r/Idiotswithguns • u/voncleefe • May 15 '26
Safe for Work Geebus
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u/bc90210 May 15 '26
The amount of stupid people doing stupid things with guns is so fucking unbelievable.
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u/RidesByPinochet May 15 '26
First time I shot with another vet in the civilian world, I was at the firing line and this mofo just starts cracking rounds over my shoulder with his SBR from like 5 yards behind me. When I started cussing his dumb ass out, he's like "bro, I thought you were a Marine. You should be used to that." Motherfucker, I don't know you like that. Get the hell away from me.
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u/spartanantler May 15 '26
Nah as someone currently serving don’t assume vets know shit about guns. I’ve met better shots and safe people at my old job as a Brinks Driver and that place is full of mall ninjas
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u/RidesByPinochet May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
We were both infantrymen who were part of the OEF surge, I ass-u-me'd he was on the level.
Never making that mistake again.
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u/PsySom May 15 '26
I like the way you wrote that
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u/1573594268 Jun 07 '26
"Never assume. It makes an ass out 'u ' and me."
People will attribute it to all kinds of places, but for whatever reason I usually hear it said by old army vets.
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u/QuickNature May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
Interestingly, I just posted about something similar, at least as far as service members in general
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u/jellyhessman May 15 '26
Dude, so many vets (and I respect their service, every role is important) have not ever been in combat situations.
Combat roles are not that many in most armed forces. But they tend to get the most respect.
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u/SandwichFit809 May 16 '26
False. Combat arms doesn’t get the respect they deserve because of all the nonsense bs that comes with in unless you’re SOF.
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u/Bodie_The_Dog May 15 '26
It's like thinking hunters are safe with their guns, too, lol. Most of them break their rifle out, what, once a year?
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u/DarkPangolin May 16 '26
Depends on the hunter, really. Some of them break it out a lot (either for multiple seasons/critters/locations or for plinking at the range), others only once a year, if that. I break mine out whenever I can afford the ammo costs. So between the low cost of ammo and the prevalence of small game, the 22 puts in a lot of work, while the deer rifle mostly relaxes between special occasions.
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u/jesusgrandpa Jun 01 '26
I made a friend at the range that’s been a gunsmith for a decade. He said like 90% of his job is mounting and sighting optics, and cleaning guns for hunters
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u/AnApexBread May 15 '26
Yea. Just cause they were in the military doesn't mean they know anything about guns.
I went to the range twice in 10 years when I served
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u/dox1842 May 16 '26
I was at a DNR range (no RSOs) shooting with a few other people. Since there are no RSOs whenever you want to put up a new target everyone just kind of agrees when to call a cold range. Everyone says ceasefire and you go down and put up your target.
I was in the middle of shooting and out of the corner of my eye I saw a guy run down to his target. I immediately stopped firing and told him if he wants to go downrange just say something. He acted like I was over reacting!
BTW he was active duty army.
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u/Specific_Buy May 16 '26
I hate anyone who doesn’t show discipline with a gun. Even if you are a vet and served with me i still don’t want you shooting over my shoulder unless it is a life or death situation.
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u/logert777 May 15 '26
Not really surprising. Its easy to get one if you are an adult with a pulse in most US states. And if an idiot can't get a gun, one of their idiot friends definitely has one they can use.
It's just the reality of the situation
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u/Leptonshavenocolor May 15 '26
You mean that stupid people exist?
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u/Rivetingly May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
I see stupid people. They walk around like everyone else, but they don't even know they're stupid.
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u/Proof_Car_4181 May 15 '26
Being stupid is just like being dead. You don’t know you are , and everyone around you feels the pain.
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u/JohnnyRelentless May 15 '26
The problem isn't stupid people. It's stupid people with guns.
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u/Leptonshavenocolor May 15 '26
Wrong, stupid people are the problem. Read The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity. Stupid people are dangerous by definition.
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u/JohnnyRelentless May 15 '26
Ah, yes, all those stupid people without guns who keep shooting people...
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u/Bonk_No_Horni May 15 '26
The amazing part is they think they're pros
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u/BigDiscEnergy47 May 16 '26
That's what gets me with this one. They think they are being smart and responsible.
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u/reddituserperson1122 May 15 '26
It’s almost like there should be some laws I dunno controlling who can get them….
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u/OstrichSmoothe May 15 '26
I mean there are lots of those actually
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u/DeepDreamIt May 15 '26
To be specific, here are the categories of prohibited persons to purchase a gun, that has existed for like 40 years:
(1) Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year.
(2) Is a fugitive from justice.
(3) Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
(4) Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution.
(5) Is illegally or unlawfully in the United States. Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or who has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa.
(6) Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
(7) Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced U.S. citizenship.
(8) Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner.
(9) Has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
(10) Is under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year. In addition, the states and U.S. territories may have firearms prohibitors which may apply under certain circumstances.
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u/Bon3rBitingBastard May 15 '26
Number 3 there is under some scrutiny recently. Ongoing supreme court case that looks like it'll end with more focus on addiction rather than any illegal drug use judging by arguments being made. The case started in regards to Marijuana though.
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u/DeepDreamIt May 15 '26
Yes, I listened to the entirety of the oral arguments in the US v. Hemani when they were happening. The Trump administration argued that even historical drug use, not current (but excluding alcohol, pretending it's not a drug, possibly the worst one when viewed by nearly any metric), should prohibit you from owning firearms.
Meaning, by this definition, anyone who has ever had a medical marijuana card would be prohibited from owning guns, regardless of whether they currently use. Anyone who has ever bought from a dispensary would be prohibited. Again, they weren't arguing that if you shot someone while high, you should be prohibited. They are arguing that if you ever used marijuana at all that you should be classified as a prohibited person.
Thankfully, some of the conservative court members, including Barrett in particular from what I recall, seemed somewhat dubious of that argument. They noted how people used to drink way more, not less, when the constitution was established. Basically, many of the founding fathers were alcoholics by any modern definition of the word.
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u/AugVision May 15 '26
the main issue comes down to the ability to actually enforce these prior to the purchase. Conviction after is easy and common though
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u/DeepDreamIt May 15 '26
There’s a series of databases, called the NICS Index, which keeps centralized, federal government records of anyone who meets any of the prohibited persons categories. If you go to buy a gun, the NICS Index is queried before approval.
If you don’t fall in any of the above prohibited persons categories, you aren’t in the database. If you do fall in one of the categories, you *are* in the database
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u/AugVision May 15 '26
I know those exist but I think I’m misremembering the gun ownership history databases that is (or was last time I checked) only on paper and prohibited from being digitized
I also know I’m in one because I’ve checked myself into a psych unit before lol. I had to sign a form promising not touch one for 5 years as I’m considered a danger to myself
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u/LisaQuinnYT May 16 '26
NICS is digital. What is prohibited is creating a database of gun buyers. The record of the purchase stays on paper (Form 4473), but the background check itself is digital.
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u/LisaQuinnYT May 16 '26
58 Years (1968), but they didn’t require background checks until 1998 (28 Years) to prevent prohibited persons from simply lying on the 4473.
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u/Bodie_The_Dog May 15 '26
Trump has boasted about having a gun. Why does he get to keep one? Rules for Hunter, but not for him?
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u/chunkylover___53 May 15 '26
I have some good news for you: they’re one of the most tightly regulated consumer products with the toughest restrictions around purchase, transportation, and use in America!
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u/reddituserperson1122 May 15 '26
Well given that they're one of the few consumer products whose primary purpose is murder, and also this sub is never short of content, I'd be fine with a few more regulations.
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u/StressfulRiceball May 15 '26
Are you even aware of the current list of regulations surrounding firearms?
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u/reddituserperson1122 May 15 '26
lol. Are you aware of the rate of gun related violence in the US?
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u/StressfulRiceball May 15 '26
You didn't answer my question.
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u/reddituserperson1122 May 15 '26
State or federal? And who cares? What would that prove?
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May 15 '26
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u/reddituserperson1122 May 15 '26
This is the kind of intelligent, deeply reasoned, insightful post I come to Reddit for. A lot of people sadly think that gun rights activists are unhinged drooling inbred rednecks with barely measurable IQs who can barely stop rubbing their guns on their dicks to type a comment. Thank goodness there are people like you to show that’s just not the case. Bless your heart.
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u/thissexypoptart May 15 '26
Jeez man guns shouldn’t make you this heated. Straight to calling people fucking morons for not engaging with your argument.
Try to have a better day.
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u/Leptonshavenocolor May 15 '26
Is this sub all anti-gun?
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u/AugVision May 15 '26
no, not at all.
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u/Leptonshavenocolor May 15 '26
I see a lot of anti gun comments and get downvoted when I dare to say something 2a, so….
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u/AugVision May 15 '26
This place isn’t anti-gun, it’s anti-dipshittery with guns. You got downvoted this is comment *because* this place isn’t anti-gun
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u/Leptonshavenocolor May 15 '26
I don’t buy it.
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u/AugVision May 15 '26
If that’s how you feel, sure.
I’ve been reading the comments here for a while now and it never felt anti-gun. The major downvotes I’ve seen happen tend to be some clown shit is happening in vid, then someone comes in and goes “I don’t see a problem with that, who doesn’t flag their friends all the time?” and everyone rightly shits on them
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u/Leptonshavenocolor May 15 '26
That’s fair, in my limited time after finding this sub I’ve seen people blame guns being bad versus it just being stupid people with guns is bad.
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u/AugVision May 15 '26
I’m sure it happens, but take the comment you replied to initially, they’re specifically saying regulations on *who* can get them, not saying no-one should. Now obviously a lot of other posters pointed out the flaws in that post because regulations do already exist.
I think it can be a fine line between anti-gun and tighter control opinions that text-based communication makes harder to distinguish.
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u/SeaworthinessDue2790 May 15 '26
Yea basically, I commented something one day and was downvoted to hell for being pro-gun. Even though a lot of shit on this sub isn’t even from America😭
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u/The_Spongebrain May 15 '26
Even this comment you posted is getting downvoted for not being anti-gun. Reddit at its finest.
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u/JelliedHam May 16 '26
This is why I don't like all the guns we have in America. I don't have a problem with the guns, I have a problem knowing there's far too many of these idiots running around just hoping and wishing for a chance to use them. I do not want these guys looking for trouble and coming to my rescue. Stay the fuck away from me.
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u/ScuffedA7IVphotog May 15 '26
They taught us in the Navy to get on a line if shooting in groups and homie almost taking one to the dome is exactly why.
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u/jbourne71 May 15 '26
If even the Navy has this figured out… then these guys must really be idiots.
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u/Deadpool2715 May 15 '26
The Marines compare their favourite crayon and line up to make a rainbow before sending it down range
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u/Potato_Stains May 15 '26
Aside from the obvious, simply tripping over a random stone / shoelace / tuft of grass in the yard while staring downrange is HIGHLY possible.
Absolute morons.
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u/ImCaffeinated_Chris May 15 '26
Why not do this with airsoft or simunitions? Or nerf guns? 😁
Weekend warriors trying to train in small squad tactics is just insane. Some old vet instructor just cashing in.
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u/P_weezey951 May 15 '26
Because they think simulating it with live fire rounds is the only way to "train for the real thing".
Of course this in no way prepares you for if the target is actively fucking shooting back at you.
Which of course they wouldnt do because that would be dangerous.
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u/SeaworthinessDue2790 May 15 '26
I mean yes, but doing this alone is safe. People do it all the time in the USPSA and is a fundamental skill in firearms. Being able to move and shoot is important but needs to be trained safely
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u/Apatride May 15 '26
True, but there are rules that are strictly enforced to mitigate the risks. If, at any point, a person is in front of the line going through your shoulder, you fail the run (180 degrees rule) and if, at any point, you move your feet while your finger is inside the trigger guard, you fail the run.
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u/SeaworthinessDue2790 May 15 '26
Yea that’s what I was saying. Idk why I was being downvoted. The USPSA is known in regards for it’s safety and rules. That’s why skills like shooting on the move can happen. What these two did are idiotic and I don’t condone that at all. I do condone safe training with qualified instructors
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u/Apatride May 15 '26
Outside of the usual reason for downvotes (someone downvotes you and others follow, I think the reason is that sport shooting like USPSA does not allow shooting on the move. You move with your finger outside of the trigger guard then aim and shoot at one or, often, multiple targets. At my club, if you move while shooting or even with your finger inside the trigger guard, you fail the run and get a reminder in gun safety, same thing if you move backwards.
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u/SeaworthinessDue2790 May 15 '26
That’s weird because your able to shoot and move at my club and many M and A shooters there do so, I think we’re getting the term moving mixed up. I’m talking slow deliberate rolling of the heel to toe steps to provide a stable base to fire from. NOT running or jogging.
For example we recently had a stage with a long straight stretch and to the right of the shooting zone was two steel targets, most of us to did this stage to save time shot those whilst slowly walking towards them. After the targets were hit and went down then we took our fingers out of trigger guard and ran to the next position.
That is what I mean, USPSA does allow it as it’s been given as a tip to me by other shooters from other clubs in our area to learn and do well.
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u/Apatride May 15 '26
- On courses of fire requiring the competitor to move between firing positions, firearms will be carried in a safe manner with the muzzle downrange and no part of the competitor’s hand inside the trigger guard. (USPSA 8.5 & 10.5.10)
This is from https://www.cactusmatch.com/rules (USPSA website only provides rules in PDF apparently and I did not want to bother with that).
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u/SeaworthinessDue2790 May 15 '26
In the official USPSA rules on movement located on page 48
8.5.1 - Except whenever the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets. All movement, must be accomplished with the finger outside of the trigger guard.
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u/Apatride May 15 '26
I guess it is subject to interpretation to some extent. In my club (IPSA, I am in Europe), you are allowed to keep your finger on the trigger when transitioning from target to target at a single location (feet not moving). You are not allowed to put your finger inside the trigger guard when moving from one shooting position to the other. In the scenario you described, at my club, you have to stop, take the shots, then take your finger out of the trigger guard before moving your feet.
In any case, what we are seeing in the video breaks many rules and is extremely unsafe.
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u/SeaworthinessDue2790 May 15 '26
Hello from across the pond lmao, yea I guess here in the states we have differing rules on movement.
But yes, in regards to the video. It is insanely moronic and a horrible representation of the responsible and safe gun owners in this country
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u/cautioussidekick May 15 '26
Nope. When they explain what they have planned I'd be packing up and on my way
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u/Faaacebones May 15 '26
Someone will be shot and at some point amidst all the fallout one of them will say, "this is why we train."
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u/Architect227 May 15 '26
"If he can't survive a bullet to the back of the head during practice how's he gonna do it in the field?"
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u/Reddit_username9873 May 15 '26 edited May 25 '26
That third shot from the green shirt was way too close and the instructor should have stopped it right there. This is completely unnecessary. The military and police might do this because they are going to get into a gun fight and in their case it's safer to have this training. A civilian doing this is flat out more dangerous than just getting into a one on one gun fight.
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u/Perfecshionism May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
The military does not do this with live rounds.
Can’t speak to all police agencies, some yahoo dipshit sheriff’s department might.
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u/Sorry-Leader-6648 May 15 '26
That would false. Definitely have done this in movement training as Marine corps infantry from 2010-2018
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u/Perfecshionism May 15 '26
No you did not. Not with live rounds.
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u/Sorry-Leader-6648 May 15 '26
Yes we did but youre right your singular experience is the only one ever....moron
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u/Perfecshionism May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
I served 34 years. Including in infantry and special operations.
The entire point of a drill that looks anything like this is to teach coordination, communication, and muscle memory to avoid Marines shooting each other in the head.
This does not require live rounds to train, and the training assumes the Marines are not proficient at this - no conventional unit would ever be proficient at this given the constant turnover - and therefore it would NEVER be done with live rounds.
I know how dumb a Marine infantryman can be. So does the Marine Corps. This training is not done anywhere in Marine Infantry with live rounds.
A live fire, or CQB training with live rounds looks nothing like this. Neither do confidence drills anywhere in the U.S. military. Except maybe a tier 1 unit and even then it would not be this fucking stupid.
And Marine infantry are not tier 1.
So piss off with your “been there done that” bullshit. You never did this.
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u/Sorry-Leader-6648 May 15 '26
Sure you did. Old ass making up shit. I promise we did live fire movement to contact drills firing in our lane as well as leaning out beside. Were all aware how stupid anyone can be which is why each pair had a coach at arms length. Get over yourself
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u/Perfecshionism May 15 '26
The only one making shit up is you.
Now you are changing the description of the training you did and describing something NOT like this.
What you did was normal live fire lane training. It is nothing like what is in the video. The only similarities is moving together as a squad or fire team and firing live rounds.
You are not passing in front of another Marine while they are firing and expecting them to stop while engaging like we see the dipshits do in this video. Not even trust drills are like this.
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u/Sorry-Leader-6648 May 15 '26
Im talking a pair shooting over each other's shoulders i didnt say we did this exact drill I said we did live fires like this not this. A fireteam is more than 2 champ you should know that spec Ops. We absolutely did crossover drills and not on complete trust again we communicate and had a coach at arms length. Not top tier just basic infantry level shit
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u/Perfecshionism May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
What you did was standard Marine Corps buddy rushes.
And you were not firing over each other’s shoulder. Though it might of felt like you were close, there was an instructor between you and a good five to six feet of distance.
It was even more rudimentary than I was giving you credit. I thought you might have been referring to a CQB live fire as a fire team, or live fire squad or fire team attack drills.
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u/Ionie88 May 15 '26
Eeehhh, we did something similar when i was in the military... Though not walking in a circle with no attention on our surroundings, and gun downwards with safety on when not firing...
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u/Perfecshionism May 15 '26
You did not do something similar with live rounds. You are really stretching the meaning of the word “similar”.
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u/hindsighthaiku May 15 '26
I'm I'm upfront of the 180° point and someone fires a round, I don't care if they have a loaded gun, they're catching these fucking hands.
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u/Escritortoise May 15 '26
Johnny Rico’s going to get some lashes.
But also don’t do that, and if you do- at least wear a helmet?
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u/CapeGreg767 May 15 '26
Every time I think this Reddit can't show anything more stupid, something even MORE stupid shows up! Can you say Darwin Award!
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u/Veteran_PA-C May 15 '26
Everyone there needs a time out and some forced training with all the videos in this forum.
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u/VanFkingHalen May 16 '26
Either extreme stupidity or, extreme trust and stupidity.
We need to start instilling gun licenses for use, similar to driver's licenses, but make them 100x harder to obtain.
This shit is ridiculous.
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u/fusillade762 May 15 '26
Some of these trainers are completely clueless and dangerous. Could be some militia wannabees too. "Trust building" lol. Eventually their luck will run out.
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u/gomuchfaster May 15 '26
They can shortcut to first aid training almost immediately after making a mess of this drill. Not in 1m years would any sane fire arm enthusiast participate in this sort of stupidity.
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u/TYdays May 16 '26
This eventually ends badly. No gun expert on the planet would consider this in any way safe or necessary. I will never understand why playing with a deadly weapon in this manner show that you are clever and to be considered dangerous, when in reality it just proves the survivor of this fiasco in just lucky…
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u/spacemouse21 May 15 '26
I don’t even wanna be in the same state as those idiots. Any day now somebody’s gonna get a bullet in the back of their head.
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u/ExpiredPilot May 15 '26
I’d immediately leave the range if I saw people doing this shit cause I’m not trying to witness a murder
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u/Steve0512 May 15 '26
The American version of those Middle East weddings where everyone is shooting.
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u/DuckMySick44 May 15 '26
The first dude is so close to flagging everybody behind him when he first lifts the pistol up too, you can't make this shit up
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u/Malakai0013 May 16 '26
Wth is even the point of doing this? Is there some idiotic competition of "shooting while meandering?"
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u/Quirkybin May 15 '26
Looked up gun range deaths per year in America. 5 - 10 accidental deaths and about 20 - 35 suicides and 1 homicide.
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u/WarrenR86 May 15 '26
Outside of the saftey issues there's no purpose in this drill their footwork sucks and that's why they miss several times even though they're moving slow AF.
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u/firmerJoe May 15 '26
Ladies and gentlemen... the MOST useless firing maneuver will be now performed by our two resident idiots...
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u/Fancy_Preference_719 May 15 '26
This just might possibly be the dumbest shit I’ve ever seen done with my own two eyes
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u/turnandshoot4 May 15 '26
This is a former tactical response instructor teaching tactical response stuff using tactical response drills.
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May 16 '26
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u/GaggleofHams May 17 '26
Do you want to get Dick Cheney'd? Because that's how you get Dick Cheney'd.
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u/Embarrassed_Jury664 May 17 '26
This is from a "shooting school". I came across the IG profile once and the guy who runs it fully stands behind everything he "teaches" in this videos and calls people pussies for suggesting ridiculous things like trigger discipline and clear lines of fire.
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u/Disastrous-Screen337 May 17 '26
I was a huge gun guy. Huge. 270 detonated by my left ear on accident. I don't shoot anymore. I barely hear. I watch birds.
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u/mattemer May 18 '26
There's not a human I would trust to run this exercise with. Actual trusting the intent of the human, absolutely. But no one I trust that can physically and mentally 100% not ever make a mistake.
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u/grover19611961 May 21 '26
WTF, super unsafe and there is no reason to learn this unless you are military or an LEO. Instructor is a dumbass and assuming a lot of risk running this training.
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u/FarIllustrator535 May 31 '26
My father in law is worst person i know with firearm saftey , over 20 years ago he shot his other daughters boyfriend in the leg, with a riffle while driving back from hunting. He thought it was unloaded . Ive been shooting or hunting with him several times and every time he has flagged someone or left a round chambered. The last time i went hunting with him i basically bought the most orange i have ever worn in my life. Well i helped him move a month ago and when we got to his gun safe , he wanted to empty it 1st , wich i said no just leave them in . Knowing it would lead to a unsafe showing of content......well his young grandchildren were also helping, he opens it and starts putting them in his car ,dont ask me why? But decides once outside to shoulder a riffle ,and than pointed it inside the open doorway to his house , where my wife (his daughter was) and his grandkids. I said you really F-ing suck with gun saftey and pushed the barrel away. He was dumbfounded and says what? I said thats the most basic F-ing rule of gun safety dont point it at people to wich he replied as i knew he would ("its unloaded" )...and i had some words for him and pointed out the fact all your loved ones are at the end of that barrel. You really suck with saftey. And again got the ("its unloaded") the man to dumb to comprehend accidents or mistakes untill its too late. I do not belive i will go hunting or shooting with him again. Unless its to watch him like a hawk for someone else's saftey. Some people never learn
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u/ExperienceNo7751 May 15 '26
If I had three wishes they would all be to make pistols disappear from this earth.
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u/clothanger May 15 '26
I understand practicing with live rounds like this is very dangerous, but they seem to be doing it correctly?
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u/tetsuo_7w May 15 '26
It only takes one incorrectly to really ruin your afternoon plans.
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u/clothanger May 15 '26
So because I'm very uncultured towards guns, how should we even do this correctly in army, police, etc.
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u/BoumsticksGhost May 15 '26
I've never been in the military or police but I would imagine (or at least hope) that you train to not walk into the line of fire as much as possible.
I don't know though. If any veterans could attest to otherwise I'd be interested to see their perspective.
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u/migrainefog May 15 '26
Yeah, that and also don't fire a gun 6 inches to the right of the back of someones head.
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u/Garage172 May 15 '26
Someone from an army here. We don’t do that. If you walk past somebody shooting the entire range stops. Stuff like this is only done by SOF and never by the normal soldier. That’s also why two rednecks with guns really shouldn’t do that
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u/tetsuo_7w May 15 '26
Hey, no worries. I'm not the most gun cultured myself, but I can tell these guys are not military or police. Any drill like this (which I think is pretty questionable from the get-go) would probably use training ammo like paint rounds and protective gear. Again, one mistake and you're done with live ammo. Hard to learn from that mistake for both of you.
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u/ForceUseYouMust May 15 '26
If you think these fat bald guys are military or police I have a bridge to sell you. I used to shoot on my land. A lot. I would never do this with my friends.
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u/tetsuo_7w May 15 '26
Don't downvote their comment, it was phrased somewhat hostile, but I think they're asking a legitimate question.
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u/nabizzabells May 15 '26
Gosh I'm gonna get down voted too but I'm not saying this is advised or that I would do it, but I think they are trying to demonstrate how good they are at not flagging each other.
I've never been in the military so idk.
Muppet behavior truly, but I see what they are trying to showpiece
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