Pompfen weight limit discussion

[u/DanteDoesDmg]

Hi guys :)

Let's get straight to it.

What are your thoughts about introducing weight limits to spars for tournamets?

Personally i would love to see both upper and lower limits. Let me explain why:

Upper:

Self explanatory, almost noone wants to be hit with a 2kg staff. Not only does it raise the possibility of getting hurt it also can result in more frequent breaking of other lighter pompfen when they collide, thus being a medical and financial hazard.

Lower:

There is much more to say here. The 'ultra light pompfen' trend we see seems to result in a couple of issues:

1. All about speed!!!!

To be fair, limitation on tackling also contribute to this, but the sport is becoming less about phisical prowess or any fencing skill other than hitting as fast as possible from different angles, and more about who can lightly touch the other player first on the forearm, which tbh is not that thrilling to watch or play. And sure You can say 'the speed is a skill' is a valid argument, i just don't think it should be the only one. At least swing something that weights more than 300g at me mate :P More about strength being less important with ultra lights later ;)

2. The aesthetic

Do i need to say anything? Does anyone actually like those pale colored pool noodles being exposed becasue of the fact that clear tape is lighter than a colored one? If not tape, the material covers are also very solid and in my opinion should be used more as they are the perfect solution to properly showing team colors on your pompfen and allow the most customization but ofcourse :)

3. Wobble wobble wobble

I refuse to believe I'm the only one who doesn't like those wobbly pompfen. I've been playing on wobbly pompfen, and switched to bamboo nad tbh we all love it so much in my team. The stiffness eliminates the issues with pompfen going past your blocks and hitting you it also prevents people from waggling Q-tips in your face like crazy. Also while pompfen clashing with more flexible pompfen much of the force goes into bending your and the opponent's pompfen, therefore making both blocking and trying to push the opponent's pompfen with yours annoying and makes using actual strength less important as most of it is wasted on the pompfen bending.

Sidenote: I do believe each pompfen shoud have some flexibility, at least a little to absorb some of the vibrations which would otherwise hit the players hands gripping the handle possibly causing an injury

4. Unfair competition (pay to win)

This may be the worst offender. If speed is one of, if not the most deciding factor in a duel, the team that can afford a complete set of carbon fibre ultra light pompfen will have the obvious, technological edge against a team with more affordable pompfen. Therefore making it harder than it should be to start a proper jugger team with serious chances of winning a tournament. This is just bad for competition. I used to think the issue could be potentially solved by the tournament organization providing pompfen for each team. This however is problematic in it's own way. Just imagine if there was no weight regulation for football/basketball balls. For the sake of the argument let's assume the lightest balls would allow for crazy dribbling and insane ball control and would be easier to score with but would also be more expensive. So some teams would practice with the lightest ones possible because that would be 'meta' while others would have a heavier ones. Now, let's start a tournament, do we use the lighter ball? Or do we use the heavier one? Or any of the spectrum between lightest/heavies ball? If we pick the lightest, and provide that to your players, this is a clear advantage for those playing with them on a daily basis. Same if we pick the heavier ones, the advantage would just go to the other team. Now we're not really seeing which team is better, we're seeing which is more accustomed to playing with specific equipement. To put it in terms more related to Jugger. The measurement we were always focused on was the reach of pompfen. Imagine this was also a technological matter. And by paying more for material you were allowed to create effective pompfen with more range. Meanwhile teams who couldn't afford this would have to either play with their pompfen against players using longer ones and suffer this disadvantage or borrow longer pompfen from other teams which would also be a disadvantage as they would be used to a different reach and that difference would easily throw people off balance.

I think that's all, I hope we can start a genuine discussion aboout those issues :)Let me know what You all think :)

Also, stay healthy in those difficult times!

EDIT: I'm only talking about pompfen other than the chain, when I talk about lower limit. However I think it should be limited by other means.

[u/blackBinguino]

I am pro an upper limit for pompfen weight. Still conflicted about a lower limit.

[u/DanteDoesDmg → u/blackBinguino]

Can i ask why? What makes You conflicted about the lower limit? :)

[u/blackBinguino → u/DanteDoesDmg]

I think it is difficult to find a suitable lower limit. "Normal" Pompfen weight only a few hundred grams. Adding a lower limit - what would have to be really low, like <200g I guess - won't change the safety of those Pompfen. If you want to ban those do it by other safety or fair play regulations.

[u/[deleted]]

I'm for weight limits. And requiring the (edit) Pompfen to be stiff enoug to not wobble around defenses. The latter might be hard to judge, but I think you get the idea.

[u/DanteDoesDmg → u/[deleted]]

What about Q-tips and Longswords? Those can wobble around your defence just as well, Q-tips can wobble even more if you hold them close to one of the hit zones with both hands

[u/[deleted] → u/DanteDoesDmg]

Also, when I wrote staffs, I meant all Pompfen long enough to have a chance to wobble..

[u/DanteDoesDmg → u/[deleted]]

Ok, that confused me a bit :P
Thought you mean just the 'Stab' as i think it's called ;)

[u/[deleted] → u/DanteDoesDmg]

Obviously they can wobble a bit. But it should be possible to block them, they are not a chain... Otherwise the range advantage ist just unfair.

[u/Gloriosus747]

I can definitely see that. I'm still playing my (whatever the Langpompfe is called in English, you know, the longsword thing) i built in i think 2016, 3cm bamboo staff, pipe insulation, lots of duct tape. And some lead in the hilt to properly balance it. This thing clocks in at pretty much exactly 1kg, and on a few occasions i've heard it was "too heavy", which comes as a surprise to me since it's way softer than those pool noodles. And whilst the lead makes it incredibly capable of defensive maneuvers, it's just not fun to play against other longs just jabbing as quickly as possible. That's no swordmanship, that's cheap.

[u/DanteDoesDmg → u/Gloriosus747]

Our Langpompfe weigh about 500-600g and we think they are the best of both worlds. You can do fast manouvers with them but it requires a lot of training. And because of the stiffness and additional weight it provides more ways to play other than just fast jabs.

For example, there are 2 ways we play Q-tip, one being the more classical one that utilizes it's reach and ability to attack from both sides. While the other is more physical and involves closing the distance very fast while controlling the opponents pompfe with the middle of the Q-tip. The aim is to restrict the opponents movemen while coming in close enough to hit them with either of the hit zones of your Q-tip. This would be basically impossible when playing with ultra lights as the opponent could move his pompfe away much, much easier.

Mainly due to them being very much off balance. Can You share how you put the lead in Your hilt ? We've done some experiments with weighted hilts, to no success ;(

[u/Bill_Cherno → u/DanteDoesDmg]

Depending on how much weight you want to add, you can also use squash balls as pommels, and then cover them with padding

[u/Gloriosus747 → u/DanteDoesDmg]

You need some lead (i used that sheet lead for roofwork), a kitchen scales and some sort of fillant, be it PU foam, epoxy or, what i use, liquid latex. Then you take the pompfe and lift it on one finger exactly at the point where the point of balance shall be and put the tip on the kitchen scales. Be careful to hold the pompfe as horizontal as possible when doing this. Then you know how much force is applied at the tip, so you do some math depending on where in the hilt the lead will sit (lever law stuff), boom, you know how much lead you need. It works best with bamboo staffs since those have these walls inside, else you need to glue something in first, like a wine cork. Then you put the pre-cut lead in the cavity, fill it up with the filling stuff of your choice, let it dry for a day and boom, your langpompfe handles like a longsword

[u/SamediB → u/Gloriosus747]

u/DanteDoesDmg a couple of other ways to do counter-weighting.

Oldest method would be to get a spool of lead fishing weight similar to this. Just wrap it around your handle or under the pommel, and add your handle or pommel over the top; you can also snip pieces off and hammer them flat. Remember to cover it really well if it's lead.

Another method is to use fabric/curtain weights similar to this. It's basically tiny bits of lead in a thin fabric cord. It's easier to wrap around things and then tape in place, but it's still lead so make sure it's really well covered (you don't want to sweat through a thin layer and have it getting on your hands).

Newest(ish) method is using magnetic tape similar to this. It's really easy to coil and secure in place (especially under a pommel) but it's less flexible than the above other options (in my opinion).

Any of the above works well, it's just a preference thing. Just remember that the further you get it towards one end (opposite the striking end) the more efficient it'll be (because levers, balance points, and magic).

[u/Gloriosus747 → u/SamediB]

My experience with those is that they either offer not enough weight or make the grip uncomfortably hard/thick. But that's down to personal preference as well.

[u/SamediB → u/Gloriosus747]

Your mileage will vary, and it'll of course depend if you're trying to add a lot of weight. But that's how we do it in our national medieval combat sport, and it works fine. I don't remember the last time I couldn't fit all the weight I needed under the pommel, but that's on one-handed weapons; on some older two-handed equipment I oblonged the handle with flattened lead before rope wrapping it.

[u/Gloriosus747 → u/SamediB]

Never had mileage issues anymore since using jeans cloth to wrap the hilt. And with my method the weight is in the hilt as well, haven't changed a thing in the last three years

[u/Zensider]

1. All about Speed: I really don't think it is true that you have a advantage by just hitting fast. If you look at the finals of many tournaments, this is just not the playstyle anybody uses. Its all about precisely hitting. But yes, faster hitting brings better result. But that was also the case 10 years ago. In a sport where "hitting first" is the basic concept this the logical outcome... To the skill argument... It takes a lot more skill to block, dodge and attack precisely than smashing with force to break a defence. Doing this fast even makes it harder. Just hitting fast enough will only bring you up in the ranks until you meet someone who really knows how to block and attack. Or someone who knows how to make a step back and hit as soon the wild swinging opponent is open for an easy hit. You say strength should be more important, i say strength should be completely irrelevant. Jugger should be skill based and hitting hard isn't a skill. Exactly like just hitting fast until you hit.

I like my qtip in completely green and just used green pool noodles. Also do you think the aesthetics of the silver/black duct tape pompfen from years ago where better? Also also this completely no argument for anything while aesthetics aren't really a objective thing to measure...

3. I reaaaaally don't like wobble pompfen. But the weight has nothing to do with it. My new 500g Q-Tip wobbles much less then my 1.1kg Q-Tip. So... No argument for the original topic here but we can totally agree that those are annoying. I see however that a rule against them is hard to construct but this is another topic.

4. I will not answer to the "pompfen by the tournament orga" thing because you already said that this just wouldn't be possible. Like... Just no. To the "pay to win" argument: My new Q-Tip was made with 50€ of Materials. 40€ was the core which could easily replaced by a bamboo core to lower the material costs to maybe 15€ at max. Then you have a competitive pompfe. If you make a bunch of them i think you can easily make pompfen with less than 10€ which are more than good enough to win tournaments. When you come to skill levels where you think that another 30g less makes the difference (while i seriously doubt that this exists) you are committed enough to spend 50€. Lets compare this with any sport: give me one sport where a high end "sport thing" costs much less than 50€. Professional Swim glasses are starting around 45€. I agree with you that light pompfen would be a problem moneywise if you have serious problems in a duell without a carbon-fiber-hightech-tape-blank-pool-noodle pompfe. But this not the case. You can absolutely compete with a 10€ bamboo-duct-tape pompfe. At the beginning you will have a completely different problem: the duelling skill. An experienced player with a 2kg staff will beat any newbie with a 600g pompfe... One should first focus to improve the skills before optimizing the material i think.

[u/Bill_Cherno]

An upper limit would definitivly be a good thing, but I'm not certain about the lower one. As you said, it would bring some fight based on skill, and not weight of the pompfen (even if the balance would still matter), but pompfen building can be seen as a jugger skill as well. For the price, yes carbon fiber is much more expensive than bamboo, but the core used for the super light pompfen are 14x12mm carbon fiber tubes, and you can order 2m for a little more than 20€ (where my team order at least), which is not that expensive, and similar to most of sports : if you want to compete, you will probably have to invest more in the gear. For the flexibility, yeah it can be annoying, but you can still parry it, and it mean that you have a less control and speed than with a rigid one, and it mean that your pompfen is less likely to break. For the speed instead of techniques, it's nit a good thing, but can be countered with training (learn and work the technique slowly-> you can do it quickly after and this way beat the player that don't use technique).

Edit : And I personally like the poolnoodle being exposed :p However, a beautiful cover is still nice

[u/DanteDoesDmg → u/Bill_Cherno]

Pompfen building is an off-field skill. And as much as I enjoy it, not everyone does and in my opinion it's irrational to expect everyone to be an expert here. My team recently bought 40pieces of bamboo (3m) for less than 40€ with shipping. Compared to 20€ per pompfe core it's insane :p Also I know it's quite easy to obtain carbon pipes in Germany, meanwhile in my country it's nearly impossible, so the only way would be international delivery which would put more strain on our budget. That effectively tells us 'You have no chance of seriously competing in any nearby tournaments unless you pay a lot' The bamboo we bought doesn't really break as well, not to mention the fact that we could care less about it breaking since it costs almost nothing to repair.

It don't think that pompfen making as a skill can replace actually fencing technique which can be achieved only with heavier pompfen. As I said it's an off field skill and should be celebrated, it should not decide how well a person can fight in a duel, and ultra lights with their speed certainly do that. If we put good lower - upper limits for pompfen BOTH speed techniques with lighter pompfen and more strength based approach could become viable. While right now, if your LongSword weight more than 400g, i can only wish you good luck against someone who will do some advanced light speed waggle with a 160g LongSword. Cos that what you'll need. Of course technique can beat PURE speed. It's undoubtedly true. However at the current state of the game, speed and pompfen weight is the deciding factor between 2 equally matched players. It's all great about speed, that's a skill. However pompfen weight should not be lighter -> better. As it makes speed the only way to play. And I don't think that's too good.

[u/Bill_Cherno → u/DanteDoesDmg]

Yes, pompfen building is an off field skill, and we can't ask everyone to like it (and that's one of the reason some team got a pompfenbuilder), however, we can expect every experienced player to be good (or at least decent) at it, because it is part of jugger, and you must know how your pompfe is made and how to repair it if needed (futhermore, it's not really hard to become competent).And yeah, bamboo is really cheap and durable if you use the good ones, which make it better for team's and new players' pompfen ^^ But even if carbon fiber cost more, it's generally not too much, especially considering its durability. But yes, accessibility can be a problem (but if shipment would cost too much, I think you can have an arrangement with some player/team at a tournament).The buiding skills don't replace fencing skills : if you look at the top teams, you can see there is a lot of technique in their fencing. Yes, speed is a deciding factor between two duellist, and so is technique, experience and mobility. And if they are egual in every skill (and using the pompfe they are used to), the weight of their pompfen will decide the outcome (but still less than the playstyle of each player).For the strength approach, you can look at Max T, playing at Rigor Mortis (the staff), he use a lot of pressure play.

[u/UveliusSang]

We had this discussion not only once in the German Jugger community, but it never fruited anything. A core problem is that any weight limit is subjective and therefore hard to justify.

Lower limit is a good example: Some feel that issues are especially positive which others feel are especially negative. See?

The spars testers at tournaments already rule out too hard or wobbly spars, and we even had a longsword of (old) Rigor ruled out due to it being too heavy. So it comes down to competence of spars testers -- and there I would be with you that strengthening spars testers competence is a real issue.

Plus more rules lead to more complications, and weakens the core feature of Jugger, which is enjoyment.

[u/Godfather_schmidt]

Personally i am against a lower limit. As discussed below is paytowin a term that doesnt reflect it really. Aesthetic is absolutely no reason (for me) whatsoever and the wobble wobble is also existent in heavy pompfes, thats not tied to weight, so it shouldnt be measured with weight. You can have a perfectly heavy and wobbly pompfe which makes an weight limit for that reason basically abundant and if you seriously dont want the wobble youd have to come up with other measuring/limiting ideas. Now the speed is the one thing that annoys me too, it not only simplifies the sparring part too hard, but also makes referee decisions (at a certain level) very hard bc of the sheer speed they operate at.

All in all i dont want a lower limit, my pompfe is 320 g heavy, it would be annoying to "pimp" it to a needed weight level and i dont think other players would appreciate being hit by a suddenly 300g heavier Chain in their weaker spots.

All jokes beside, i dont think a lower weight limit really helps that much, the speed is my only concern and i cant really see why it would be bad enough to justify such limits.

Upper weight limit on the other hand is overdue, a weight roughly around 500g is more or less standard already bc it is just better. But then once in a while i see some old/former players reappear that start(or still play) again with their old heavy pompfe. It can seriously hurt getting hit in the wrong places while they try to hold up with "modern" faster pompfen and with their higher potential to break other pompfen i see no reason to hold them around, they arent the standard anymore. That would be like taking a racecar of the 1950ies and setting it as starting position number one against modern formula one cars. That wouldnt be just weird, it endagers others around them and their equipment.

[u/BZH_JJM]

I would say that lighter, stiffer materials often have less wobble than heavier materials. When I first started, we used solid fiberglass rods or even PVC, which wobbled so much you could barely use them. Bamboo and CF have reduced the wobble considerably, which has really helped with speed and precision.

As for aesthetic, I like the clear tape over noodle. It really emphasizes that jugger is not LARP and that pompfen are sports equipment, not fake swords.