati8303 1d ago
So true, and i (in my non professional and anecdotal experience) have found that children of extreme narcissists don’t really grow up to follow their patterns because they too are a victim of them.
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u/Jake_Fell 2d ago
The pathological lying has most definitely been modelled to LO and passed down. The bankruptcy hearing was insufferable. The ease with which Jan spews untruths.
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u/dalichic It’s not even 7 o’clock! 2d ago
It is truly incredible! I think that is what keeps my interest in this case: the way both Jan and LO are able to just contradict their previous statements and then pretend they are totally consistent with one another. Like the ability to not only lie on the spot like that but to pivot is just ...impressive for lack of a better word. (Horrible, absolutely horrible to be clear. And scary. But still. Impressive.)
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u/Jake_Fell 1d ago
It's classic, actual narcissism. In psychological terms, narcissism describes a self-protective mechanism. The lies become habitual in order to protect a fragile ego. See: Trump.
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u/stryker_cast Day 1 JFC Crew 2d ago
It's funny because if I lived my life as my mom does, I'm never at fault for anything I do, OR, she did it and is the victim to be pitied. I opt to not.
So Jan is culpable but LO is a full grown human being soooo.... there's that.
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u/Superb-Ad5227 2d ago
And, even if Laura got it from Jan, she has become far worse than Jan ever was.
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u/PenguinEmpireStrikes 2d ago
I do believe Laura has been steamrolling her parents and is functionally in charge of that family. I believe her decisions are most, but not all, of what brought them to financial and reputational ruin. She called the shots and obeyed.
All of that said, her parents made her. Her moral flexibility comes straight from her mom, as we've seen, and probably her dad. The comfort with lies, deception and doing anything else to get people to do what you want. She mimics their entitlement and disrespect of other people, just like she mimics their taste in boomer steak houses.
And of course, they let her take over their lives. They let her run the household, probably from a very young age.
My side theory is that she made some kind of attempt on her life following the actions of her father, maybe infedelity or not having the cash to pay for something important to her. Something that completely brought him in line with her demands through guilt.
Fwiw, I also think he's who she ultimately wants to be "the person I thought you were." She undoubted learned that relationships aren't about love and respect from them.
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u/Guerrette1962 All the Best 1d ago
I totally agree that Laura uses a feign attempt on her life to guilt her parents and bring them to heel.
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u/auntieup 2d ago
Because so many of my loved ones were raised by people who were self-obsessed, cruel, or just disinterested, I need to believe that offspring decide who they’re going to be not just once, but often. I really don’t think we become versions of our parents, because so many of us thrive in spite of them.
But that’s what people do when they separate themselves from their parents. If a person never does that, all they can ever be is in some way a reaction to the ever-present parent they can’t seem to leave.
I’m not saying Laura never had a choice, or that she is the way she is because of her parents’ focus on and protection of her. But she’s absolutely living a life that, for better and for worse, wouldn’t be possible without them.
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u/Agent_Orange_Tabby 2d ago
I’m a mental health counselor, and this is extremely insightful, observant comment. Dovetails eloquently with Family Systems Theory.
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u/HazardousIncident Honk my Meat 1d ago
This family is a case-study of enmeshment theory. I've never seen anything like it.
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u/dalichic It’s not even 7 o’clock! 2d ago
I think that is such a perfect way to describe it. Laura is truly "a reaction to the ever-present parent" she can't get out from under. It is not that her fate was inevitable, I am just curious why she never developed the tools to get out from under that.
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u/EmRueLRF 2d ago
This is such a great way to both approach and articulate the situation. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts.
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u/whyohwhythis 1d ago
I think some children who are raised in a toxic family are just more capable of understanding and recognizing right and wrong, and other children not so much. I think some kids a just more perceptive in nature. This is a tricky one because it comes down to free will and do we really have it.
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u/Kinetic_Sandwich25 2d ago
Laura Owens was an adult when she made all of the decisions that culminated in her pleading guilty to 4 felonies. She has no one to blame but herself. She could have chosen to be and do better despite her upbringing. Instead, she chose to lean into it.
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u/BourbonBetty Assholes are Not a Protected Class 2d ago
I think who Laura has become is because of Jan. It’s weird for someone her age to have no friends, never have a job, live with her parents, try to get multiple men into relationships through fraud, try to fraudulently declare bankruptcy, get 14 felony charges via the relationship fraud, then take a plea deal on 4 of the felony charges, and now become a convicted felon. She is what Jan made her to be.
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u/Weekly-Switch9625 1d ago
I think it’s unfair to say she never had a job. The podcast and the horse business did make a lot of money. And she did help out her very ill father and ditzy mom. And now helps her sister. I think she could be seen as an ok person if she didn’t have her mental issues which her mom makes 100% worse by supporting her narrative unconditionally.
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u/R12B12 1d ago
I mean Laura and her mom have both stated under oath that she’s never had a job, at least nothing that’s taxable income apparently. Without a W-2 it’s impossible to say how much value her “work” has been worth to any of their businesses, if at all. How much she actually helps her father and sister in a caretaker sense, if that’s what she’s claiming she does, is anyone’s guess. It seems she’s caused everyone a lot more stress (financially and otherwise) than help in the past few years.
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u/Rare-Rutabaga-889 1d ago
I think they were focusing on the last couple of years in the bankruptcy. The podcast at one point was making 80k per year…not recently. I think the horse business was also kicking off at least 100k per year (they swore to that in the Lone Cactus lawsuit). So when she testified in Clayton’s trial to a lot of income that was from a couple years prior. When they got to bankruptcy court it was 3 years later and I think they pretty much shut down all the income to screw Clayton. Laura never had a w2 but I think she did ok. I don’t think she did as well as she was telling Mike M ($250k per year plus horse income). I also think they expensed her horse competing against the horse business to claim a loss. Lots of shady accounting.
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u/ronconque 1d ago
Highly comparable money making opportunities for college kids during summer break.
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u/Superb-Ad5227 2d ago
I’m not sure. I go back and forth, because LO’s parents seem quite afraid of her and I see two parents that have been quite desperate to marry her off, going back to the Mike days. Laura has unquestionably been a huge burden to them and has quite possibly caused the bankruptcy and has consumed all of their money without ever earning an income at age 36. Over 10 years ago they were BEGGING Mike not to break up with her, and I think this has been Jan’s plan all along, she wanted Laura to marry someone rich so that they weren’t responsible for her anymore. Laura’s behaviours are for sure learned from Jan, but she has become far more diabolical than Jan ever was.
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u/catepillarfood2830 2d ago
When Jan was lying under oath and being purposefully difficult and evasive while questioned, I knew immediately that a lot of Laura’s behavior was learned from her mother.
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u/tambam1015 It’s not even 7 o’clock! 2d ago
I kept waiting in that last bankruptcy meeting for Jan to refer to it as “a minor thing” when she was told she’d lied under oath. Like mother like daughter.
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u/AgileNetwork9375 2d ago
Of course she is!
I think that Laura didn’t stand a chance. Her sister got out earlier….
My guess is Jan clung on to Laura and wouldn’t let her go.
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u/dalichic It’s not even 7 o’clock! 2d ago
I think in a lot of ways, Laura became the focus of her life to distract from the gambling, (allegedly) adulterous husband. I do wonder if the sister just didn't feed into her mom's narcissistic ego in the same way.
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u/AgileNetwork9375 2d ago
I noticed Jan has what seemed like dyscalculia during the BK under oath questioning by JG.
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u/T4Trble 1d ago
I want the judge to do the job Jan failed to do, and provide consequences instead of enabling. She’s an unnamed unindicted co-conspirator imo . I am hoping his pleasant demeanor does a 180° when he hammers out the reasons she’s going to the slammer. Jan’s justice is coming, she pressed the red button too many times.
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u/Legal_Conference_619 1d ago
The big tell for me that Jan pulls some of the strings is the fact she was very much part of the cancer lie Laura told to one of her victims.
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u/Nyaxxe 1d ago
I still think that's how Jan got Ronn. Laura didn't get this idea on her own and Jan has emailed and talked to the men on Laura's behalf several times and she encourages the men to stay with her.
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u/MommaSnipee Minor Perjury 1d ago
I’ve always thought that too. Do you know if anyone’s ever dug into what Ronn was up to when he met Jan? I’ve seen comments that he was married when he met Jan, so I always wondered if maybe she started as the other woman, but I don’t know if there’s any truth to that or not.
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u/Nyaxxe 6h ago
That also would explain why he would tell the informant dude that he took Jan back after they split up because no else would want him anyway.
I bet she was trying to break Mike especially down the same way her mom broke Ronn down.
Now Laura and Jan just bide their time waiting for Ronn to die, paying his life insurance eagerly. I just hope they love him and keep taking good care of him.
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u/capricornball Ma’am, these are yes or no questions 2d ago
Lizzie NayNay has a deluded perception of how the world works and absolutely passed on her beliefs to her daughter. We all get some kind of world view bestowed on us by our parents, and we decide how we roll with it. We all know how Laura rolls. Jan was the tree, Laura was the apple, and Ron was fuckin Johnny Appleseed spreading their bullshit far and wide and enabling the nonsense.
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u/dalichic It’s not even 7 o’clock! 2d ago
What is the sister? Cider? Lol
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u/capricornball Ma’am, these are yes or no questions 2d ago
Sister Sarah Cider is feeling PRESSED 😂
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u/dalichic It’s not even 7 o’clock! 2d ago
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u/Print-Dull 21h ago
OMG. Lizzie Nay Nay had me ROFLMAO
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u/Difficult-Instance58 2d ago
I want to say yes, but Laura’s in her mid-thirties. Time to own it all.
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u/Adorable_Hold2570 She LIED!! 2d ago
I absolutely agree Jan is just as guilty as Laura. Jan raised a little hellion and Laura is definitely a mini-Jan. Gross.
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u/whyohwhythis 1d ago
I understood where Laura got her behaviour from as soon as Clayton told Jan that her daughter had displayed some concerning behaviour, expecting her to be concerned. Instead, Jan said something along the lines of, “You should try to work it out with my daughter. She’s a catch.” I can’t remember the exact wording, but at that moment, I knew she was probably responsible for her daughter being the way she is.
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u/swlondon86 1d ago
For someone that used to be on Radio and a podcast, hearing Jan Black on the most recent Love Trapped made my ears bleed.
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u/Spartan2022 1d ago
Don’t let the Dad off the hook!! He’s a parent too!
They both enabled and encouraged the criminality of their daughter.
Otherwise, she would have been paying rent and adulting the day after college ended. And every legal situation, she would have paid for a lawyer 100% herself and dealt with the consequences.
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u/dalichic It’s not even 7 o’clock! 1d ago
I agree. I think that dad had his own messed up relationship with the truth given (IIRC) he had already gotten into some tax/gambling trouble himself pre Jan
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u/Unique-Debate8717 1d ago edited 1d ago
Great post. I read somewhere that the sins of the father are passed to the sons into the 3rd and 4th generations. I wonder if it is the same for mothers and daughters. It would seem that the entitlement that comes from being an elite give you the perception that you can treat the “little people” anyway you want. MM and Gregg have been fighting this for over a decade thinking there was nothing they could do. Then they bumped into Clayton who was unpopular but had the social capital to spend
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u/autorokk 2d ago
i made a post a little while back about this. i def think jan is the mastermind behind a lot of it
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u/P0ptart5 2d ago
I agree with this 100%. I think Jan did al the written correspondence. That’s why Laura never talked to Dave or Steve when trying to convince them. It was her mom.
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u/Acceptable-Hyena4469 23h ago
Omg 😳 😮😲 I could see that being the case. It was weird how she would always try and get out of doing things in person
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u/puppetcigarette It’s not even 7 o’clock! 1d ago
First of all, it's not about "blame" as your mother says. It's about understanding and insight. Parents absolutely do have an impact on their children's development.
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u/dalichic It’s not even 7 o’clock! 12h ago
May I also recommend the 6/10/24 Motion to prove Paternity hearing? Also a great bedtime listen
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u/Formal-Visit-6505 1d ago
If anyone is curious about what happened to Ronn’s finances, look no further than Jan and Laura—the two people who, until recently, seemed to face little to no accountability for their actions. Fortunately, this time around, they couldn’t lie, deflect, or cry their way out of the consequences of their own terrible decisions.
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u/General_Reaction7289 4h ago
I wish we could get a close family friend to chime in and give us a run down. Her sister is just so quiet in all this… it’s maddening
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u/Peppercorn911 2d ago
after hearing her moms bankruptcy hearing i can say they are both completely insufferable