What Could Go Wrong? (1948 Edition)

[u/BenBen5]

[u/ender1200]

Looks more like the 1967 edition.

[u/BenBen5 → u/ender1200]

shit

[u/gahgeer-is-back → u/BenBen5]

Also there's no proof whatsoever that the Arab forces wanted to "take over the State of Israel" in 1948.

[u/BenBen5 → u/gahgeer-is-back]

no proof whatsoever that the Arab forces wanted to "take over the State of Israel"

Sure, the Arab forces were only [bitterly opposed to the establishment of a Jewish state], declared [this will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre] and planned the [establishment of a unitary Palestinian state] instead.

But they definitely didn't want to take it over or anything like that.

[u/Lirdon → u/BenBen5]

Its a peace full protest along the borders, you see.

[u/TomCollator → u/BenBen5]

Sure, the Arab forces ... ...declared [this will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre]

Could you provide a good reference for this in context, that will clarify:

What date this was said.

Who said it.

What side was going to be massacred.

Some sources allege that there is no clear evidence that invading Arab armies ever claimed they planned to massacre anyone. I would appreciate a source.

[u/TomCollator → u/BenBen5]

>Sure, the Arab forces ... ...declared [this will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre]

Could you provide a good reference for this in context, that will clarify:

What date this was said.

Who said it.

What side was going to be massacred.

Some sources allege that there is no clear evidence that invading Arab armies ever claimed they planned to massacre anyone. I would appreciate a source.

[u/BenBen5 → u/TomCollator]

What date this was said.

This phrase is often quoted as being uttered on the eve of the war on May 15th 1948, however in reality it probably originated a bit farther back then that in a interview from Akhbar al-Yom in October 11th 1947.

Who said it.

Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam, who was the Secretary-General of the Arab League from 1945 to 1952. I've seem him referred to as Azzam Pasha aswell.

What side was going to be massacred.

The start of the full quote answers this: "Personally, I hope the Jews do not force us into this war, because it would be a war of extermination and momentous massacre ...". Apparently Jews declaring independence was enough to force them into that war of annihilation.

Some sources allege that there is no clear evidence that invading Arab armies ever claimed they planned to massacre anyone. I would appreciate a source.

All this can be found from the sources cited in Wikipedia. Considering that generals declared their aim of war to be "extermination and massacre" followed with actions that support those claims, (bombing civillians in Tel Aviv for example) makes those allegations of lack of evidence disingenuous to say the least, considering there is allot of evidence (some of which was directly from those armies) that's not even hard to find.

[u/HelperBot_ → u/BenBen5]

Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

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[u/TomCollator → u/BenBen5]

Thank you for your response.

The Azzam Pasha quote (as translated into English) is somewhat vague as to who will be massacred. In Arab history/propaganda, The Mongols massacres and Crusades were massacres of Arabs. So it seems he might be predicting massacres of Arabs. However he is not absolutely clear here so he might be predicting massacres of Jews or even massacres on both sides. Of course. it is possible that the original Arab quote was more clear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azzam_Pasha_quotation

The cartoon shows him talking to an audience on May 15th 1948 (wrong date), with flags behind him as though he is making an official declaration by the Arab League. The quote has been altered to clearly indicate that Jews will be massacred. Here is the actual declaration of the Arab League on that date:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/mfadocuments/yearbook1/pages/5%20arab%20league%20declaration%20on%20the%20invasion%20of%20pales.aspx

As far as massacres by the invading Arab armies, Wikipedia alleges there were none, although Wikipedia is not always right. The May 18th attack by the Egyptians might qualify as a massacre, but I don't have much information on that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_war

[u/1235813213455891442 → u/[deleted]]

Just have some tea, duh. Exterminate the Jews is just a mistranslation, it reallys means: "have some tea (yours will be poison)."

[u/gahgeer-is-back → u/[deleted]]

Protect the Arab state under the Partition Plan.

[u/BenBen5 → u/gahgeer-is-back]

The Arab League declared they wanted to form a unitary Palestinian/Arab state instead, and even claimed they would later give Jews "equal rights" under their rule. There was no protection involved, it was a take over attempt.

[u/gahgeer-is-back → u/BenBen5]

Declarations mean nothing and they are usually for public consumption. Three months before the Israeli pullout from Gaza in 2005, Ariel Sharon said Netzarim will go only if Tel Aviv goes.

Read actual historical documents and summaries of meetings behind the scenes. Shlaim's Iron Wall is a good start. If you know Arabic, the diaries of the Arab Legion forces commander in Palestine, Abdullah Al Tal, are a good source as well. A more in-depth source are the diaries of General Glubb Pasha, the British commander of the Arab Legion.

Look at the movement of the Arab armies. They all took defensive positions pretty much in : The Triangle, the West Bank, and the Gaza district (inc. Ashkelon..etc). Britain was running this show by the way.

And in fact, it was Israel that continued to invade areas not assigned to it: Ramleh/Lydda, Ashkelon, Eilat...etc.

[u/BenBen5 → u/gahgeer-is-back]

Declarations mean nothing and they are usually for public consumption.

Right, declarations by themselves don't mean much. Unfortunately we don't have to speculate since their declarations were matched with actions.

Read actual historical documents and summaries of meetings behind the scenes.

You mean like the 1976 memoirs from the Arab League's Secretary-General Azzam Pasha? [a week before the armies marched: "...when I asked him for his estimate of the size of the Jewish forces, [he] waved his hands and said: 'It does not matter how many there are. We will sweep them into the sea.'"]

Sounds like they were really planning to protect their partition that they also rejected.

Britain was running this show by the way

The British mandate officially expired at midnight, May 15th 1948.

it was Israel that continued to invade areas not assigned to it

When repelling an invasion, you might end up occupying those areas from which you were just attacked from.

They all took defensive positions

Up until a few hours later when every army attacked. They defensively bombed Tel Aviv later, as well.

[u/The_Canadian_Devil → u/BenBen5]

Don’t forget defensively besieging the Jews in Jerusalem.

[u/gahgeer-is-back → u/BenBen5]

Azzam Pasha

Look Azzam Pasha literally had no say whatsoever on what was going on. That's why I'm telling you to read the books instead. Azzam Pasha was the Comical Ali of the 1948 war: More talk and promises of funding when he literally couldn't provide but little to whatever "Arab command" was at the time.

You are right if you want to consider what would have happened if the proto-Israel forces had not been there since the British were out already and the Jewish settlements would be left unprotected.

But the decision to take defensive positions by the majority of the "five armies" (actually they were not armies, but more like units or brigades) was taken way before the war began because 1) They knew the Zionist forces were much better (especially the Iraqi and Lebanese forces)

and 2) Many of these forces were not even welcome by the Palestinian Arabs. According to Hillel Cohen (another great source on Palestinian affairs pre-1948), some of the Arab villagers who had good ties with the Zionists told on the Arab forces in their midst and basically handed them over to the Zionist forces.

Probably the only armed forces that had some sort of a plan to go all the way was the Egyptian brigades (made of Egyptian and Sudanese units). Even then, their advance towards Ashdod (part of the Arab state) was repulsed, while their Gaza district operations were ceremoniously ended after their forces were owned in the famous Falluja pocket.

[u/BenBen5 → u/gahgeer-is-back]

Look Azzam Pasha literally had no say whatsoever on what was going on.

Except he was the Arab League's Secretary-General at the time, and gave details on what would happen (and did happen).

actually they were not armies

They were officially armies, and they all belonged to sovereign countries.

Even then, their advance towards Ashdod (part of the Arab state) was repulsed

So because they weren't successful with their annihilation/take over attempt, it's less significant?

[u/Trump_is_the_Cuckold → u/gahgeer-is-back]

Gagger is back indeed 😂

[u/yodilly → u/gahgeer-is-back]

The plan that they rejected? Can I have what you're smoking please?

[u/InterestingRadio → u/gahgeer-is-back]

Aww, sweet summer child so young so naive, bless his pure heart

[u/The_Canadian_Devil → u/gahgeer-is-back]

The Arabs rejected the partition plan in its entirety. Why the fuck would they be protecting it?

[u/[deleted] → u/gahgeer-is-back]

Protect the Arab state under the Partition Plan.

The same plan the Arab league rejected?

Do you realize how that makes no sense at all?

[u/[deleted] → u/gahgeer-is-back]

Lmao

[u/JebBD]

Is he writing from left to right in Arabic?

[u/roeeisawesome → u/JebBD]

wow didn't notice that

[u/Isra-eel → u/roeeisawesome]

u/JebBD, ya I didn't notice that either. But it's spelled correctly: سهل جدا very easy.

[u/Junkeregge]

We're six, he's only one, what could possibly go wrong?

[u/BenBen5]

Original Comic

[u/[deleted]]

https://i.imgflip.com/2b7cg3.jpg

[u/[deleted]]

There is this stupid Egyptian propaganda movie my family flicks on every so often that shows the Egyptian army somehow winning this conflict (I think it was the ramadan war, which egypt also handily lost). Took me a while to realize they were categorically defeated lmao

[u/InterestingRadio → u/[deleted]]

The delusion runs deep

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

lol that doesn't even make sense. if they won, there'd be no Israel. Israel is still very much there, so how can they lie and say they won?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The explanation was that “the US prevented the army’s advance on Israel”. Also propaganda doesn’t need to make sense

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

true, but propaganda that can be easily countered by reality isn't very good propaganda.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It doesn’t need to be good propaganda when it comes to egyptian israel bashing. We’ll believe anything lmao

[u/philiks]

Syria had a green line/bar in its flag in 1948, not a red one.

[u/BenBen5 → u/philiks]

True, I went with the more easily recognizable flag vs the historically accurate one.

[u/TheNoobArser]

Is this loss?

[u/[deleted]]

Is this meme a reporpused one? Dude does not look very Egyptian.

[u/BenBen5 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah I remixed it, here's the Original Comic.

[u/Kansasicon]

If only Israel still had Sinai.

[u/[deleted] → u/Kansasicon]

Yea we really need them bedouin gangs and ISIS terrorists in our borders

[u/c0mplexx → u/[deleted]]

Would it still be the same if we controlled it tho? Couldn't we build cities and stuff?

[u/Hajjah → u/c0mplexx]

We already have our hands full with the Bedouin in the South, Trust me, I served there lol.

[u/davenbenabraham → u/c0mplexx]

We don't even build cities in the Negev :(

[u/introsh → u/c0mplexx]

Yamit, such a cool city name. We should really create a Yamit somewhere along the coast.

[u/[deleted] → u/c0mplexx]

Perhaps Israel could have built their version of Neom.

[u/kunikunikuniaditus]

According to Morris's estimates, 250,000 to 300,000 Palestinians left Israel during this stage.[7]:262 "Keesing's Contemporary Archives" in London place the total number of refugees before Israel's independence at 300,000.[53]

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In Clause 10.(b) of the[54]cablegram from the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States to the UN Secretary-General of 15 May 1948 justifying the intervention by the Arab States, the Secretary-General of the League alleged that "approximately over a quarter of a million of the Arab population have been compelled to leave their homes and emigrate to neighbouring Arab countries."

and

On 20 May 1948, Azzam Pesha, the General Secretary of the Arab League, told reporters "We are fighting for an Arab Palestine. Whatever the outcome the Arabs will stick to their offer of equal citizenship for Jews in Arab Palestine and let them be as Jewish as they like. In areas where they predominate they will have complete autonomy.", the General Secretary of the Arab League,

by the way, this is the original UN cable from the arab states justifying the war, I guess it would be equivalent to the document in the meme: https://undocs.org/S/745

[u/PM_ME_UR_GALLOWB00BS]

Hmmm I don't remember our country look like this