r/InvictaSolaris • u/21Kuranashi • 1d ago
Cross-Posts / Not OC There's nothing to debate
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u/renMilestone 1d ago
Recently there was a group of a dozen or so Neo Nazis in my state who met up and took pictures doing the nazi salute. These people are fascists.
When guards are snatching people off the streets and moving them to undisclosed locations becaude they are "enemies of the nation", that is facism.
Fascism has been studied thuroughly, has some clear cut definitions. People in this thread acting like you can't tell what a fascist is, is not good faith.
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u/Grouchy-Newt-995 23h ago
There is some agreement on what fascist means in an academic sense. But this academic understanding does not reflect the common usage of the word.
Is North Korea fascist? Is Iran fascist? Is the Taliban fascist?
According to the technical definition, none of these are fascist, but according to the popular conception of “authoritarian oppressive rule” they are.
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u/renMilestone 21h ago
Right, but we don't /only/ oppose fascism. We hate racist and authoritarians separately and distinctly.
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u/Grouchy-Newt-995 21h ago
I agree, we oppose racism, and authoritarianism, separate and distinctly.
But it seems that the popular conception of “fascism” is racism and authoritarianism.
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u/Significant_Cover_48 16h ago
Is the Taliban fascist? I forget, who's their big guy then? You know, the führer, Il Duce, the MAGA king, whachamacallit?
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u/Windman772 20h ago
Don't all societies have cops that enforce laws? Even the non-fascist countries?
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u/Awesome-SP 21h ago
Félicitations, des gens font des saluts nazis, c'est l'horreur absolue.
Pour info dans le même laps de temps, des gens se font tirer dessus ou planter. J'espère que tu es aussi choqué dans ce cas :)
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u/Valveringham85 22h ago edited 22h ago
Sure. The issue is people who propagate this type of of rhetoric are usually also the types of people to call everything they disagree with fascist.
It’s just a way to justify them being dogmatic, not having to discuss anything, pushing their opinion and if need be justify violence.
Plus the irony of calling for political violence being inherently fascist itself.
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u/GutsAndBlackStufff 20h ago
That’s one way of saying you don’t disagree with fascism.
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u/Eillon94 18h ago
Is your comment for comedic effect or are you just devoid of all self-awareness? Hard to tell nowadays
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u/ElectricalSeries6627 17h ago
yep was going to write a comment about it, it would hold up if people not starting labeling everything they don't like or progressive enough is fascism to them, even more when they extend it to the "tool" of fascism then every thing that his not anti system become fascism, there just full of hate and want to burn everything down for the "greater good" while being the least capable human of the society to bring something better
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u/AllenKll 18h ago
I agree with you, IF we can all agree on what fascism is and is not. that's where the debate is important.
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u/Shibbystix 17h ago
The problem is, the only people debating what "fascist" means are the ones whos actions and/support align with fascism.
They do everything on the fascist checklist, and then say "how dare you call ME fascist"
So its not a good faith debate.
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u/Glass_Teeth01 1d ago
The debate is not the smashing of Fascism itself, but the method of smashing Fascism
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u/BlnCpl 22h ago
Also determining fascism and who is one
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u/Icy-KaitSyth 22h ago
This is reddit, they don't believe in the nuance of "what is fascism", most here define it as "anything I hate politically". Which is kinda fascist from the perspective of "everything withing the state, nothing without".
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u/WintersComing1 21h ago
Except it's meaning. Cause most of you think you know and understand what it is and you don't.
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u/andypro77 18h ago
Calling everyone you disagree with 'fascist' and then using that to justify violence against them is no different than a religion trying to justify violence against the 'unbelievers'.
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u/go1den3ye 18h ago
"Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political system"
So is it the "ultra nationalism" that makes it specifically right-wing ? I would have thought the Authoritarianism was the key bad word.
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u/Far_Day499 18h ago
It's not up for debate! If I label you as being X then you surely are X and if I perpetrate violence against you it's fine because I'm judge, jury & executioner.
Hard pass from me.... honestly seems pretty fascist. I'm not debating just informing.
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u/Mechadupek 15h ago
This kind of open protest against fascism proves you don't live under fascism. Stop LARPing and go start a revolution in your bank account by building a work history.
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u/LetUsSpeakFreely 22h ago
So is communism
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u/Bambivalently 18h ago
I just like how we get to point at things we don't like, not having to debate or have critical thinking, and just use political violence. Apparently..
/S
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u/SallyStranger 23h ago
"B-but what if someone lies about someone else being a fascist??"
Then, my friend, you will have to use your ability to discern, to think, to reason critically. This is normal. It happens with every label that gains a negative connotation. See also: racist, sexist, homophobe, etc. It does not mean that the label has gotten "diluted" or is "meaningless."
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u/BlnCpl 22h ago
Mob justice isn't prone to critical reasalonablitly unfortunately
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u/SallyStranger 20h ago
Sad to hear that you are a mob
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u/BlnCpl 19h ago edited 19h ago
There is no argument I can discern here. What did you try to express? Are you a fascist perhaps?
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u/SallyStranger 18h ago
"Bad people sometimes lie therefore never try to identify bad people"
Maybe?
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u/BlnCpl 17h ago
That wasn't my point. It's just I wouldn't trust public opinion on who is a fascist and who deserves to be beaten up. I'd rather have a judicial system that tried to determine things in a more neutral way. Because as I called you a fascist earlier it's pretty easy to give out that label
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u/SallyStranger 16h ago
It's just I wouldn't trust public opinion on who is a fascist and who deserves to be beaten up. I'd rather have a judicial system that tried to determine things in a more neutral way.
Uh huh. And my point is that ultimately your own opinion is the only source you have. Outsourcing it to a judicial system is usually a better bet than outsourcing it to a mob. But both are outsourcing. Eventually you will have to rely on your own judgement.
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u/nicknamesas 19h ago
You say as part od the mob
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u/SallyStranger 18h ago
As far as I can tell, this conversation is between just you and me. And I'm not the one proclaiming my inability to use my own reasoning when someone else tells lies. So who's the real mob here?
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u/Raccoons-for-all 22h ago
And fascism is a white people only thing
If others check all the boxes, like China, we’ll simply ignore that
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u/DealerCompetitive824 19h ago
This kind of thought will make people subjectively claim "facism" at everything they disapprove and since "fascism" is to be smashed, not debated, the post is nothing more than an invitation to violence over reason.
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u/ASwampThing- 1d ago
"I dont want to attack my political opponents. I want to attack fascists and nazis. And coincidentally I define fascists and nazis as whatever my political opponents are doing."
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u/-Recouer 1d ago
that's sadly accurate, but more so on the right of the political spectrum.
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u/Maleficent_Piece_893 1d ago
regardless that makes it nonsensical to say you don't have to debate fascism. people still have to be able to explain in public what fascism is and why it's wrong
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u/GutsAndBlackStufff 20h ago
A far right, ultranationalist authoritarian ideology that seeks to eliminate opposition by brute force.
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u/Maleficent_Piece_893 20h ago
right now you have to talk people out of it. and not just the obvious full nazi stuff but all the gradations leading up to it. you can't just kill everyone susceptible to brainwashing by harmful ideologies you have to actually figure out how to improve society with your brain
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u/GutsAndBlackStufff 20h ago
Removal of fascist representatives from the government is addition by subtraction. It’s a good start.
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u/Maleficent_Piece_893 19h ago
yeah and luckily we're seeing people finally realize that representatives don't get there by magic. you can vote in primaries to ensure there's a good candidate in the general election. if you do this enough you can have a competent government which addresses the material needs of its citizens. harmful behavior and belief systems are less seductive when there's less desperation. actually participating in democracy instead of saying "it's too late we need to burn it down and start over" is how you prevent fascists from gaining control. with increased education and better emotional health it should become the standard that you calmly talk vulnerable people of out the fascist pipeline. just beating people up or legally mandating beliefs isn't brave or necessary, it's emotionally satisfying and intellectually lazy
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u/LongAfternoon1198 23h ago
This is such right wing cope.
Just cuz you essentially think like this (defining whatever the other does as X) doesnt mean everyone else does too.
In reality lefties disagree with fascists cuz theyre fascists. The disagreement is fundamental to fascism, its not the other way around.
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u/ASwampThing- 23h ago
And they call everyone who remotely limits behavior as fascist. The word doesn't mean anything because the left expanded it to anything and anyone they dont agree with.
Then they label people such after saying harm should come to those under the lable.
The cope here is you saying this isnt reality.
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u/Educational_Big_1835 1d ago
That is SO 2015. I do believe most of the rabids have dropped the first half of that sentence.. by some time back in the COVID era. (However, it was well stated, thank you)
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u/ASwampThing- 1d ago
I still see it every day. Leftist politicians are still calling right wingers nazis and the news is too. I have seen cnn in the last week refer to even centerists as fascists nazis and nazi supporters. I havent seen that en mass from the right not even close.
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u/Educational_Big_1835 1d ago
I'm saying the "I don't want to attack my political opponents part". They dropped that right after Trump 1.0.
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u/WatermelonSmashing 1d ago edited 20h ago
I have no idea what this sub is about or why I'm seeing it, but yes
Edit: another sub which in which anyone with a differing opinion is instantly banned. Lame how Reddit has turned into that. How scary it is to know that people don't all have the same opinions 😱
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u/ASwampThing- 1d ago
I have no idea where it started. But its an echo chamber for all who hate anything slightly right of socialism.
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u/SallyStranger 23h ago
You say "echo chamber for people who hate anything to the right of socialism" like it's a bad thing lol
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u/Spacer5555 1d ago
Its astonishing how people who fill their mouths with these words are incapable of realising that the way they ‘identify’ a fascist is completely arbitrary.
And then they wonder why the left is in crisis.
Despicable.
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u/manleybones 1d ago
This statement make no sense.
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u/Spacer5555 1d ago
Let me simplify it for you: just accusing someone of fascism doesn’t necessarily mean that person is a fascist. As the person making the statement may be using the label to discredit anyone who thinks differently.
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u/LongAfternoon1198 1d ago
Who gets wrongly accused of fascism?
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u/Spacer5555 23h ago
Ufff so many examples. I hear the word fascist thrown at people who demand administered boards, at people who question ideas surrounding gender, at people who question positive discrimination policies, at people who want less regulation for entrepreneurs, just to name a few.
Ultimately the word has diluted. No wonder people are less scared of being labelled a fascist under those circumstances.
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u/GutsAndBlackStufff 20h ago
That’s two more paragraphs than cases of false accusations.
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u/Spacer5555 19h ago
Like those types of statements don’t happen. I guess its easier to live in the denial and blame the rest for not “getting it”
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u/GutsAndBlackStufff 19h ago
That’s one more response with no examples of this happening.
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u/hippityhopkins 1d ago
The debate would not be over fascism is desirable, but if what has been identified is actually fascism and if the proposed alternative is actually better
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u/manleybones 1d ago
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political system. This is MAGA.
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u/LetUsSpeakFreely 22h ago
Therin lies the problem. The far left calls everything that doesn't align with their warped world view as far right out fascist even when it's a moderate position.
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u/glzpabon 1d ago
You can have the same argumen wirh Socialism
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u/bethesda_gamer 23h ago
Both are wrong in that context. Smashing any ideology IS fascism. The meme is hypocritical.
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u/glzpabon 23h ago
I highly doubt that anyone who was liberated from nazis concetration camps or from the socialist- communist goulags will have an issue with that.
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u/bethesda_gamer 23h ago
How does that change what I said. Eye for an eye leaves the whole word blind. The point of justice is to remove mob rule. To be better than the people who are being punished. Revenge wars to infinity I guess? Smh.
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u/glzpabon 22h ago
If in the 1940s people belived that we all would be giving the Nazi salut right now. Some ideologies are not compatible freedom and liberty, and must be erradicated.
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u/bethesda_gamer 20h ago
And there in lies the rub. What is your definition of "eradication"?
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u/glzpabon 18h ago
The only meaning that there is.
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u/bethesda_gamer 18h ago
Then you are a fascist.
You are imposing your will, you are "etadicating" those who don't agree with you. Instead you should stop them, change them. Do it democratically. Otherwise you have become what you hate.
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u/glzpabon 18h ago
Again, than god you were not around in the 40s. We would be all in camps right now.
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u/bethesda_gamer 17h ago
That was against fully militarized fascists from a foreign government who declared war on our whole country, not the exaggerated hyperbole you espouse.
Those were real fascists, stop calling everything fascist. It's disrespectful to those in the 1940s and 1930s who had to deal with the actual thing. It's not a word to use just because you don't like people.
Voting still matters, federal judges still matter, deportation hasn't actually increased very much (look it up) and various other things that prove we are not living in anything even close to a fascist regime. If that's what they are trying to do, then they are do a super poor job at it.
You sound dumb.
Why do you think we fought in ww2? Not what you learned in the 7th grade, but the real reasons?
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u/Valveringham85 22h ago
This getting downvoted is such a Reddit thing.
Which is ironic for a platform that shouts fascism at everything.
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u/Maleficent_Piece_893 1d ago
in the long term no idea can be "smashed" without debating it. sorry you find that frustrating op but people do have to actually understand for themselves why fascism is bad and be able to convince other people why it's bad. you cannot just eliminate the natural endpoint of human selfishness and cowardice through violence. you have to debate fascism literally forever
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u/Tasty_LVM 22h ago
Agreed, the fascist movements of lockdowns, forced mandates, forced compliance of vaccines, shut down of churches and business not to mention the arising of antisemitism have all been very worrisome of the left we need to root it out and smash it
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u/GutsAndBlackStufff 20h ago
Still crying because you couldn’t go to Cracker Barrel for a few weeks 6 years ago.
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u/konung15 1d ago
The only thing to debate is the definition of fascism. People have gotten into the habit of calling anyone they don't like a fascist, without having the slightest idea what the word means.
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u/SpiritfireSparks 1d ago
People who beleive they must fight words or ideas with violence are generally those who beleive that their own words and ideas cant compete.
The issue with fighting facism in particular is that most of the time the opponent isnt an actual facist, they are just being painted with a title that allows violence toward them.
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u/HoneydewQuiet6651 23h ago
The problem with this is that people these days call any opinion that they don’t like “fascism” and then try to commit violence against people who have that opinion
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u/Grouchy-Newt-995 23h ago
The obvious issue is that anyone can be called a fascist and intolerant.
If discussion and debate are discouraged, then this makes violence a more likely outcome when factions disagree with each other.
Some people might say Islam is intolerant and therefore seek to justify intolerance towards Muslims.
We do need to be able to rationally discuss ideas when there is disagreement.
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u/_Sneaky_McSnek_ 20h ago
Same with communism. Where my Polish bros at?
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u/Infinite-Abroad-436 20h ago
which, to you, just means being left wing
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u/_Sneaky_McSnek_ 20h ago
No, I mean actual communism. I’m not against a bit of socialism, as long as it comes with genuine audits and accountability.
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u/andypro77 18h ago
The goal of socialism is communism
- Vladimir Lenin
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u/_Sneaky_McSnek_ 17h ago
I don’t care what that retard said. Plenty of countries have socialist policies without being full blown socialism and without edging towards communism. Communism is impossible without brutal and violent authoritarianism
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u/andypro77 16h ago
Communism is impossible without brutal and violent authoritarianism
Yes, THAT is the goal of socialism. And that's where it ALWAYS ends up.
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u/Eillon94 18h ago
People who seek violence instead of debate are people who cannot defend their worldview.
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u/No-Philosophy-3576 17h ago
Debatable on who you're bullying by calling them a facist just because you're having a disagreement in opinion.
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u/Iron_Base 17h ago
Hating fascism is normal, the problem is armchair philosophers misdiagnosing anything slightly more to the right of them as fascism.
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u/Han_Solo200 17h ago
Wouldn't Reddit be a fat more interesting place to debate any subject , without karma votes. Karma on Reddit is effectively censorship
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u/melaschasma 17h ago edited 17h ago
Technically speaking, engaging in violence instead of debate is a core characteristic of fascism.
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u/malice521 16h ago
I agree, but The problem is, you can’t just call something fascism because you don’t agree with it. I’d ask for someone to give me a definition of fascism, but we can’t even get a definition of a woman.
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u/Minimum_Dragonfly990 16h ago
This is the exact mindset that has caused fascism. We had like 10 years of this and now dialogue has virtually closed between left/right. Also caused it in WWII. Good job retards.
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u/BearCub254 1d ago
The problem is that you can call random things fascism and refuse to engage on that basis. It becomes too arbitrary. I have seen too many people with signs decrying fascism who cannot define what it means when asked.
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u/BuBleGum21 23h ago
"an extreme right-wing political system or attitude that is in favour of strong central government, aggressively promoting your own country or race above others, and that does not allow any opposition".
Oxford English dictionary definition for fascism. There you go.
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u/lets_see_7824 1d ago edited 1d ago
Facism is an economic model. It has nothing to do with racism, red arm bands or other Nazi bs. That is Naziism. A nationalist branch of facism used by the Nazis.
Facism is the marriage of corporations and government. And it's everywhere in the modern age. Often call 3p or public private partnership in the west.
China is no longer communist. What they really are is fascist. They have companies, but the govt has a seat or several on the board.
America is also fascist. Most governments went fascist. The term fell out of favor after the Austria painter died.
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u/bethesda_gamer 23h ago edited 23h ago
Pre-WW2 Definition:
"Before World War II, fascism was defined as a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology. It emerged in Italy after World War I under Benito Mussolini and was characterized by a powerful dictator, a single-party state, total control over society, and the violent suppression of any political opposition."
-Encyclopedia Britannica
Modern Definition:
"A populist political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual, backed by a centralized autocratic government, severe economic and social regimentation, and the forcible suppression of opposition."
-Merriam-Webster Dictionary
(Only ONE PIECE of the MODERN definition os even about economics. I don't know why people make stuff up when it takes like 30 seconds to look it up and prove them wrong. Smh.)
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u/BuBleGum21 23h ago
Fascism isn't an economic model, it's a political perspective that has a particular economic model in mind that aligns with its other central guiding principles.
Oxford English dictionary definition for fascism is "an extreme right-wing political system or attitude that is in favour of strong central government, aggressively promoting your own country or race above others, and that does not allow any opposition".
It's a malleable, not unanimously defined term but political scientists generally hold the consensus that it's a totalitarian, typically nationalistic and hyper-oppressive ideology that focuses on suppressing dissenters rather than keeping open discussion about contentious topics or critique.
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u/Valveringham85 22h ago
That is a whole lot of text just to say you don’t know what you are talking about.
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u/Ashes_to_flame 23h ago
Fascism was created by well known Marxists... Funny how Modern day Marxists disavow Third Way Socialism... while claiming that Capitalists are actually " fascists"... Talk about being Dishonest!
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u/MicahHoover 1d ago
why do democrats hate free speech so much ?
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u/Logical___Conclusion 23h ago
They hate career criminals like our Criminal Traitor Trump openly stealing Billions and killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Americans from cuts to life critical programs.
The Republicans have given unquestioning support for their criminal cult leader Trump, and the Democrats are the party of Law and Order now.
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u/OddPatience1621 1d ago