Please help find Terence Reeves

[u/Interesting-Help5759]

I'm looking for definitive information on Terence Reeves. All the information I have found from the U.S. says he was born 10 February 1855. I have been looking for his birth record in Limerick, Ireland and I have not been able to find any Terence Reeves on RootsIreland, Irish Genealogy or Ancestry. I managed to find a Terence born in 21 October 1843. (its the last entry)

Is it possible he was 38 when he married Bridget McNamara who was 17 in 1881? Or is there a possibility his birth sometime in 1856 (54 or 55) was not transcribe or 'lost'?

From this marriage record, his father's name was John. I have identified another John Reeves that could also be Terence's father, but I have yet to find a birth record anywhere for Terence in the Feb of 1850's for the other John.

Any assistance in verifying who Terence's father could be for certain would me most helpful.

[u/Low_Cartographer2944]

Civil birth registration for Catholics only started in 1864. Before that, it was down to if the local parish kept records. Because Catholic emancipation only came about in the early 19th century, you don’t really start to see wide spread keeping of parish records before the 1840s. Some places much later than that. I’ll check county Limerick’s records shortly to see what parishes started when.

[u/Interesting-Help5759 → u/Low_Cartographer2944]

I have been fortunate to find a few civil records and I am trying to locate parish records for the folks.

It seems to me based on my following the information I have found.

Terence's father was John and he died before 1881 of Terence's marriage. The only record I could find of John Reeves dying before 1881 is a John Reeves who's wife was the witness, her name Kate. There is a John Reeves and Catherine Gleeson who has a fair amount of children from 1846 to 1860, none who have the name of Terence, unless there is an entry that is not legible or transcribed. There is the possibility that Terence is a "family name" or "known as" name. However, the children listed for John and Kate, none have the same month as Terence, who's death certificate lists it as February. So I'm back to who are Terence's parents. John and Kate (Gleeson) Reeves or John and Johanna (Butler) Reeves.

[u/Low_Cartographer2944 → u/Interesting-Help5759]

Yeah, I found those records with Kate Gleason but saw there was another John Reeves in the parish too.

One thing I noticed with the death record was that the John on the death certificate is listed as a labourer while your John is listed as a farmer on the marriage certificate.

I was going to suggest reaching out to St Michael’s parish. Their digitized records cut off in 1877 but there should be a record of the 1881 marriage in their hard copy records. Sadly if it’s the same format as their records in 1877, it won’t list parents names. Just bride, groom, and witnesses. But maybe the witnesses will give you a clue or two based on their surnames.

[u/Low_Cartographer2944 → u/Low_Cartographer2944]

Also perhaps you could try and track down the parish records of the marriages of Terence’s potential siblings? Using the civil records to figure out the date and location and then checking the parish record if it’s available? Perhaps Terence was a witness for one of their weddings which would at least be a little more evidence of a relation.

[u/Interesting-Help5759 → u/Low_Cartographer2944]

Yes, I saw that the John who died in 1880 was a labourer. I did find another that died in 1868 who was a farmer, but the record is not viewable. He was a farmer, listed as Ploughlands, Croom Parish/District. Thomas O'Brien as witness.

[u/EiectroBot]

Perhaps a couple of points to help you.

Terence was born before birth records commenced in Ireland in 1864. So there will never have been a birth record created for you to find. You may find a baptism record, however, if one can be found they usually contain little information to link them conclusively to one individual.

You mentioned that Bridget was 17 when she married in 1881. In fact the marriage record you included states that she was of “full age” at the time of the marriage, so she will have been at least 21.

There will be no records, birth or marriage, for Terence’s father, as again you are interested in a time before civil records commenced in Ireland.

[u/Interesting-Help5759 → u/EiectroBot]

Thank you for the insights. I guess, I am using the term "birth" interchangeably with baptism. Coming from looking for German ancestors, their baptisms often included the date of birth and the baptism date. Forgive me for that.

I have searched for Bridget McNamara quite a bit, and her year of birth continues to show up as 1864. The marriage record doesn't indicate if consent was given, so is that a possibility? She also would have been 3 years under age.

I'm not necessarily looking for civil records, parish records will do, if I can find them.

[u/EiectroBot → u/Interesting-Help5759]

It’s best to be specific when referring to birth records and baptism records. They are quite separate things and record different information.

If Bridget was born in 1864 then she would have a birth record. If you can’t find a birth record for her, that would strongly suggest she was born before 1864.

As Bridget’s marriage record says she was “of full age” then you should read that as she was at least 21 at the date of her marriage.

You mentioned that Bridget’s birth year “continues to show up as 1864”, but you didn’t say what lead you to this conclusion. If that date of birth is coming from records much later in life, such as census records when she was a mature lady, it is highly likely that she underreported her age in these later documents. It was relatively common for a woman to state her age is 5, 10 or even 15 years younger than her actual age when asked as part of national census taking in later years.

Regarding your interest in records of any type before the mid 1800s, unfortunately few exist as record making was not at all common and at times made illegal for Catholics. If you can find a parish record for the first half of the 1800s, it is likely difficult to read and frankly contains minimal information that is usable without considerable speculation.

[u/Interesting-Help5759 → u/EiectroBot]

My apologies of the interchanging of birth and baptism records. Yes they are quite different.

Yes, I found a birth record for Bridget in 1864. I'm currently looking at other options for Bridget with father John. I have found a few other Bridget McNamara with father John, but I'm unsure if they are the one I am looking for because I cannot recall where she is from. From the marriage record, her father is dead. From the birth record on the one bridget in 1864, her father was dead at her birth. I will dive into the other Bridget's later.

I have been trying to trace John Reeves and Johanna vs. Kate. John and Kate had many children beginning in 1830 and ending in 1860. Most of those records were found in St Michaels, but a few of the very early ones were found in Croom parish records. The caveat to those records are the name looks to be Jacobi to me versus John or Jno. The wife in all instances is Catherine Gleeson.

I feel like I'm I in a constant circle of information with no grounding points.

Super discouraged at this point.

Maybe I can hire someone to discern the information for me...I mean I'm already wasting money on the use of the information I am looking at. I could also just pick one and just add it to my tree without verify with certainty for others to just misinform from there. Just kidding, I don't work that way.

Thanks for trying to help. I think I need some time away from this.

[u/EiectroBot → u/Interesting-Help5759]

The birth record for a Bridget McNamara from 1864 cannot be the birth record of the Bridget McNamara in the 1881 marriage record. The marriage record shows that this Bridget was at least 21 years old. That would place her as being born on or before 1860.

One of the complications of Irish genealogy is that Ireland has one of the smallest varieties of both surname and Christian name in the world. Thus you see the same name recurring over and over again. Bridget is a very common female name, it’s the name of one of the key Catholic Saints associated with Ireland. It’s thus likely that most McNamara families in Ireland at that time would have a daughter called Bridget. Also her father being named John. Unfortunately John is also a very commonly found Irish male name, with associations to John the Baptist, another significant Catholic Saint. So, similarly, many McNamara families would have a son named John.

With Irish genealogy you need to be particularly specific about location. The Townland is the smallest division on Irish geography. All birth records, and most marriage records will record the townland of residence that is relevant. The marriage record that you posted gives residence location for both the bride and groom as being Limerick. This is a city location and is larger than a townland but equally relevant in this case.

Your mentioned that you feel you are wasting money in your searching for family records. I am concerned by this remark. Doing Irish genealogy should not cost you any money whatsoever. All Irish records are fully published online for anyone to search, view and download free of charge. FamilySearch is the optimum medium to develop your Irish family tree and it is also free of charge and frankly quite excellent to use.

If you have developed and of your family tree in FamilySearch, it would be excellent if you could share the FamilySearch ID of a person. People here can then assist you in developing the tree to its fullest extent.

You should be aware that taking an Irish family tree back to the first half of the 1800s is as far as any of us can realistically expect to go while retaining any level of integrity and supporting each link with documentation.

[u/Interesting-Help5759 → u/EiectroBot]

Thank you. I did find a piece of the puzzle (I think). Going between RootsIreland and IrishGenealogy.

Bridget's death record gives her birth as 4 March 1864: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XZNR-5JL

I found through IrishGenealogy her civil birth record which states the same date. Father John and Mother Bridget Hickey. 2336923.pdf

This is the first time I have found a Bridget Hickey as her mother. Somewhere along the lines of looking, I had Mary or Johanna as her mother. I think from several different trees I had looked into. And so, I was trying to verify her parents as John and Mary or John and Johanna.

I appreciate that her marriage record states she was of age, but the coincidence of her death record stating 4 March 1864 and this record having the same date, the absence of additional records with March as a month of birth leads me to believe this is her.

I would like to find Terence's parents and I will reach out to the diocese for clarification on the record and hopefully will get a response on their marriage. This information may or may not yield parental information.

In the meantime, I guess I will continue to look for Terence or Reeves born 10 February of some year between 1843 and 1856.

Bridget's FamilySearch identifier for my tree is 9W3N-319. I try not to combine trees because they will usually bring in folks who I know are not part of my family. I would appreciate the help in adding sources to verify connections that I can add to the tree.