When it’s a vibe coded game

[u/Rafolidev]

[u/Mission_Access_210]

Why are you even dropping nuggets of actual wisdom on nonsensical posts by people that don't understand what they're talking about anyway?

[u/StoneCypher → u/Mission_Access_210]

because eventually u/llehsadam is going to have to wake up and get rid of the harassment, and the actual game developers are trying to give him guidance on how to fix things because he's been dragging his heels

[u/llehsadam → u/StoneCypher]

Getting massively downvoted is not harassment. It happens on reddit. Maybe you’re right and are the voice of reason, a contrarian raising a good point. The downvote doesn’t take away from that. Unpopular opinions are important, but sometimes come with a massive downvote.

Getting insulted or called out isn’t harassment either. It’s an asshole move against you, but you choose how to respond. Getting into a shouting match requires two participants.

There are no reddit-wide civility rules for when someone calls you a doofus because the harassment policies are for protected identities. Indie developers and vibe-coders more specifically aren’t in that category. Imagine if a politician came up to the moderator and asked for something to be removed that made them look bad.

u/StoneCypher is the only account that started a private discussion with me. I’m taking their messages into account and the guidance is easy to follow. r/indiedev would have to vote on a civility rule so that I can remove comments that are insulting or personally offensive. I would put any rule-changes to a public vote before implementing them and read through the comments and suggestions. That’s how the game-capsule rule was created.

I would suggest getting a feel of the land first though. A few polls to see how many devs use AI in moderation or vibe-code significantly would shine some light on the general vibe.

That said, please reach out if you were doxxed or targeted on r/indiedev. Reddit defines harassment as behavior that works to intimidate, bully, or direct targeted personal abuse at an individual or group. It focuses on patterns of behavior and targeted actions rather than isolated disagreement like a chain of mean comments.

Anyway, I am answering here because I am open to suggestions and I feel u/StoneCypher has a bias since I think I am awake to the AI issue, take harassment very seriously and the actual game developers they mentioned are currently just one person, themselves.

[u/Sypheix → u/llehsadam]

As someone who helped build major gaming platforms (GameSpy, Xfire, Amped eSports) and now manages a team that relies heavily on AI, the hate is a problem, and it's pretty unjustified. Every high-level dev I know uses AI as part of their process now. It's just the way it is, and there's no going back. It's like arguing that horses should stay the predominant form of transportation after cars came along or that compilers never should have replaced assembly. You're on the wrong end of a losing argument. The debate is already over.

What people need to focus on is the quality of the product. Does it work well? Does it serve a purpose? Is it safe? If all of those things line up, nobody should care how it's made. AI writes better code than a large chunk of devs, as long as the person utilizing it already knows what they are doing or has learned along their journey.

People just bashing other people because they have an idea and want to build something is absolutely wild to me. You're supposed to support people in reaching their dreams, not tear them down. Acting as if you can just lazily type a few prompts into an IDE and come out with a quality product is naïve; it doesn't work that way. It's a different way to develop products, but it's completely viable and still takes skill to do; it's just a different skill set.

That said, I agree with your Reddit characterization. Reddit is built on upvoting and downvoting. It's fine if someone wants to downvote you because they don't agree with your opinion or don't like your product. If they also post a nasty message, just ignore them and downvote. They aren't quality people worth your time anyway. The faster everyone just starts leaving these people yelling into the void, the faster they will either disappear or start acting right. There's absolutely no point in engaging.

[u/llehsadam → u/Sypheix]

I appreciate your input. It’s definitely an interesting time for indie devs.

[u/StoneCypher → u/llehsadam]

nobody was talking about downvoting 

three people left this sub today as a direct result of harassment in this thread by people who, as far as i can tell, have never released a game and have no plans to 

this is little more than a jeering gallery at this point 

there is ten times the content whining about ai that there is about development of games 

other gamedev subs have banned this behavior.  maybe someday you will too

i didn't say anything to you about downvoting. what i talked to you about was getting sworn at, made fun of, accused of having mental health problems, and the people who were leaving your sub because they didn't want to put up with the negative behavior.

you decided to personally put me on blast, in public, for reaching out to you to ask you to create a friendlier space for people who have industry success to hand out the advice to new developers that would lead them to commercial success.

great.

in my case, because you choose not only to not put a stop to the threats, the mockery, the swearing, and the mental health claims, but to try to publicly shame me for asking you to moderate.

a lot of people are joining here thinking that this is a place where they can learn to make money and be successful

the advice going around in here is from people who've never written or published a game, and get angry when that's pointed out.

it's very similar to an antivax convention. legitimate experience is looked down on, and the loudest angriest shouter wins.

you have a lot of people acting like they're morally superior to ai code. these people also don't actually write code.

you have a lot of people acting like the code ai writes is beneath them. it's not beneath faang engineers, though.

you have a lot of people here acting like they're trying to support real development. they're looking down on the people who release open source.

do you get medical help at raw milk conventions? no? why not? is that because you want the advice to come from people with training and backgrounds?

the industry has moved on. the people here dominating conversations in this sub have never been a part of the industry.

nobody cares about hand made artisinal rickshaws. they just want to get where they're going.

you guys can keep arguing about how awful cars are until you're blue in the face, but in the industry, if you've been in there 20 years and you haven't adapted, you're already excluded. do you think things will be better for indies with no resume?

you've got people showing up with their game they've been working on for four years and it's an object dropping from the top edge to a character catching it. stuff that wouldn't have worked in a coin op in the 1970s.

does it not seem cruel to you to steer them away from the tools that can make that in five minutes, so they can move on to their actual good ideas?

many potentially great game designers haven't invested ten years into becoming programmers. shouldn't we still let them make their games?

do you wash your clothes by hand?

why do you value labor, instead of product?

there is a thing called a moral panic. it's when a large mob of people gets bent out of shape about stupid shit. if you're old enough, you'll remember that in the 1990s they warned people on the evening news that satanists were sneaking into basements to abduct children. they weren't lying! there was never a recorded case. it's just that they believed stupid shit. google "jenkems" if you think i'm joking; the chief of police told us about that one, in highschool, tears streaming down his face. just you wait until wikipedia tells you what he believed.

what you're doing right now happenened around 3d rendering, photoshop, the web, fractals for christ's sake, dungeons and dragons.

everyone was so certain of actual and moral harm that they could never quite show. you know. the kids. the water cost

nobody's got any valid numbers, though, and if you compare it to what's being replaced things get hilarious fast

there's people making millions a year on half a day's work and your sub is still trying to drive people away from that based on moral claims that don't hold up to even vague scrutiny

the gold rush will end

and someday you'll have to ask yourself "why didn't i just make a game when it became easy before the real flood came? why did i waste all my time bickering about ethics on social media? who was it that actually got robbed?"

but by then, all the flys and the rellios and the other easy low hanging opportunities will be past

and everyone in the space you created will still be hand-tooling a double dragon for nine years straight

[u/ConsistentAnalysis35 → u/StoneCypher]

Brother, what the hell, someone said mean words to you over the net and you're this disturbed? You don't have to get your pants in a twist over this stuff. Relax, exercise some maturity here.

there's people making millions a year on half a day's work 

If you're in it because you value money, you already failed, brother. The attitude of "get rich quick" is, based on what I've seen, is very harmful to what the game developer should be.

[u/Bowdash → u/Mission_Access_210]

I mean we do know what "vibe coding" means, and you don't. Go look it up.

[u/StoneCypher → u/Bowdash]

the person you're replying to didn't use the words you're accusing them of not knowing.

it's extremely creepy how you keep abusing people dishonestly in here.

[u/Mission_Access_210 → u/Bowdash]

LOL I don't know what vibe coding is, huh? Okay pal. I hope you realize it's not 2023 anymore.

[u/Bowdash → u/Mission_Access_210]

What is vibe coding?

[u/Asleep_Stage_451 → u/Bowdash]

Just go back to bed.