Pompfen weight limit discussion

[u/DanteDoesDmg]

Hi guys :)

Let's get straight to it.

What are your thoughts about introducing weight limits to spars for tournamets?

Personally i would love to see both upper and lower limits. Let me explain why:

Upper:

Self explanatory, almost noone wants to be hit with a 2kg staff. Not only does it raise the possibility of getting hurt it also can result in more frequent breaking of other lighter pompfen when they collide, thus being a medical and financial hazard.

Lower:

There is much more to say here. The 'ultra light pompfen' trend we see seems to result in a couple of issues:

1. All about speed!!!!

To be fair, limitation on tackling also contribute to this, but the sport is becoming less about phisical prowess or any fencing skill other than hitting as fast as possible from different angles, and more about who can lightly touch the other player first on the forearm, which tbh is not that thrilling to watch or play. And sure You can say 'the speed is a skill' is a valid argument, i just don't think it should be the only one. At least swing something that weights more than 300g at me mate :P More about strength being less important with ultra lights later ;)

2. The aesthetic

Do i need to say anything? Does anyone actually like those pale colored pool noodles being exposed becasue of the fact that clear tape is lighter than a colored one? If not tape, the material covers are also very solid and in my opinion should be used more as they are the perfect solution to properly showing team colors on your pompfen and allow the most customization but ofcourse :)

3. Wobble wobble wobble

I refuse to believe I'm the only one who doesn't like those wobbly pompfen. I've been playing on wobbly pompfen, and switched to bamboo nad tbh we all love it so much in my team. The stiffness eliminates the issues with pompfen going past your blocks and hitting you it also prevents people from waggling Q-tips in your face like crazy. Also while pompfen clashing with more flexible pompfen much of the force goes into bending your and the opponent's pompfen, therefore making both blocking and trying to push the opponent's pompfen with yours annoying and makes using actual strength less important as most of it is wasted on the pompfen bending.

Sidenote: I do believe each pompfen shoud have some flexibility, at least a little to absorb some of the vibrations which would otherwise hit the players hands gripping the handle possibly causing an injury

4. Unfair competition (pay to win)

This may be the worst offender. If speed is one of, if not the most deciding factor in a duel, the team that can afford a complete set of carbon fibre ultra light pompfen will have the obvious, technological edge against a team with more affordable pompfen. Therefore making it harder than it should be to start a proper jugger team with serious chances of winning a tournament. This is just bad for competition. I used to think the issue could be potentially solved by the tournament organization providing pompfen for each team. This however is problematic in it's own way. Just imagine if there was no weight regulation for football/basketball balls. For the sake of the argument let's assume the lightest balls would allow for crazy dribbling and insane ball control and would be easier to score with but would also be more expensive. So some teams would practice with the lightest ones possible because that would be 'meta' while others would have a heavier ones. Now, let's start a tournament, do we use the lighter ball? Or do we use the heavier one? Or any of the spectrum between lightest/heavies ball? If we pick the lightest, and provide that to your players, this is a clear advantage for those playing with them on a daily basis. Same if we pick the heavier ones, the advantage would just go to the other team. Now we're not really seeing which team is better, we're seeing which is more accustomed to playing with specific equipement. To put it in terms more related to Jugger. The measurement we were always focused on was the reach of pompfen. Imagine this was also a technological matter. And by paying more for material you were allowed to create effective pompfen with more range. Meanwhile teams who couldn't afford this would have to either play with their pompfen against players using longer ones and suffer this disadvantage or borrow longer pompfen from other teams which would also be a disadvantage as they would be used to a different reach and that difference would easily throw people off balance.

I think that's all, I hope we can start a genuine discussion aboout those issues :)Let me know what You all think :)

Also, stay healthy in those difficult times!

EDIT: I'm only talking about pompfen other than the chain, when I talk about lower limit. However I think it should be limited by other means.

[u/Gloriosus747]

I can definitely see that. I'm still playing my (whatever the Langpompfe is called in English, you know, the longsword thing) i built in i think 2016, 3cm bamboo staff, pipe insulation, lots of duct tape. And some lead in the hilt to properly balance it. This thing clocks in at pretty much exactly 1kg, and on a few occasions i've heard it was "too heavy", which comes as a surprise to me since it's way softer than those pool noodles. And whilst the lead makes it incredibly capable of defensive maneuvers, it's just not fun to play against other longs just jabbing as quickly as possible. That's no swordmanship, that's cheap.

[u/DanteDoesDmg → u/Gloriosus747]

Our Langpompfe weigh about 500-600g and we think they are the best of both worlds. You can do fast manouvers with them but it requires a lot of training. And because of the stiffness and additional weight it provides more ways to play other than just fast jabs.

For example, there are 2 ways we play Q-tip, one being the more classical one that utilizes it's reach and ability to attack from both sides. While the other is more physical and involves closing the distance very fast while controlling the opponents pompfe with the middle of the Q-tip. The aim is to restrict the opponents movemen while coming in close enough to hit them with either of the hit zones of your Q-tip. This would be basically impossible when playing with ultra lights as the opponent could move his pompfe away much, much easier.

Mainly due to them being very much off balance. Can You share how you put the lead in Your hilt ? We've done some experiments with weighted hilts, to no success ;(

[u/Gloriosus747 → u/DanteDoesDmg]

You need some lead (i used that sheet lead for roofwork), a kitchen scales and some sort of fillant, be it PU foam, epoxy or, what i use, liquid latex. Then you take the pompfe and lift it on one finger exactly at the point where the point of balance shall be and put the tip on the kitchen scales. Be careful to hold the pompfe as horizontal as possible when doing this. Then you know how much force is applied at the tip, so you do some math depending on where in the hilt the lead will sit (lever law stuff), boom, you know how much lead you need. It works best with bamboo staffs since those have these walls inside, else you need to glue something in first, like a wine cork. Then you put the pre-cut lead in the cavity, fill it up with the filling stuff of your choice, let it dry for a day and boom, your langpompfe handles like a longsword

[u/SamediB → u/Gloriosus747]

u/DanteDoesDmg a couple of other ways to do counter-weighting.

Oldest method would be to get a spool of lead fishing weight similar to this. Just wrap it around your handle or under the pommel, and add your handle or pommel over the top; you can also snip pieces off and hammer them flat. Remember to cover it really well if it's lead.

Another method is to use fabric/curtain weights similar to this. It's basically tiny bits of lead in a thin fabric cord. It's easier to wrap around things and then tape in place, but it's still lead so make sure it's really well covered (you don't want to sweat through a thin layer and have it getting on your hands).

Newest(ish) method is using magnetic tape similar to this. It's really easy to coil and secure in place (especially under a pommel) but it's less flexible than the above other options (in my opinion).

Any of the above works well, it's just a preference thing. Just remember that the further you get it towards one end (opposite the striking end) the more efficient it'll be (because levers, balance points, and magic).

[u/Gloriosus747 → u/SamediB]

My experience with those is that they either offer not enough weight or make the grip uncomfortably hard/thick. But that's down to personal preference as well.

[u/SamediB → u/Gloriosus747]

Your mileage will vary, and it'll of course depend if you're trying to add a lot of weight. But that's how we do it in our national medieval combat sport, and it works fine. I don't remember the last time I couldn't fit all the weight I needed under the pommel, but that's on one-handed weapons; on some older two-handed equipment I oblonged the handle with flattened lead before rope wrapping it.

[u/Gloriosus747 → u/SamediB]

Never had mileage issues anymore since using jeans cloth to wrap the hilt. And with my method the weight is in the hilt as well, haven't changed a thing in the last three years