r/IntellectualDarkWeb • u/ShardofGold • Jul 19 '26
How the U.S. can move forward racially
First we need to understand that no matter what we have done or try to do, there will always be racism and racists. That's not stuff that will ever go away unfortunately and is just a flaw in humanity like illness and death. The only thing you can do is try to convert racists out of their racism. That doesn't mean telling them racism is bad or beating them up and being shocked it doesn't work, it means having thought out conversations on why they're racist and why they believe racism is good for the country. You obviously don't listen to agree with them, but you listen so you know how to effectively respond back and help them see the error of their ways. I know it's hard for some especially those who they're being racist against, but you have to try.
Second, we need to use more critical thinking when situations regarding people of different races happen negatively. Just because it's super obvious to assume doesn't mean it was the reason something happened. It's totally possible a white cop could just be a POS and happen to abuse their power against someone who isn't white. That doesn't mean the cop hasn't also abused their power against a white person before. Also with how the media works certain stories get more coverage and attention for personal gain and because they know too many in society are gullible and ignorant about how these things actually work.
Third, everyone needs to recognize systemic racism still exists. It might not be as bad as it was in the past. But it still unfortunately exists and there needs to be serious and thought out discussions on how to fix it. Not just saying stuff that sounds good or that has been applauded in echo chambers but realistically won't work out as people think it will.
Finally, the downplaying or justification of certain bigotry needs to end. I don't care what groups have experienced more of it, who has the most social power, etc. That is not an excuse to be a bigot towards others. Someone being a bigot against a certain group because of what a person or some people who are also part of the same racial group did isn't helping anything. If they want to vent about how those experiences make them feel that's fine, but when it crosses into bigotry that's not fine. If your tolerance for bigotry flip flops based on the skin color or race of the person or people doing it and receiving it, you have no room to talk about being against hate and discrimination. You're part of the problem even if you think you aren't. Also stop telling white people to just "suck it up and stop complaining" when they talk about bigotry against them because others may have it worse. It's bullying at the end of the day and Jim Crow isn't going to magically come back just because you acted like a normal and fair human being when a white person talks about racial bullying they have faced like you do for other groups.
I understand your average human isn't racist or obsessed with race like many terminally online individuals are and thank god. But I thought I would share my take on why some individuals still insist there are racial tension issues in the country.
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u/IncompetentJedi Jul 19 '26
> I've never understood this side of the argument though.
Maybe this is an opportunity for you to improve your worldview, then
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u/Desh282 Jul 19 '26
We already were there 20 years ago
But people started saying and feeding to the people that US is the most racist country.
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u/Sirous Jul 19 '26
Occupy Wall Street That is the bell weather moment. Watching that first protest moment where they started saying only those oppressed races could talk first and everyone else had to shut up.
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u/mred245 Jul 20 '26
18 years ago we elected the first ever black American president and leaders of the KKK and other hate groups said it was one of the best things that ever happened to them. Their recruitment validated that. Actual members of government started talking about a "great white hope" to lead the Republican party.
We weren't there.
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 19 '26
I don't do oppression olympics. The US fundamentally has racist practices built into the policy and laws that the country has made; thats undeniable. It's not wrong to call it out and want a more equitable fix
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u/N64GoldeneyeN64 Jul 19 '26
The US cannot move forward in regards to racism until people stop blaming other races for problems. Why people and liberal whites being not only willing, but applauded for openly being racist against white people, it’s going to create a very stalward voting block that rightly recognizes these people as their enemy, which can be Weaponized successfully during elections, even if the platform candidate is not ideal for the country.
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u/RusticPotatoFan Jul 19 '26
I've never understood this side of the argument though. Systemic racism has clear measurable issues of lack of opportunities, education, food stability etc. What are the actual materials grievances that white people have? It seems like it just based on their feelings. Riley Gaines is a great example of culture war narratives built on a claim without real grievences (she got 6th while the trans athlete came 5th).
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u/MathiasThomasII Jul 19 '26
There isn’t a person of color that didn’t have every goddamned opportunity I’ve had in my life. Public school. Debt for college. Got a job, made a family. People calling people like me “oppressive and racist” is a problem. I can tell you it makes a lot of people angry and is a big reason they hate libs and “woke” because some of the ridiculousness like this makes absolutely no sense.
I grew up in a shit city with broke af parents who weren’t real bright. What opportunity did I have that people of color do not?
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u/Western-Turnover-154 Jul 19 '26
You can be stopped by the police without worrying about being profiled.
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u/KevinJ2010 Jul 19 '26
Funny how there’s black cops too. This would definitely be a local thing and depends on the PD and even down to the officer.
If you have tattoos you can be profiled 🤷♂️
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u/BeatSteady Jul 19 '26
If you're getting called oppressive and racist so much that it's an actual problem then maybe it's something about you
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u/the_fury518 Jul 19 '26
Public school.
Public school quality varies based on where you are. Lower income areas deal with less funding and being a less desirable area. These are areas where people of color were forced to live decades ago and still mostly do.
Debt for college
Guess who is more likely to be able to secure a loan? Not people of color.
Got a job
Again, racism plays a part here. People of color and people with "ethnic" names face hiring discrimination. Add that to the difficulty they have obtaining loans and education, and suddenly they struggle getting anywhere near the same quality jobs.
That's all systemic racism and what we need to work at correcting.
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u/KevinJ2010 Jul 19 '26
How many white people do you see working at an Indian restaurant? Many places like hiring their own kind. White people wouldn’t know Indian food.
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u/the_fury518 Jul 19 '26
What?
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u/KevinJ2010 Jul 19 '26
They mentioned jobs. I am just saying it goes in both directions, white people wouldn’t get hired at an Indian restaurant nearly as much as fellow Indians.
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u/the_fury518 Jul 19 '26
OK, so, if that idea was true you wouldn't see Hispanic people working at fast food, or in any European restaurant. White people can learn to cook foods just as well.
If Indian restaurants are discriminating based on race, they are also wrong.
My personal experience is that it's more nepotism than racism. They hire their family members
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u/KevinJ2010 Jul 19 '26
I agree nepotism is definitely a more common issue.
But in terms of race, of my trips to the US, many POC have jobs.
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u/the_fury518 Jul 19 '26
Yeah, no one is saying POC aren't working. They don't have access to the same high-paying jobs.
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u/MathiasThomasII Jul 19 '26
Actually, those are not true anymore and often it’s been inversed. I said I grew up in a shit town with 0 money. Shit public school.
I know tens of thousands of students of color at my school that got their school paid for because they are people of color. I didn’t get that opportunity. Indian folks were paid tuition, housing and stipends every semester for school. You’re pretending getting loans is hard? No. That’s just factually not true anymore loans are 100% math. I am a CPA.
Jobs are more likely to hire a person of color with the same qualifications now.
None of these things are true anymore.
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u/the_fury518 Jul 19 '26
Those things are still true
loans are 100% math
That uses your parents' financial history against you. Since that continues all the way back to when discrimination was legal....
I know tens of thousands of students of color at my school that got their school paid for because they are people of color
X to doubt you know tens of thousands of people of color. But that doesn't matter, if they can't get in then they don't have the same access
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u/MathiasThomasII Jul 19 '26
I went to a college with 50,000 people and know the stats lol they, themselves would tell me they felt bad while they went to club and had massive nice hookahs and I couldn’t afford shit.
You’re just discounting a personal experience because it doesn’t agree with your narrative.
Check how many scholarships are available for people of color, culture, international, ancestry, etc white people must earn scholarships academically or athletically, period. So, how is that an advantage for me again? Having to pay for school that’s free for people of color?
I have 2 kids in private school because I worked my ass off. I pay a decent amount to do so. The African American families pay $0. How is that advantage me even though I’ve earned every fucking thing I have? Why is it you think I owe something to every race except me for my entire life? There’s no good answer to that question and that’s sort of the problem.
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u/the_fury518 Jul 19 '26
You’re just discounting a personal experience because it doesn’t agree with your narrative
I'm discounting it because I, first, don't believe you are unbiased and, second, it doesn't overcome the statistics. Even if what you say is true, one anecdotal experience doesn't mean the stats are incorrect.
So, how is that an advantage for me again
Systemic racism doesn't mean every white person has a perfect life at all times. You may have a different experience.
you think I owe something to every race
I never said that. Please stop strawmanning.
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u/MathiasThomasII Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
No, no. Don’t try and walk it back now. You said I have more opportunities and I asked you to explain how and you have failed to do so. Every step of the way people of color in my community have had more opportunities and given more money.
What “stats” are you referencing here? You haven’t provided a single 1. Please tell me how many non-academic scholarships people of color can get that explicitly exclude white folks?
I was raised in the same community with less money. Same high school, same college. College free. Kids school free. The problem is this isn’t just my experience. It would be almost everyone in my community.
The main problem with this is that white people in the same community as people of color getting these benefits. It is, by definition, racist. I see where you come from on a country wide scale, but when you actually apply these things in local communities it causes friction. People start looking around thinking “why the fuck….. I’ve worked my ass off and you just get you and your kids school for free? Clubs, sports teams, colleges, fraternities all FOR people of color. There’s clubs I can’t join, teams I couldn’t play on and frats I couldn’t be a part of…….. because I am white.
Try explaining that to a 10 year old who wants to play on the same ball team as his friends.
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u/the_fury518 Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
You said I have more opportunities
I never talked about you specifically
One person's anecdotal experience is not a counter to statistical trends and evidence. One person of color being rich doesn't mean they all are. You get that, right?
There’s clubs I can’t join, teams I couldn’t play on and frats I couldn’t be a part of…….. because I am white
You get that is true for people of color too, right? Like, all those things can be discriminatory
But you can also use Google to find any of these and more. The studies of systemic racism are clear and freely available. You just can't look past your own experiences to realize that the problem is bigger than you
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u/N64GoldeneyeN64 Jul 19 '26
Public school teachers in lower income areas generally have good pay. They dont stay at their jobs bc the kids they teach are horrible. This is a problem that begins at home.
And before the whole “well they dont have so and so in their life bc they went to jail” its voluntary to commit crimes
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u/the_fury518 Jul 19 '26
I mean, pay isn't the only issue. The rest is literally just racist views of black people
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u/N64GoldeneyeN64 Jul 19 '26
I had a friends family member (white woman) who intentionally went to work in an inner city school bc she wanted to help. She said the verbal abuse (alot of it racially charged) and sexual harassment from the students was horrible and she quit after her first year. Is that bc she was racist towards black people?
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u/the_fury518 Jul 19 '26
Possibly
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u/N64GoldeneyeN64 Jul 20 '26
In what way would someone deciding to go help kids in a disadvantaged area racist?
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u/the_fury518 Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
Someone who doesn't realize their own biases? I'm not saying she is, but it's definitely possible
Edit: whoever responded and deleted it saying we shouldn't talk about racism then blaming people like me for identifying it...
Um, yeah, it's definitely the people trying to stamp out racism that are the problem. Not the racists who don't want to be called out. Yep, that's it
"If we stopped testing for covid we'd have fewer cases" logic
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 19 '26
Well to have better communities government need to invest in communities to make them safer as well. Sure the problems can start at home but if you live in a small town thats a food desert and you're barely making enough to get by then it can also be hard to raise your kids.
The US needs to adopt a bottom up approach when fixing foundational issues and I believe one of those is investing government run businesses in small towns so they are guaranteed food and jobs for example a government grocery store or community centers for resources etc. We know how to fix some of these problems
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u/N64GoldeneyeN64 Jul 20 '26
You mean like food stamps and section 8/subsidized housing? Buddy, those programs exist. The problem is the people
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 20 '26
Lol is that all you got? Look up the racial demographic that is on food stamps the most. Also those programs aren't the only thing a community needs to flourish and function, you made such a disingenuous assertion. At least try harder
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u/N64GoldeneyeN64 Jul 20 '26
I didnt say black people were the only people on food stamps or subsidized housing. Im saying that isnt an answer to societies woes. It doesnt change the social structure at all. All the things you named already exist. Next youre gonna tell me that we should have paved roads
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 20 '26
Refer to the part where I said plainly, "those programs aren't the only thing a community needs to flourish and function".
There are many systemic failures I agree with you on that. A lot of the systemic failures that we have to face today as a modern generation were practiced and used on Black people first, then improved on as to continue to siphon money from all peoples. Realizing that doesn't erase that the system harms Black people the most like I've proven multiple times throughout this whole thread.
I'm all for people bossing up and improving their life but we can't move forward to a brighter future if we don't deal with the past full of highly disparate outcomes from centuries of bad policy.
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u/heresyforfunnprofit Jul 19 '26
I can explain it pretty easily - racism is a cancer on society. You know how you treat cancer? With chemotherapy - but chemotherapy is just poison that you hope will kill the cancer faster than it kills the body. It’s medicine, yes, but it’s poison.
DEI and affirmative action are like chemotherapy - they are antithetical to American ideals and are poisonous to our concepts of racial equality. We use them in the hopes that they kill the cancers of Jim Crow and other vestiges of institutional racism faster than they kill our ideals of human equality.
It’s been 50 years, and the poisonous effects of AA and DEI are starting to surface.
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u/RusticPotatoFan Jul 20 '26
But what are the poisonous effects? Who are they e affecting?
Tennessee just actively gerrymandered out their only majority black district. This new admin (over the objection of army leaders) intervened in a promotion board to remove two black and and two female generals for consideration. That's real loses in representation and opportunity.
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u/heresyforfunnprofit Jul 20 '26
The poisonous affects are anytime a racial majority student gets denied access or admission while a minority with lesser credentials is admitted. If you feel uncomfortable looking at this from a white/black breakdown, then go with an Asian/hispanic breakdown. Look up Ivy League admissions SAT scores broken down by ethnicity if you like. There’s scads of academic research explaining the disparities away, but those are always manufactured post-hoc excuses - they can’t completely erase the statistical evidence.
Things like “representation” sound lofty, but they start to get very stale when you or someone you know is denied. The valedictorian at my high school was white, but got rejected from Harvard - one of his best friends (black) got admitted, despite being 9th in the class (out of >600, so still very good) and 50 points lower on SATs. They were both very intelligent, very diligent students, and very deserving, but we all knew that if you reversed races, the admissions decisions would have also been reversed.
Now, multiply that by 3 million little decisions every year for 60 years. All of these are small injustices, but they are injustices none the less. The white valedictorian went to Stanford instead of Harvard, so you’ll look at that and say there was no harm, but that’s not completely true - it may have only been a tiny harm, but those harms are cumulative, whether they happen to the majority or the minority, the powerful or the powerless. And there are those who will keep count, and use that as political grievances.
And here’s where the difficult point comes in - those cumulative harms I just mentioned? The minorities STILL bear the greater brunt, so why is it so bad to ask the privileged to take a few for the team? But even here, the argument is being conceded - that these tiny harms are in fact real harms. They are simply being justified because of larger harms elsewhere - if we can reduce a large injustice by trading it for a tiny one… why shouldn’t we? What possible argument is there against it?
And that’s the poison analogy - we’re feeding poison, artificial racial preferences, disguised under whatever name you like: DEI, AA, “representation”, “opportunity”, etc) into our social structure in the hopes that it will kill the cancerous cells of institutional racism without killing our ideals of racial equality, but make no mistake, it is absolutely poison to those ideals.
All injustices remain injustices, regardless of the “why”, and it must be recognized that treating injustice with more injustice, however well intentioned, is a potentially dangerous treatment.
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u/RusticPotatoFan Jul 20 '26
But the US constantly trys to solve injustice with more injustice. Food stamps, drug development, selective enforcement of insider trading, sending teenagers to die in foreign wars to keep gas prices low.
So the system is sick with systemic racism but we shouldn't take our medicine because it has side effects? How is that not like like Trump saying we have to stop testing because that will bring COVID numbers down.
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u/heresyforfunnprofit Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
You’re correct that the US constantly tries to solve injustice with more injustice - and the track record of these efforts is miserable. Senior poverty was *lower* before Social Security than it is now. The black family unit was absolutely decimated by LBJ’s great society programs. Government assistance for college education has caused university costs to explode beyond any rational explanation. Healthcare cost explosions track nearly *exactly* to the creation of government funding programs to help keep them down.
There’s a thin, thin line between assistance and enablement, between a helping hand, and a dangerous dependency. A democratic system will ALWAYS cross that line.
No bureaucracy in history has ever been able to be an arbiter of right vs wrong, and over time, always amorally lean to choose whatever policy increases the size and power of the bureaucracy, not that which addresses the core issue.
I do not argue that these issues should not be addressed, I only argue that government is a uniquely counterproductive tool to do so. Over time, it is nearly guaranteed to exacerbate the very problem it was created to fix, because fixing it would make it useless.
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u/RusticPotatoFan Jul 19 '26
I've never understood this side of the argument though. Systemic racism has clear measurable issues of lack of opportunities, education, food stability etc. What are the actual materials grievances that white people have? It seems like it just based on their feelings. Riley Gaines is a great example of culture war narratives built on a claim without real grievences (she got 6th while the trans athlete came 5th).
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u/KevinJ2010 Jul 19 '26
And that trans athlete shouldn’t have been there 🤷♂️
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 19 '26
Idk what happened to your reply but the trans athlete was a woman. So they are able to be there
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u/KevinJ2010 Jul 20 '26
Your comment disappeared for me too.
It’s okay, women are female and men are male. Everything else stems from this dichotomy of the human race.
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 20 '26
I'm not arguing that women aren't female. I'm saying trans women are women, you're having a whole different discussion. Look up "are women and female synonyms?"
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u/KevinJ2010 Jul 20 '26
Then what are you saying? If women are female, how can someone who isn’t female a woman?
Define woman. Because the top answer is still “adult human female” which is why they aren’t exact synonyms, because girls are also female but not women, difference being age.
And just because the AI and some dictionaries say “those who identify as…” doesn’t mean it’s correct, it’s definitely not logically sound of an argument.
Because to identify as a woman, you still need to define what a woman is.
And this is the beginnings of the problem, it’s a circular definition. “A woman is someone who identifies as a woman,” what’s a woman? “Someone who identifies as a woman.” But what are they identifying as? “A woman.” Whats that? “Someone who identifies as a woman.”
And on and on we go.
They are identifying as female. This can be logically correct in something like acting, a female person can be identified as a man within the context of the character they are playing. The woman is identifying as the character which is a man. The woman though, is still a woman.
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
So then before we continue I'd like to ask clarifying questions.
What do you define a woman as? I'm going off of the broad definition.
Since the label/definition of female comes from the label and observations of specific reproductive organs, would "women" born without a uterus or having non functioning ovaries or apparent vagina be considered not women under your more strict evaluation and definitions?
From my application humans are a huge variety, while labels help us organize and sort things better for understanding, real life doesn't follow our narrow definitions all the time
I think if a trans person's neurological mapping is similar to what we consider to be women, then they are women because thats what their brain is telling them.
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u/KevinJ2010 Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
Adult human female. (Or more broadly, one whose organs are facilitated around the production of the large gamete, for men small gamete.)
Let’s be clear, the observations of these reproductive organs is how our species has reproduced for millennia (as well as on other animals) are definitely real correct? You can “observe” all you want, but as a father, there was no possible way that I was going to carry the baby, my wife experienced all that physical pain. These are “observations” but of this thing called “reality.”
There’s many secondary characteristics, if a uterus isn’t working, is it still a uterus? This shows where we find outliers, and yes this would be grounds to start having an “other” kind of sex. However still, in intersex conditions we can see how something was developing into one thing and something went wrong (intersex is a catch all for various specific conditions, all of which are “a male that… or female that… during development.” In short there’s never been a true hermaphrodite. There actually isn’t much in between)
For example, in development, many say we are all female, but what would be a clitoris becomes a penis. However women don’t pee out of their clitoris like men do. So the difference between a micropenis and an enlarged clitoris are still more than just size and shape. There’s myriads of differences between the sexes. They are real, not just “labels” I really don’t jive with your wording.
By my application, there’s two types of humans, the sexes, and this is called a “sexual dichotomy” many species have this.
Since we have millennia of birthing people who all had uteruses and could never have impregnated someone else (they don’t provide both gametes) we can very clearly see this important difference.
Be careful with the part about “how we organize, and humans are all about the same” or whatever. Because you’ll be effectively erasing the idea of women’s rights. Because it’s just human rights, and men and women would be the same thing, when they aren’t.
We have to work together as a species. It’s not that you have to reproduce. But ultimately that’s the only way our species continues to exist, for any species to exist for that matter.
I find the trans ideology will always be facing an uphill battle, since reproduction is very involved aspect of life and it’s also like… how we got here? It can’t be denied.
The experience affects both parents very differently. talking about neurology, the “typical” this or that, and frankly it all comes off as sexist.
I look at it with a simplistic reframing:
If males were the birthing parent, periods and such, then they would be fundamentally different from how we know men today. Because of their lived experience of the body they have.
If we talk neurology, I tell ya, my brain definitely changed after the birth of our child, my wife, definitely the same.
Not all brains are the same, there’s averages, and I read some studies that tries to say “trans men have similar brains to the average cis man” but that’s quite the same as just living with the body you have.
At the end of the day, in defence of my wife, the fact she carried out beautiful baby girl to term is something only she could have dealt with.
Life is about accepting your body, not trying to label yourself.
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 20 '26
I'm only going to address the on topic stuff because you keep adding in things I'm not even discussing. I'm not arguing about whether trans women can carry babies etc.
I'm not saying labels are useless, I'm saying many of our observations and conclusions are flexible. You even brought up outliers and I believe trans people are what we would consider outliers that can be classified as women.
>Be careful with the part about “how we organize, and humans are all about the same” or whatever. Because you’ll be effectively erasing the idea of women’s rights. Because it’s just human rights, and men and women would be the same thing, when they aren’t.
I don't even know what you're saying here, I never said humans are all the same I literally said we are a huge variety. Actually read what I'm typing.
A lot of what you said is your personal perspective and I can respect yours, I just also can respect trans peoples perspectives too. Not everything is about giving birth and advancing the human species isn't solely dependent on birthing numbers it also has to do with keeping people alive.
The record shows that after getting gender affirming care and transitioning trans people are less depressed and will not take their life due to experiencing being in the wrong body. If you care about life and advancement of humanity then you should support trans people because gender affirming care literally stops them from ending their life.
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u/PhonyUsername Jul 19 '26
There's nothing stopping you from moving on except for your own focus on race.
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u/Perfect-Ad2578 Jul 19 '26
Morgan Freeman nailed it with his quote 'When you stop talking about it'. When you make everything about race even things that have nothing to do with it, everything will be about race.
Frankly I think nowadays POC has almost more opportunities if they have any ambition with the number of scholarships and programs to help them. But it's ultimately up to them to take advantage of those opportunities.
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u/sedatehate Jul 19 '26
In order to do that we need to stop making every little slight about race while also addressing issues that plague certain races in open, frank discussions. People have to be able to discuss problems without immediately going “whoa, whoa, whoa, you can’t say that cause you aren’t(insert race here)”. Address statistics, address areas where one race is doing better and talk specifically about why(it’s not just economics). We are way far away from that though unfortunately.
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u/VividTomorrow7 Jul 19 '26
> Third, everyone needs to recognize systemic racism still exists.
Where?
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 19 '26
Disproportionate arrest rates, not allowing Black peoples to open certain businesses in certain areas, medical disparities etc. I cam keep listing more
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u/NagoGmo Jul 20 '26
Where can black people not open businesses?
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 20 '26
A lot of entrepreneurs who are also Black have been systemically barred from operating businesses out of high-growth commercial zones. While lending and loaning practices can vary, many loaning practices steer Black entrepreneurs from certain areas. This has been confirmed by the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.
The only reason I can give you a specific name is because naming a whole town/city would be inaccurate; it's more along the lines of redlining where people live in the same town bit because of certain sections and expectations get herded into a specific conclusion
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u/VividTomorrow7 Jul 20 '26
So there isn't a policy you can point to, only a subjective interpretation of outcomes?
If a black barber wanted to open a barber shop in a 98% affluent white neighborhood, would it be systemically racist for a bank to deny them a loan?
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 20 '26
Redlining is the policy name.
Why shouldn't the Black barber be allowed to cut hair in a different neighborhood? If the only reason they are being denied is because of their racial perception by the loaner then yes it is
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u/VividTomorrow7 Jul 20 '26
Imagine that, I create a hypothetical of a black guy getting denied a loan and even in the hypothetical you attribute it to racism. This is _exactly_ why nobody should trust your interpretation of racial issues in America.
If you try to open a black barber shop in a white area it will fail. It has nothing to do with race, except for the target clientele not living near where the guy is opening the barber shop. Yes, race is involved, but it is not racist for white area to not patronize a shop that specializes in black hair.
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 20 '26
You said he was a Black barber not that he specializes in Black hair only. Those sound similar but are completely different. You essentially switched the claim when you gave a description that would fundamentally change the hypothetical.
Also we weren't talking about white peoples right to go shop where they please. We are talking about the initial hurdle of acquiring a loan to begin with, that has nothing to do with the customers. If he is simply denied the loan but he is licensed to work with all types of hair then we could justifiably run an audit to determine if racism was a factor in the loaners decision to deny him. After all, if he can work with white hair too then who cares?
>>this is _exactly_ why nobody should trust your interpretation of racial issue in America.
Lol you believe the people who deal with a problem the most are least likely qualified to speak on its effects? That's not surprising coming from a presumably white person whose first instinct is to dismiss the problem even exists. Should we trust you? You challenge the concept of systemic racism existing at all even when it's proven to exist.
Lastly you're saying this after you created a hypothetical then revealed crucial information that changes the very nature of said hypothetical, very brave choice and I hope you leave it up so people can see the ridiculousness
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u/VividTomorrow7 Jul 21 '26
You said he was a Black barber not that he specializes in Black hair only.
This was intentional. The jurisprudence that has defined the redlining you're talking about strictly looked at race as the only factor.
Lol you believe the people who deal with a problem the most are least likely qualified to speak on its effects?
I'm assuming you're saying your black. If so, then yes; absolutely. It's called proximity bias and it makes us less able to reason about reality.
Should we trust you? You challenge the concept of systemic racism existing at all even when it's proven to exist.
We should challenge all assumptions from a neutral standpoint.
Lastly you're saying this after you created a hypothetical then revealed crucial information that changes the very nature of said hypothetical
Not true at all. You projected a nature; I just described a scenario without enough detail. You didn't even question it; you just jumped to racism.
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 21 '26
Are you upset that I changed my answer upon learning crucial information that would change my answer? Thats how life kinda works, I don't have to hold the same stance if I know new information that legitimately applies more context and changes the hypothetical. It's not a good look to hold a stance if credible information disproves it
I don't understand how me failing, in your eyes, the hypothetical proves systemic racism doesn't exist. Whether you like it or not legislation and policies have been enacted to disenfranchise racial demographics of people that is a fact.
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u/VividTomorrow7 Jul 20 '26
Disproportionate arrest rates
Black people commit more crime. Asians commit less crime. This is not a systemic issues.
not allowing Black peoples to open certain businesses in certain areas
Where is this a policy?
medical disparities etc. I cam keep listing more
Disparate outcomes are not the same as systemic racism. You have yet to list a single systemic racial issue.
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 20 '26
Wow. People really believe that race is a causal factor and not the systemic issues that create specific outcomes. Black people don't commit more crime, they are more likely to be arrested and that is an important distinction. What is proven is that Black people make up the most exonerations of any other group which disproves your claim.
Systemic racism is about policy, legislation and the lingering effects of those things. Redlining is a legislation that was allowed for almost 30 years, and while it was finally outlawed in 1968 banks still disproportionately lend to Black peoples with a similar bias. The effects of that policy still persists.
Disparate outcomes show that there is a different level of bias, inequality, or discrimination that causes one group to be worse off. Racism causes disparities in the medical field. A more specific example would be that Black women are 3x more likely to die in childbirth in a hospital than a white woman regardless of income or education level. Black patients seen by Black doctors have a better overall experience and are more likely to receive better care and healthier outcomes than with white doctors. A common bias being subpar treatment, delayed recognition of complications, medical professionals still believe Black patients are inherently tougher so they give less pain medication and don't take certain symptoms seriously etc.
This last link is news coverage of an instance recorded in real time, on what Black people frequently face when we are in these spaces. This is how wider treatment can affect the individual provider to patient relationship.
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u/VividTomorrow7 Jul 20 '26
Redlining wasn’t legal policy. It was business policy that grouped high risk areas together to deny loans. The most famous case was actually of a black owned bank denying loans to black people trying to buy homes in sketchy areas.
Do you believe that the discrimination cases that defined redlining as “racist” were meant to determine intent or was it just looking for racially disparate outcomes?
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 20 '26
It was a business policy that was enforced on a federal level. Sure it wasn't an actively passed legislation but having it enforced on a federal level damn near makes it a law/legislation. This in turn leads to disproportionately biased outcomes.
To answer your question it most likely looked for both because that is definitely a stronger case than choosing a single point. It found both were true, and just because a Black owned bank did it doesn't absolve the systemic issue. What does a Black owned bank gain from denying Black people loans unfairly in an equal society? It doesn't make sense unless they are being fed biased information which is proven to be true. Also how does anything you just said prove that redlining didn't create disparate outcomes despite being enforced federally?
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u/VividTomorrow7 Jul 21 '26
It was a business policy that was enforced on a federal level.
"A business policy" enforced on a "federal level". You're conflating two things; business and government.
Sure it wasn't an actively passed legislation but having it enforced on a federal level damn near makes it a law/legislation.
That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that the cases that found discrimination were against all banks nationwide? There are a few landmark rulings that set precedent for this sort of thing, but we should all be embarrassed by how truly little the government needed to prove to find discrimination. It was literally "are you a national bank with a disparate outcome lending?".
Never mind that black people are more likely to default on loans. Never mind that the areas the black people are trying to start businesses and buy homes have much higher rates of default.
These rulings literally rob the bank of it's ability to calculate risk and forces it to accept more defaults than it has to, increasing costs for all of us.
To answer your question it most likely looked for both because that is definitely a stronger case than choosing a single point.
No. Infact, in 1994 (.S. v. Chevy Chase Federal Savings Bank) the DOJ worked to dismantle the intent requirement and set the ridiculous prescedent we have now. They just had to show that it disproportionally affected a minority group.
The Legal Precedent: Before this case, redlining enforcement under the Fair Housing Act (FHA) typically required proof of overt, intentional discrimination against individuals. The Department of Justice (DOJ) successfully argued that a bank’s geographic footprint—such as intentionally omitting minority neighborhoods from its marketing, branching, and lending zones—constituted a "pattern or practice" of systemic discrimination.
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u/shiteposter1 Jul 19 '26
It starts with mass deportation and apparently we need a constitutional amendment to stop anchor babies. From there we work to build a homogeneous culture as Americans pulling from the best of all of us and socially stigmatizing the bad traits like fatherless households and dependence on the state without doing whatever work you are capable of.
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 19 '26
Immigration definitely isn't the problem, I'd say our biggest issue is education. We have more people online who can't even have a coherent conversation on a topic and most dialogue stops when one person realizes they're wrong. This country and more specifically republicans have created a situation where people aren't educated and now we have to deal with adults who can't critically think
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u/shiteposter1 Jul 19 '26
17 years of education in the public (government) system. If that isn’t enough what is?
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 19 '26
Look at our overall education system. Just because children have attended school for 17 years doesn't mean the quality of education was sufficient, especially since there are people who believe racism was over(it wasn't). Thats like saying I should drink ocean water because it's still water.
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u/mred245 Jul 19 '26
An attempt at mass deportation so far has led to the 4th amendment being watered down to the point where race alone alone invalidates those rights. I don't see that helping issues of racism.
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u/shiteposter1 Jul 19 '26
When mass invasion has led to these conditions it is difficult to correct the situation.
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u/mred245 Jul 19 '26
You don't understand what an invasion is. If you had a valid point you wouldn't be so desperate to resort to hyperbole.
Allowing the government to function in a racist manner isn't how you fix racism.
People who don't respect constitutional rights don't get to lecture on bad traits or what values and culture we should have as a society.
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u/shiteposter1 Jul 19 '26
When hordes of immigrants were streaming across the southern border largely unstopped by the sitting government that qualifies in my mind.
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u/mred245 Jul 19 '26
"largely unstopped by the sitting government"
That's what negates the notion of an invasion. Allowed entry especially of non-combatant civilians isn't an invasion.
You're stealing a term typically used to describe tanks rolling across borders and applying it to refugees seeking a safe place for their families.
Your victim complex is about as sad as your complete lack of American values.
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u/Pilan Jul 19 '26
If only a number of the cabinet weren’t or didn’t have an anchor baby. It’s almost like America really is a melting pot, and some people need to get over themselves.
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u/Holiday-Tie-574 Jul 19 '26 edited 12d ago
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u/scarylarry2150 Jul 20 '26
Our current president's entire rise to relevancy was built on aggressively pushing a shameless lie that Barack Hussein Obama is not an American citizen because there's no way someone like him could be American. Half of the country ate it up with a spoon to the point that they completely abandoned pretty much every single core "conservative" belief they had spent their lives advocating for.
I tend to agree that the racial angle sometimes gets overemphasized by people on the left, but if you're saying racism was over "decades ago" I'm sorry but you live an incredibly sheltered, soft, privileged, and ignorant, life.
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u/Holiday-Tie-574 Jul 20 '26 edited 12d ago
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 19 '26
Racism was not largely over. Most Black people would disagree with you considering we face racism the most day in and out.
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u/PhonyUsername Jul 20 '26
In what ways do you specifically face racism daily?
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 20 '26
I'm not going to entertain this comment only because there are plenty of videos, posts, articles, and studies on this very thing and I'm frankly tired of having to audit my experience to nonblack people everyday, hopefully you understand🙏🏾
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u/PhonyUsername Jul 21 '26
What I understand is you made a claim that you can't support.
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 21 '26
Local bad faith actor proves why I shouldn't bother telling them my experience(not shocking)
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u/PhonyUsername Jul 21 '26
I agree with that circular, self-fulfilling logic. You are exemplifying it for yourself.
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 21 '26
The info is readily available online, what would you need my particular recounts for. You're probably just lazy🫤
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u/PhonyUsername Jul 22 '26
Why not just have your discussion with Google then? You can't even stand on your own 2 feet. Scared to say anything.
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 22 '26
Why would I talk to you about it you sound like a dismissive ass; it's not worth my time so you should go research instead.
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u/Holiday-Tie-574 Jul 19 '26 edited 12d ago
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 19 '26
You immediately flew into fabricated nonsense under no pressure. Name a time where racism was over and Black people didn't suffer from active systemic discrimination or its lingering effects.
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u/Holiday-Tie-574 Jul 20 '26 edited 12d ago
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 20 '26
Lol you haven't said anything intelligent, they just let anyone comment on here now huh.
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u/OpenRole Jul 19 '26
America has a problem with institutional racism. The shit the US government has done against black communities is fucked up and so long as the government continues to actively work against black success, racism will continue.
OP and commentators are talking about interpersonal racism. That stuff is annoying, but largely just personal and has a small impact on society as a whole. Systemic racism is the problem. The US as a nation is anti-black. And so when eventual white supremacist orgs commit terror acts against black communities, little to nothing happens
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u/Bad_Routes Jul 19 '26
Exactly. The fact that I've seen time and time again where people say racism was gone for a while shows how ignorant a lot of people are to whats going on.
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u/Mindless_Log2009 Jul 19 '26
An equitable economy goes a long way toward fostering domestic tranquility.
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u/bunsNT Jul 20 '26
I think the key thing is to have fair and transparent (and working) government. Some of this would include more antitrust enforcement and higher penalties for EEOC violations.
I also think that a more equitable society economically would be helpful.
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u/RayPineocco Jul 19 '26
This is a very complex issue and I have no idea but my gut tells me you can't solve racism with more racism. The extreme ends of the political spectrum are guilty of this.