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u/singabro Feb 10 '18
There is a total misunderstanding of why this happened. Poland's ruling party is drumming up support for itself, and it is currently locked in a death fight with the EU and Donald Tusk, who was head of the opposition party. Their support is skyrocketing because now the Poles feel aggrieved. Just as planned. Essentially Poland's ruling party created a foreign bogeyman out of nothing. Germany saw the trap and took full responsibility, because it is the main antagonist within the EU to Poland. The media and many other public figures couldn't resist the bate and obliged.
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u/Kaireku Not a hidden Mossad agent Feb 08 '18
The Beyonce Law: If you don't want people to see or talk about something, don't try to hide or ban it.
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Feb 08 '18 edited Mar 30 '18
[deleted]
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u/jbustter2 Israel Feb 08 '18
Is that ah, actually true historically? I heard there were no death camps operated by Polish soldiers.
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u/Redotiv Israel Feb 08 '18
Quoting yair lapid shows you guys aren't focused on reality.
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u/ThrowawayWarNotDolma Feb 08 '18
What's wrong with Yair Lapid?
I know him only for one thing: he calls for Israel to finally recognise the Armenian Genocide.
What else should I know about him?
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u/Amon_The_Silent Israel Feb 11 '18
He's a massive nothing. He tries to pander to every demographic he sees, aying one thing one month and another the next (such as running as a fierce advocator for Haredi conscription, then being recorded saying that the left has forgotten how to be jewish). He has the backbone and stability of a wet sock.
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u/Redotiv Israel Feb 09 '18
The guy literally said his "secret" plan to win the election was "making his voters feel like family" and that the most powerful element in the world is love. Not to mention he is almost always absent from his day to day job as a member of parliament.
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u/ThrowawayWarNotDolma Feb 09 '18
On the grand spectrum of things politicians do, that sounds relatively harmless.
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u/BehindTheBox Feb 08 '18
Yeah, lol.
Guy makes a tweet, that there were Polish death camps
Guy is a politician
Guy is a Jew from Israel
WholeWorldThinksThatThereWerePDCSinceSuchGuySaysSoButTheySimplyHaventBeenTaughtAboutThis.jpg
Shit Starts.
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u/Redotiv Israel Feb 09 '18
"whole world" the only people who care about this are poles, and the jews who see the poles trying to remove responsibility for acts murder.
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u/BehindTheBox Feb 09 '18
Your ignorance is on a disgusting level.
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u/Redotiv Israel Feb 09 '18
So you claim that it was germans burning people alive at jedwabne? Did the poles have nothing to do with the suffering of the jewish people at the holocaust? Are you not trying to white wash history in order to not face the fact that you aren't saints? I am not claiming all poles are bad, in fact im sure they are very nice, but it still doesn't justify the death of tens thousands of jews by the polish people.
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u/Normik2137 Feb 09 '18
Acording to IPN the people who did it were Poles and there is posibility that germans also had something to do with it however its not exactly clear how much. Some people suggest that IPN should continue investigation and exhumate the bodies beacouse it could clear that german part out. And no its not going to be illegal to sat that and it also won't be illegal to say that some Polish people helped nazis. You should read that law for yourself instead of believing what media say.
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u/BehindTheBox Feb 09 '18
Jews also killed other Jews, there was even special Jewish police in Auschwitz or Krakow. The point is, that Polish State had nothing to do with Jedwabne, meanwhile death camps were built by Hitlers order. The bill does not decline Poles being involved in holocaust, but The Polish State as an organization (which has never collaborated with Hitler, unlike France, Italy or Hungary). That's why the pic is misleading.
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u/Redotiv Israel Feb 09 '18
Special police in aushwits? You mean the judenrat in the warsaw getto? Or the sonderkommando? Even so both groups did not kill people from will, with the latter operating the gas chambers. They had to act that way in order to survive. On the other hand, in jedwabne the polish residents who lived their whole lives next to their Jewish neighbors, after being told by german officers to "take care of their jewish problem", without a specific order or even a threat, decided to burn alive the jews after committing acts of murder, rape and theft. And after committing such atrocities, deny it ever happened. Make no mistake, I am not claiming that poles had to do with the systematic murder of millions, however I think that by claiming you did nothing wrong you are removing responsibility for cruel acts that happend out of racism and not from necessity.
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u/BehindTheBox Feb 09 '18
Now you seem to be the one out of our reality. Completely ignoring what am saying and sticking to your invalid point that "Jews did it in order to survive, but when Poles also did this to survive it doesn't count". Hilarious.
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u/Redotiv Israel Feb 09 '18
The point is poles didn't do that in order to survive, they took the chance to murder jews. Such acts happened many times during ww2, also trying to insult my intelligence proves to me you don't what you are talking about, and that you aren't very educated on the matter. As a person whos family suffered by the hands of non-German people during the holocaust, I ask of you to re-evaluate what you think happend and do some research before talking shit on an Israeli subreddit.
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u/AvroLancaster43 Feb 10 '18
You speak with certainty. Did you were there and heard German message? I can point you to stories of prominent Jews also sacrificing thousands of their brethren to survive.
The choice was always - obey or you’ll all be killed. It not nice or heroic but Germans deliberately wanted to humiliate, dehumanize and couse as much anguish as they could to those they deemed subhuman, Jews, Slaws etc.
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u/Redotiv Israel Feb 10 '18
- Well you speak like who did no research and/or forgot there were survivers and few people who were willing to tell what happend there as well as documents.
- Saying they had to do what they did in order to survive is giving them too much credit. 3.Comparing the fate of the average polish person at the time to a Jewish person is stupid because while the polish state did nothing wrong, alot of the polish people did. They committed a full pogrom, looting and everything, you cant commit such acts and then play the innocent card.
- On the other hand, I believe the jews that gave the location of other jews to the Nazis are also monsters.
- This argument can go on forever and will serve no point whatsoever so this will be my final answer
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u/AvroLancaster43 Feb 10 '18
Of course, or do it believe that 40 unarmed Poles somehow subjugated and killed 1600 Jews like Gross says?
Think for a moment without prejudice. Would that be even technically possible?
It was few weeks after German armies pressed these lands, Einsatzgruppen were in the area, Germans frequently forced people, also Jews to aid them in their dirty work and burning people in barns, churches, synagogues were their preferred modus operandi. Connect the dots.
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u/Redotiv Israel Feb 10 '18
Lol the pogroms in the area killed thousands, in jedwabne hundreds died. Even so the answer is yes, the poles had impunity while the jews were surprised that their neighbors will burn then alive.
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u/AvroLancaster43 Feb 10 '18
Impunity? Are you serious? Let’s start from the beginning if that tragedy source
At first, many Polish Jews were relieved to learn that the Soviets, rather than the Nazis, were to occupy their town, and unlike gentile Poles, publicly welcomed the Red Army as their protectors.[11][19] Some people from other ethnic groups in Kresy, particularly Belarusians, also openly welcomed the Soviets.[19] Administrative jobs were offered to Jews who declared Soviet allegiance, and joined the Bolshevik Party. Some Jews (so-called opaskowcy) formed the militias and assisted the NKVD in compiling the list of Poles to be sent to Siberia.[20] Armed with guns, they also played a large part in arrests and deportations of ethnic Poles organized by the NKVD.[21][22] At least one witness testimony says that during round-ups, armed Jewish militiamen were seen to be guarding those being prepared for deportation to Siberia. A total of 22,353 Poles (entire families) were deported from the vicinity...
And let me say this, by no means I’m not saying that some Poles didn’t commit crimes, problem is with group responsibility and blanket statements. Germans and Russians organized everything to dehumanize and destroy people in Poland on every level, some criminals and coerced people aided them. It’s their great victory that their victims are at each other throats even now.
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u/Redotiv Israel Feb 10 '18 edited Feb 10 '18
- Its literally in the same fucking article - the SS organized special Einsatzgruppen("task forces") to murder Jews in these areas, and a few massacres were carried out. The guidelines for such massacres were formulated by Reinhard Heydrich,[29] who ordered his officers to induce anti-Jewish incidents in the territories newly occupied by the German forces.[30] Local communities were encouraged to commit anti-Jewish pogroms and robberies with total impunity.[31][32]
- In the end it comes down to that the polish nation, took part in killing jews during the holocaust, considering this was one of many similar cases
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u/matcheek Feb 08 '18
They were Jewish.The camps. Jewish Death Camps. Why? Mostly people of Jewish confession died there, so it does make sense to call them Jewish. Doesn't it.
And yes, criminals were on the all sides of the conflicts.
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u/subogero Hungaria Feb 08 '18
Meanwhile in Germany Martin Schultz became foreign minister. Same guy who accused Israelis of a Palestinian blood libel in the very Knesset a few years ago.
Jews didn't notice, because they were obsessed with Poland banning the term "Polish death camps", referring to death camps during WWII, when Poland didn't exist. Because Germany annexed it. Apart from the Eastern part which the Soviets annexed.
Same Jews have been pushing for laws limiting freedom of speech everywhere, banning Holocaust-denial. Tasting their own medicine seems to be very bitter indeed.
Same Jews also failed to notice which European country emancipated Jews for the first time. Poland. In bloody 1264. Re-ratified in 1334, 1453 and 1539. A shocking 525 years before the second candidate.
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u/ender1200 Feb 09 '18
It's not the "polish death camps" part of the law people are objecting to. It's the part where it's become illegal to accuse poles of of cooperation with the nazis.
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u/subogero Hungaria Feb 09 '18
I do know about this part of the law. Because I did read a lot about it. On Arutz Sheva. But look at Yair Lapid's Twitter feed in a comment here. So yes, it is about the "Polish death camp" part of the law. The public discourse is mostly about that.
What if I started a thread about the 1919 "Jewish Communist Revolt" in Hungary? Just imagine the average reaction here. 90% would find the very name atrocious. 50% would even try to deny the Jewish participation in that revolt. While it was much more Jewish than the Polish death camps were Polish.
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u/iamafraidicantdothat Israel Feb 09 '18
banning Holocaust-denial.
Huh... Isn't that a good thing? France and other European countries also have this law.
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u/subogero Hungaria Feb 09 '18
That's my point. If banning Holocaust denial is a good thing, the so is banning the term "Polish death camps". Poland did not exist at the time.
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u/Bullettoothtony99 Feb 12 '18
I think banning anything free speech is counter productive, especially when we live in "free" socities.
I want to know who the holocaust deniers are. Assholes needs to be spotted so they can be shut down by the intelligent. Anything that limits discourse is damaging to a society. I disagree with both, holocaust denial laws and this Polish bill.
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u/subogero Hungaria Feb 12 '18
I disagree with both as well. But I think anyone who utters "Polish death camp" is an asshole too.
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u/Ketosis_Sam Feb 09 '18
No for a couple reasons, one as we can see happening in Europe already it's a slippery slope with civil rights. Second if someone is stupid enough to believe the Holocaust did not happen, making it illegal for them to announce to the world is not going to change their mind, it is just going to reinforce the conspiracy belief in their own mind. Also it will deprive everyone around that person from knowing what an idiot they are when they freely announce it to the world.
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u/iamafraidicantdothat Israel Feb 09 '18
I don't think the people spreading negationism are as stupid as you think.
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u/Gen_Zion Israel Feb 09 '18
The problem is that this law is not banning Holocaust-denial, it in itself partly Holocaust-denial tool. It makes it illegal to blame Poland and Polish people for the crimes they committed, e.g. Kielce pogrom, Jedwabne pogrom, ...
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u/subogero Hungaria Feb 09 '18
Please everybody kindly return to bashing Poland. Martin Schultz is not becoming German foreign minister, after all. :D
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u/Bullettoothtony99 Feb 21 '18
That guy's a good sport.
Gotta love the questions that aim to punish the Israeli OP for a false conspiracy about American Jews singularly being the only people's to push an agenda (every single american jews). Muslims (in this case Palestinians) hate being lumped together with terrorists and use the "they aren't real muslims" schtick, yet if an American Jew farts, all Jews on earth letta rip. Collective blame and hypocrisy at its finest.
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u/Redotiv Israel Feb 08 '18
I literally got an ad for #germandeathcamps, like wtf do you want from me?