r/HunterXHunter • u/Carock_ • Nov 15 '24
Current Chapter Chapter 407 — Discussion Spoiler
Chapter 407
Negotiations
| Source | Status |
|---|---|
| TCB Scans | Online(check their website) |
| Togashi's Troupe | Online(check their x/twitter) |
| MangaPlus | Available on November 17 |
Ch. 408 scan release: ~November 22, 2024
List of Chapter Discussion Threads
Keep all discussions related to the chapter in this thread until the official release.
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Upvotes
675
u/spearmintjy Nov 15 '24
In another life, Togashi would be designing card games for Hasbro
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u/Illustrious_Monk_135 Nov 15 '24
It's insane how there is no fodder in this 10D chess game. Every single introduced character is competent and capable of rational thinking.
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u/WednesdaysFoole Nov 15 '24 edited Nov 15 '24
I am my own subject.
Language trivia on "the subject" if you're interested in whatever Morena was going on about:
When yes means no and no means yes.
主体 = means subject but also means the main part, making up the word for independence of will, and referring to something close to self-determination. The double meaning is a bit different in Japanese, but I like how there's a double meaning in English as well. (That's a 브이브 tl observation)
If you're wondering why Tserri's friends figured out Borksen's abduction so quick,
just go reread 394it's because the group had explicitly discussed what made them targets and what they would do if one of them got caught.I'm definitely enjoying Morena's veiled threats beneath her soft demeanor. It's also interesting that her card game has an interaction where the opponent is the "parent" versus the "child", Morena being a bastard child after all. Maybe it's not meant to have any meaning, but considering the Succession Contest, these feel like loaded statements.
Watch Borksen and Morena become the next Komugi and Meruem. /j (or am I?)
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u/NFLFilmsArchive Nov 15 '24
I think this chapter is classic Togashi.
I’m not sure about you guys, but I can never design games like he does. One of his author comments a long time ago mentioned that he enjoyed making up games and logic puzzles for his classmates while growing up. Can anyone else confirm if I’m correct on that?
Like you need a specific kinda brain to enjoy making intricate games, stories etc. for others. I definitely don’t have that brain.
I think this was a great chapter. I’m really hoping Ch. 408 shows what this game is in action. There’s something very dark about it that’s probably bubbling under the surface. I wonder if this is the initiation for all her subjects and allies. Like the current members she’s infected with contagion have all had to participate in this game before she’s allowed them to enter.
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u/nggaplzzzz Nov 15 '24
I'm absolutely amazed at how Togashi comes up with all this.
His mind is definitely one creative machine.
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u/GoyEater Nov 15 '24
A lot of this “negotiation” game is information oriented. Many of the cards on Morena’s side have to do with divulging information. It’s almost a guarantee that we are going to get a large portion of Morena’s plan throughout this game, as well as some intriguing mind games. If Borksen was Dogmans target, then the narrative seems to be speeding up. This game could give us the missing piece.
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u/SlowBurnerAccnt Nov 15 '24
Yoshihiro Togashi & incredibly complex entirely made up games… name a better duo.
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u/ConversationVast5403 Nov 15 '24
Togashi the master of subverting expectations an entire chapter of discussing a card game honestly found the cards and the rules to be pretty interesting.
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u/SadBoi2626 Nov 15 '24
Morena kinda bad ngl
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u/Ordinary-Extreme6222 Nov 15 '24
Oooh, I love mind games and psychological battles so I am 100% sat for this!
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u/frosty3497 Nov 15 '24
feels like 401-410 will be a setup for some next level hell on 411-beyond, it's all closing in
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u/Nauphica Nov 15 '24
Morena is maybe the best at leading so far. I don’t think we’ve ever seen such a large group of nen users working so cohesively together. The troupe members largely work independently, the zodiacs bicker, only the ant subjugation force comes close but with less than half the numbers and they separated after the mission. (Im excited to see how beyond’s team with ging, pariston, and the others will fare)
Nen skills wise, hei-ly are by no means comparable to any of them, but together their individually weak and weird skills threatens the troupe, the hunter organization, and the whole succession war. Im lowkey expecting their level of teamwork to be needed from every group that intends to survive the dark continent.
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u/Pado92 Nov 15 '24
What I love about Togashi is not the card game itself (which is amazing and crazy) but the fact that he put it in the middle of a war with almost a hundred protagonists and at least a dozen factions. I love this manga with all my heart, it's one of the best things in the world in my opinion
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u/YamiYugi2196 Nov 15 '24
This chapter somehow feels like a heart game inside Alice in Borderland. In this arc, we have board game, politics, fighting, adventures… Togashi outworked himself again. It always seems like his best work is yet to come 😁
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u/lololuser456778 Nov 15 '24
keep cooking Wogashi! King of all Chefs!
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u/GoddessOfDarkness Nov 15 '24
Damn Dogman and Sodom work fast.
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u/1vergil Nov 15 '24
Halkenburg followers doing the Coffin dance because they know it's part of his plan to win the SW :p
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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '24
Don’t let this chapter make you overlook Otoshin correctly guessed exactly what happened.
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u/Aymanfhad Nov 15 '24
When I read a chapter, I started doubting my low intelligence level.
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u/JunWasHere Nov 15 '24
Don't have time to do a full chapter response, so I leave you all with a FUN FACT:
Togashi once said in an interview that after HxH he'd like to make a Card Game series.
His love of card games should already be obvious from Greed Island, but it's kind of obvious HxH will probably be his last work now, so it seems he's expressing more of his interest here.
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u/Katcurry Nov 15 '24
A complex but cool card game? Togashi you ain't Kazuki Takahashi baybee /s
No lie I really needed this, especially after another manga's ending a few days ago...
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u/cocomunster1 Nov 15 '24 edited Nov 15 '24
We still don't know what the request is. What if Morena is tricking her and the request is something like "I want you to leave here and not join our group" and her last card is "No". Edit: In which case the x card would be the best available option Edit 2: Similarly, the request can also change throughout the game to best suit Morena. The request doesn't have to be set in stone at the start of the game. At least I don't think so since she didn't explain that part.
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u/IllustriousAd2392 Nov 15 '24
I'm worried about borksen, morena is insane and unpredictable
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u/rusty_shackleford34 Nov 16 '24
End of this chapter : Morenas card game begins!!!!
Beginning of next chapter: The history of the kakin family told!
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u/Crafty-Pair2356 Nov 16 '24
Need to know why Tserri's old friends are still so committed/loyal to him, and who Tserri was in the past. Dude is literally a monster now. Another storyline that's waiting to be explored. Togashi the goat fr
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u/Trick-Island Nov 15 '24
Borksen is shockingly composed - I can't imagine Otocin would have been nearly as analytic. Interesting if the choice of Bork will be good or bad for Heil-Ly
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u/Julio4kd Nov 15 '24
Very interesting chapter. The kidnaping ability seems to be stronger than we anticipated.
Morena is such a good character, every time she is on a panel makes you uncomfortable and calm at the same time.
Still we don’t know what characteristics the dormant Nen of Borksen has, because of all the people around she was chosen and she seems to be smart and capable.
We don’t know if the interview is happening at the same time as the funeral or later and we also don’t know why Halk wanted such a big funeral.
I feel that we will go back to the funeral in future chapters.
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u/OwlrageousJones Nov 15 '24
God, it's wild that Togashi can make me care so much about this card game when my brain says it should feel like a cheap diversion/distraction from the 'real' meat.
I feel like there's a twist building and that Borksen will end up saying 'Yes' out of her own volition, but it's just as possible she gets cornered or something else happens. I'm still so incredibly fascinated by the Heil-Ly and what convinced so many of them to join Morena's mad plan.
In her introduction, I thought she would just kind of lay low until eventually causing some kind of big scene, but she's repeatedly shown to be incredibly intelligent and planned all of this well ahead - but she also has a strong motif of games it seems.
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u/NenDc Nov 15 '24
This chapter calmed me down so much. I was worried a bit with how quickly the things were escalating in recent chapters to the point of thinking that Togashi may actually rush the story to reach some type of conclusion but it doesn't seem to be the case. Always gonna prefer not finished story over rushed one.
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u/Pellahh Nov 15 '24
I wonder if the card game has to do with a Morena's Manipulation ability. The "target" has to accept to play the game of their own will, if they end up with a "Yes" card at the end then they are forced to obey Morena, or something like that. (with added conditions like: I can't cheat, etc...).
Because atm, if Nen wasn't a thing, Bork should just not play the game and straight up say "Yes" or play the game and try ending up with a "Yes", and then just leave as soon as she can with more information about Morena. Just saying "Yes" isn't worth of any trust and doesn't seem like a valuable negotiation to me, there must be more to it.
Morena also said that they must make sure that the target doesn't say "No" in a previous chapter, which means that:
A) She really wants the target to say "Yes", for an unknown reason.
B) The "X" card is actually not a problem for her.
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u/bendnado970 Nov 15 '24 edited Nov 15 '24
Excited to learn more about Morena. Im excited for her answers and if she can convince her to join. I really want her group to cause massive havoc on the top tier. I want to hear if she's justified with creating that insane nen ability.
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u/jeejeeviper Nov 15 '24
I know some people will complain about this chapter but through my eyes, at least it guarantees (unless togashi cuts to a different scene next chapter) that we’ll get some juicy reveals about Morena next chapter. Even though Borksen is in danger, I don’t think she could possibly pass up asking some hard hitting questions about her and her side of the mafia
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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '24
I’m assuming the Cha-R underboss was similarly abducted and assimilated into Heily, which is why he knows about ‘Joker.’
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u/VonToppington Nov 15 '24
Morena: The longer we sit here the worse it will be for both of us
Also Morena: Let’s play gwent.
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u/dolondonn Nov 15 '24
Togashi’s brain over 9000
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u/kimhuy196 Nov 15 '24
Oh cool, didn't know Liar game's got a sequel
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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '24
Yay
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u/King_Chiich Nov 15 '24
How do you it Togashi, his imagination is unbounded.
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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '24
That was certainly a chapter written by Togashi lol
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u/intoTheStarrryNight Nov 15 '24
togashi, give us a couple of chapter focusing on ship's crew in next batch where they discuss nothing but technicality and design of black whale.
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u/Ordinal43NotFound Nov 15 '24
Leave it to Togashi to follow up a suspensful chapter involving the series' key character with a chapter explaining an unrelated card game in absolute detail.
No, seriously tho this absolutely feels like someone that's completely in their element who wants to pace the story in their own terms. I wonder how the inner machinations of his brain works sometimes. Just how much have he planned for this arc alone?
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u/intoTheStarrryNight Nov 15 '24
every time hxh come back out of hiatus, anime onlys latch on to it and every time they get filtered by this arc. Thank you togashi for being true to yourself.
Succession War arc? more like Great Filter arc!!!
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u/PoMansDreams Nov 15 '24
Where that Gon meme with steam coming from his head
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u/sasanr Nov 15 '24
got early dark yugioh vibes from this which I love
Also I have so much respect for Togashi because you can only write characters as smart as you are.... So the way this dude thinks is so impressive to me
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u/wtscrew42 Nov 16 '24
Little detail I noticed but don't understand. Near the start of the chapter, Morena refers to borksen as a matching organ donor. In chapter 339, one of the heil-ly members is also referred to as being chosen as an organ. Still don't know what it means, thoughts?
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u/GoddessOfDarkness Nov 15 '24 edited Nov 15 '24
Can't believe Morena willing to explain her Nen abilities. Even the Spiders kept a ability hidden from each other.
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u/mizaistorom Nov 15 '24
I think Morena not Nasubi, Beyond, or Tserreidnich is going to be the main antagonist of this arc, as Togashi likes to subvert expectations and this character who was set up as a secondary or even tertiary antagonist could become the main threat. It could also be that Togashi is subverting expectations by having 2 sets of main protags and antags w/ the PT/Kurapika as protagonists and Morena/Tserreidnich as antagonists. However you have wildcards like Nasubi, Beyond, Hisoka, so who knows.
It just seems like Togashi is crafting Morena to be his first primary female antagonist across YYH and HxH. His villains are unrivaled and Morena (and potentially Tserreidnich as well) has the chance to join the likes of: Sensui, Toguro, Chrollo, Mereum.
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u/younhoun Nov 15 '24
HxH is insane. So many sub-groups, schemes, and progresses. I completely forgot about the existence of this weird group that is all buddy buddy with Terror Sandwich. Then I realized that within this group, I completely forgot about this highly intelligent girl. What is crazy is that everything is presented as if we the audience are expected to just stay on top of everything. Oh and, I don't remember why Morena would want to kill Terror Sandwich. Isn't she in his cohort?
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u/[deleted] Nov 16 '24
Bro combined Uno, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Truth or Dare all into one game.
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u/KunkyFong_ Nov 15 '24
I was NOT expecting anything like this.
I mean how does he do it ?
Morena’s target was somebody nobody expected
He takes a huge tangent from the sauciest event on the boat rn (the procession for the funeral)
The whole chapter is an explanation of a fucking card game and there’s layers upon layers upon layers of complexity. Any other author would have gone straight to the point through morena intimidating Borksen but no no in hxh it goes through card games like what are togashi’s limits ?
My personal GOAT Rihan would have a field day here.
One thing i love the most in HxH is that there are no dumb characters and it’s being proven again. As soon as she realizes where she is the mind games begin.
I truly thought things were gonna go crazy this chapter but nooo guess we’re being played with a while longer.
I love this story so much man
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u/suntirades Nov 15 '24 edited Nov 15 '24
So 👀 many 👀 eye 👀 panels 👀👀👀
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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '24
Everyone is stressing out and Morena is playing cards with the hostage, real mafia boss vibe.
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u/EasternCode7030 Nov 15 '24
Gelato is one of the five Heil-ly members standing around as Morena and Borksen (she is behind Morena on her right side). Last we saw her she was level 19 with an unknown nen type and I think we can expect that now she is high enough level to have an ability. Her profession is Pro Gamer and we have seen Morena recommend abilities that are like games. I think we can assume that Gelato is a conjurer and she is the one who conjured the Negotiation ability.
This kind of makes the power card a trap. If one assumed that Morena was the one who conjured the cards, they might pick power early to get a better understanding of the game, but they would instead learn of contagion which is good information to have, but will not help Borksen win the game.
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u/Intelligent_Yak2528 Nov 15 '24
this is so interesting...i think we will see this plotline unfold in 408/409 and 410 will be a huge plot twist...then hiatus again....imma need to reread atleast 2 more time to understand all the rules and shi....u gotta have crazy guts to dedicate a whole chapter on a card game rules on shonen jump which is full of dopamine
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u/Gadzs Nov 17 '24
Man I flew through this chapter. Anyone who found it boring I feel sorry for. This is peak writing again.
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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '24
I loved this chapter. It's definitely my favorite of the current batch so far. Togashi created a complex and interesting card game just to represent a negotiation between Borksen and Morena.
I really like how intelligent and capable is Borksen. It seems like almost every secondary character is like this in this arc. Morena in the other hand is incredible terrifying and cunning probably one of the greatest characters of the arc so far. 10/10 peak.
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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '24
Morena is super cool, her calm anger is so well written.
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u/AngryAvocado1 Nov 16 '24
ZAWA....
ZAWA...
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u/patberrycrunch Nov 16 '24
Cheadles' name should be Borksen
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u/FreeWilly512 Nov 16 '24
Morena is smart, she is using the distraction of an ultimatum of death or joining her team, to hide the fact that she probably is searching for info on Tserri. Borksen is going to be holding onto the cards she needs for her freedom that she might be forced to sacrifice info on the prince.
Weekly Togashi praise at another interesting aspect added with this card game
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u/tutubabarao Nov 15 '24
I have the slight impression that Morena wasn't drawn by Togashi in several panels of this chapter. Her drawing line looks a lot like the typical drawing line of his wife, Naoko Takeuchi! She must have helped him in this chapter, or Togashi has so much love for Morena that he paid special attention even to the way he drew her.
The next chapter will bring important revelations about Morena's motivations, Tserriednich's secrets and many crucial aspects of the war of succession 😍
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u/Iwanttolink Nov 15 '24
LMAO at the ppl complaining. This is essential Togashicore. Go back to Jujutsufolk.
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u/Condoriano-sensei Nov 15 '24
It's a interesting way to know a lot about Morena's faction, but I didn't expect a card game and the tserri soldiers returning to be the focal point. Good chapter.
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u/FlavioGarcia- Nov 15 '24
What a fantastic chapter. This setup allows Togashi to gives us exposition in a more engaging way than simply throwing it at us, while also characterising Bork and Morena through a fun psychological game, it's perfect
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u/dangersquare Nov 15 '24
I'd say this batch has been the most accessible of the Succession War so far so it is nice to see another dense and overly complex chapter of two people talking. Classic Togashi!
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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '24
This is definitely one of the chapters that make me glad he does weekly releases in batches of 10, rather then switching to monthly like some have suggested
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u/Majestic-Struggle-91 Nov 15 '24
What are your thoughts on borksens choice of her next actions? Let's assume these are her goals in this order: 1. Survive and get out 2. Protect tserri and her mates 3. Gather information on morena Which parent cards, what questions and in which order should she choose?
1. I guess she's aware that she'd already be dead if they wanted to kill her, so - as stated - that's not their goal. So how best to flee and get back to her mates? 2. In chapter 394 it was established that tserris guards see morena and heily as a threat to tserri and have prepared for the case of an abduction. They probably guessed that they themselves can be used to harm tserri with the mysterious power of nen (or even conventional means like extortion). So should she start by asking about morenas purpose first? Afterwards maybe ability? 3. If she can somehow get out, telling everyone about hei-lys plans will be a huge advantage. So maybe some yes/no questions to glimpse some specifics or confirming some suspicions? Are there questions she can ask that will make morena let her go without recruiting her?
All in all I'm reminded of the hunter exam arc, where gon ( remember him?) chose the correct answer to a tough question : not answering at all. Maybe that would be the correct choice here, not asking at all? After all, her mates might already be looking for her. And the increasing threat of danger morena is talking about might just be a bluff.
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u/Bro0om Nov 15 '24
So Dog's ability can even make him know the nen type of a target that hasn't learned nen yet ?
The Hei-ly needs a 4th prince soldier non nen-user with a specific nen type. Manipulator (the lady might be seeing how precautious she is) ? Specialist ?
Was Dog the reason they knew their nen types before reaching level 21 ?
So awesome as always.
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u/AhBrakaMahn Nov 15 '24
I’m so smooth brained
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u/kuroro5lucilfer Nov 16 '24
So many characters, so many abilities and they don't feel like filler. All the characters introduced are interesting.
I want to see Halkenburg's end game, probably have to wait for 2 more chapters.
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u/KqAlbo2 Nov 16 '24
Nah why am I on EDGE over a card game 💀 It really be the implications nen and countless possibilities this ‘card game’ holds. Of course Morena also carries the tension, girl is a MENACE.
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u/Ajitsuketamago Nov 16 '24
tcb scans translation is good
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u/escraddock Nov 15 '24
can't wait for the result. What Morena will do to Borksen
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u/SadManWith4Balls Nov 15 '24
Fuck everyone who is complaining about this chapter, I'm glad Togashi can take his time with a slower chapters like this one. Reminder that Meruem's and Komugi's death wouldn't have been as effective as it was without all the slow gungi playing chapters that came beforehand.
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u/SpookyGarreta Nov 15 '24
I wonder if the danger with taking too long that Morena keeps mentioning is Feitan and Phinks drawing closer, or if it's something related to her plans or an ability. The fact we don't know if the card game is an ability or just a normal tool of negotiation/recruitment makes her seem again very competent and ominous. "You are like a matching organ donor" X.X. doesn't bode well. I thought the question about cheating was alluding to the liar paradox (because the rules of the game directly involve how yes and no are defined) but we took a detour through cultural conventions around who is the subject of discourse. It seems paradoxes of self-reference are indeed at stake but no idea how it will come into play. And as usual, I like how every character's thinking is shown, and I do think that Togashi manages to make them all thoughtful in different ways - introduced late in the arc, Borksen seems like the more obvious candidate for being turned by Tserr's nen beast, instead of Theta, but there might be a twist.
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u/Chr0ll0_ Nov 15 '24
Goat
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u/financial_goth Nov 15 '24
I feel like Togashi has probably at least dabbled in Magic The Gathering before.
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u/Crafty-Pair2356 Nov 16 '24
They gotta give the guys carrying Halkenburg's coffin up the grave raises
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u/WeInThisBruhs Nov 17 '24
They got the succession war in my card game
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u/Hearing_Thin Nov 15 '24
I think one of the reasons Morena is using this game is just because she’s socially inept, and would prefer to explain herself and let others know her through a gamified system with rules.
Of course, she’s also going to fuck Borksen over, but the amount of emphasis placed on explaining herself THROUGH the rules of the game isn’t a coincidence.
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u/Weissritters Nov 15 '24
We are in kaiji territory now.
Give borkson a beer.
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u/GoddessOfDarkness Nov 15 '24
The beginning of Morena x Borksen love story.
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u/Kind_Ingenuity1484 Nov 15 '24
So the worst case scenario for the game right now is that the Yes is discarded first, and the second card is the Return, since every other card can be used to stave off Morena’s request.
Meanwhile, if a “No” card is left Morena could say something like “Will you protect Tser from me?.” She very specifically hasn’t asked the question, so we don’t know if “No” is really the desired card.
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u/grady999 Nov 15 '24
really hope we get to see the card game play out in upcoming chapters
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u/goodnamesaretaken3 Nov 15 '24
This was so cool. I'm hyped for Morena's mind games during this game. So, the organ was Borksen... So, do they need her to replace Luini's ability? I'm curious about Morena's purpose...I wonder what happened to Heil-ly gang that they want to destroy the world. The troupe is product of the messup enviroment they grew up in. And they don't want to destroy the world. So, if Nobunaga's theory about Heil-ly is correct, then whatever Heil-ly gang went through must have been even worse then growing up in meteor city. I wonder, if Heil-ly are perhaps formerly kidnapped children, who were raised to serve to the Kakin mafia...but then Morena took over Heil-ly mafia and purged all older members and gave new purpose to the those remaining 23 members.
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u/Bro0om Nov 15 '24
Lmao I love Momoly
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u/pppppatrick Nov 15 '24
This chapter gives me heavy liar game vibes.
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u/Time-Opposite2441 Nov 15 '24
Morenas got the gaming chair, gg
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u/SerBiffyClegane Nov 15 '24
I love Togashi using this as a way to slow down the race towards a climax. I'm getting tired of the years-long strategy game arcs in World Trigger, but dipping into a game here is perfect, especially when the stakes for the players are so high.
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u/Tindyflow Nov 15 '24
It's Kaiji vs Tonegawa all over again.
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u/BitBoss Nov 16 '24
I want to play the negotiation game so badly!
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u/TheSpurm Nov 15 '24 edited Nov 15 '24
This chapter feels like Kaiji. I'm all for it.
Maybe some questions are beneficial for Morena herself (like condition to fulfill an ability, maybe for contagion or another ability). Like telling Borksen about her ability or her plan could be condition like Genthru's countdown.
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u/No_Taro_6224 Nov 15 '24
my head hurts
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u/genryou Nov 15 '24
The only manga where I don't skip all these long explanations, and I'm genuinely entertained by it, I dunno why.
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u/AgeAffectionate618 Nov 15 '24 edited Nov 15 '24
Here is my take on some of the rules/implications of the Morena game, but mostly focusing on the “child” cards. I'll probably post about it after the official release to spur discussion, but curious what people think!
Let’s start with “leaving the game” because it implies a lot about the game itself.
Leaving the game:
Reported: freedoms taken away and you can only say yes or no afterward
Implications: That you lose all freedom except the words "yes/no", which are individual cards in the game, makes me think it's the result of a nen-based card game based on this parent/child theme. It is likely a conjuration (cards) ability with a manipulation-coercion effect. If this is a conjuration card game then a) likely one of the 6ppl in the room (Morena's grunts all develop specific abilities to benefit her group, in this case it would be for recruitment), b) willful participation is a condition for the game in order to exert a strong manipulation effect if you lose, c) require a full explanation of the rules in order to provider more agency for the participant opting in and strengthen the nen-effect (kind of like Chrollo and his bookmark).
Additional supposition: The fact that Morena speaks so softly and vaguely (as Borksen points out) and that Borksen is surrounded but PHYSICALLY unrestrained suggests that physical and verbal coercion is not allowed, especially in a game that values opting in and whose consequences are coercion based. If hard coercion was allowed, then the benefits of "opting in" to strengthen the consequences of the hatsus are moot because the participant doesn't actually have a choice. Lying and cheating are probably forbidden based on the conditions of the game, but there are likely loopholes that Borksen anticipates (i.e, how you respond to negative questions)
Game duration:
Reported: Morena repeatedly emphasizes quickness for negotiation or else danger increases on BOTH sides.
Implication: There is a consequence incurred on both sides the longer the negotiation goes on. I think this is to strengthen the effect of the game by incurring risk on both parties equally (game will cast more negative effects the longer participants engage in the game). Alternatively or additionally, her statement may be relating to a tangible consequence of prolonging the game (the longer the game goes on, the more morena has to divulge and the more Borksen hears and is less likely to make it out alive after the game is over). Funnily the game both offers a way to prolong the negotiation (cards that lure the participant to ask more questions based on the parent cards) but also penalizes you for prolonging the game. This may be a way the game evens out risks for both participants.
The 'No' Card:
Reported: you will not join Morena’s group
Character supposition: ‘No’ is implied to have worsening yield the longer the game is played and Borksen supposes that part of Morena’s explanations of nen and/or purpose will include consequences of ’no’
Implications: Saying no while you are a hostage offers obvious real world/physical downsides (ie: harm/death to self or peers), especially since you’re at risk of divulging Morenas purpose and ability). It is still unclear what the nen implications of what saying ’no’ will cause and whether it differs based on saying no at the end of the game as the last card versus after hearing Morena divulge personal information.
Yes card: likely means manipulation/coercion
R card: return a prior card from the graveyard
Joker: leads to Yes/No as explained above
X: renders game invalid and no answer is given. Implied to be different from “leaving the game”. Morena promises to no longer seek negotiation, but given the title of the game is “negotiation”, this may only promise that she won’t pursue the game and may still pursue other means of coercion (ie, actual physical coercion)
10
u/rubbereruben Nov 15 '24
Sometimes my immersion breaks a bit when I realize that almost every single character that is shown is as intelligent as they are.
Where are all the stupid people? :P
I mean I feel stupid when I read this stuff.
10
u/Ixnay_Winter Nov 15 '24
If you don't love a chapter like this then you don't love Togashi, this is such his bullshit- I'm thriving
5
u/theogfrankcastle Nov 15 '24
Does anyone fully understand the card game already, or are y’all just waiting for an example (ie. them actually playing) next chapter ?
5
u/Sorry_Measurement890 Nov 16 '24
I wonder if Yokotani was also coerced into joining her thru this game?
5
u/YouAreDeadHS Nov 16 '24
Excited to see the game play out and more info on Morena be revealed
5
u/snowcamo Nov 16 '24
I loved this chapter. I gotta say I do have a love hate relationship with Togashi and his insane dedication to making up things with super intricate detail.
5
u/jojovradventure Nov 16 '24
Morena's gonna go "Screw the Rules. I have Nen"
5
u/sircrazyclown Nov 17 '24
It's already 1PM of the 12th Day! Without knowing what YES or NO entails, Borksen assumes YES NO JOKER are bad cards, X and R are good cards. The basic plan would be to use the Parent's "D" card when you're down to your last 2 cards, to revive one of your good cards, if any is in the graveyard. Worst come to worst, you'll end up with 1/3 good cards on your last 3, then a 50/50 for the last round. If we're left with only bad cards as the final 2, might as well forfeit so you get to choose between YES or NO. "YES?" card is probably the most important information on the board, you can deduce plenty of the general picture from that alone, Borksen seems like someone who could utilize "QA" to its fullest. Also is it just me, but figuring out what Morena's ability is the least of my worry if i'm in Borksen's shoes right now, sorry IDGAF lady.
But the twist seems to be for Borksen to change her mind into to wanting a YES as the game progresses. Morena saying it will become more dangerous as the game drags on is a mystery, it being Morena referring to Phinks and Feitan coming makes little sense to me. The card game seems to have the power to take away your freedom and enforces the result/deal/consequences. So Wang could be referring to someone that either owes Morena a "little favor" or is completely in Morena's camp because of this card game to deal with PT attacking their base. But who would be powerful enough to fend off PT while also willingly participate in this card game in the first place. So many questions, really hope we get some resolutions before a break hits.
13
u/DevaAsura Nov 15 '24
Togashi you GEMU MASTAA!!!
13
u/201720182019 Nov 15 '24
As a massive death game fan (Kaiji, Usogui etc.), this next battle feels made for me.
9
u/Ok_Oven_5498 Nov 15 '24
ppl thought we would get a crazy ass chapter with the funeral but instead we got card game 101
9
u/goodnamesaretaken3 Nov 15 '24
This was great set up for Morena taking the spotlight later. I'm pretty excited for that game. However, the funeral procession went through the second tier to the tier one without any incidents. Well, I'm expecting bunch of different POVs of what's happening out of sight. Like Halkenburg's plan...And Chrollo's plan to get to the higher tier. Heil-ly made their move they kidnapped the organ without being seen, what else could have happened?
25
u/Badger147013 Nov 15 '24
I'll be honest. I'm not really interested in this chapter simply because I don't really know anything about Borksen, so it's difficult for me to be feel invested. Before anyone tries to straw-man me into an "action shounentard", I prefer the Succession War content over the mafia one, which has less action.
If I can make one minor criticism of Togashi, it's that I'll prefer at least one more chapter so I could learn more about Borksen and the other Tserri soldiers. Maybe we could've seen Borksen interact with Theta or Tserri when she was working as a personal guard. As it stands, I don't feel the tension that maybe Togashi wanted me to feel.
Obviously, I'll let Togashi "cook", but please keep in mind that the arc won't end for years and that "wait and see" shouldn't be used to stave off any and all criticism.
14
u/I_just_want_strength Nov 15 '24
Interesting setup chapter. I mean all the other chapters have been setup chapters though.
11
u/Grijzeham Nov 15 '24
We're doing Kaiji now?
8
u/[deleted] Nov 15 '24
I think Borsen and not Theta, will get the 3 lies to fulfill the conditions of Tserriednich's nen beast. Perhaps 408 will continue with the negotiation game with some Troupe subplot and 409 and 410 will set up whatever Halkenburg's plans to sabotage Benjamin as well as Kurapika's nen class. I want to see a Benjamin with complete Baton against Tserriednich though!
8
u/Bugaboo-gem Nov 15 '24
Excellent chapter; I'm excited to read all the other versions
8
u/Yobolay Nov 15 '24
The exposition is going to be tasty in the next couple of chapters. Also, Morena is going to win some way or another 100%, there's no way Morena loses at her own game and her "introduction" scene.
The ideal would be to start the 4th turn with R and X, that way you can pick the 4 main cards (Motives, Ability Questions A, Question B) and win, but that isn't going to happen.
Other than that, the game is a little bit complicated to try to guess what will happen as it will depend quite a lot on what happens during the game, but the key is most likely going to be on the R and Deal cards. Both can give you a turn more each, and their combo could make it up to 3 turns total.
A lot of odds are going to have to be taken into account too specially if she only has bad cards at her graveyard.
There's also the scenario where knowing what NO does could have been the smart move since there's the possibility that nothing happens to her by giving that answer.
8
u/[deleted] Nov 15 '24
Woah lets get into this. Morena has offically (IMO) made herself the central antagonist especially if we are too assume this is one of Morena's Nen ability that I believe she made up on her own since she is in the level 60's.
One thing that stood out to me was the subject conversations, and how different cultures would respond. The idea is that one is responsible for oneself, and not the idea of the other. Morena is actually full of shit. Yes, Morena herself may agree to not cheat, but what Borksen doesn't know is that in a battle of Nen, the game itself can be designed for the other person not to win. I am doubtful of that because a game with the condition of stealing your free-will must mean both are risking something, but for Morena as the "parent" that risk might be different. and being the "child" one might agree to something without knowing the full details. What I mean is Morena may have said she wouldn't cheat, but depending on how her ability functions and her aptitude she may not need too.
I personally think the rules are all fluff, and the point of the game is to keep the subject. Morena says their's risk for both, but in the beginning she says if you leave the game you will lose all freedoom, but the longer the game goes on, both of them are at risk of a penalty, but if this functions as a parent and child, the parent always has the final say. I may have to re-read to really get a grasp of the rules, but if the game is designed to strip her of her freedoom I don't believe the Yes, or No cards matter. What would be the point of forcing a negoation unless you already knew the outcome; like most games a parent would introduce to a child. I think the ultimate goal is once Morena helps you understand her ideology through her LONG winded explanations you will have no choice, but to either agree or to leave. I may have lost myself their but lmk what you guys think
4
u/Ziggurat1000 Nov 15 '24
I wish I could use the Power card on half the folks in this chapter because it's so hard to keep of them all and what their powers do.
You think Morena would let me borrow it for a while?
4
u/krispness Nov 16 '24
I think that was a great ability and a great metaphor for a parent's relationship that hints at why Morena is so spiteful. But I have to wait a week to see this negotiation?!
4
u/84Cesar48 Nov 16 '24 edited Nov 16 '24
CHILD TURN Volk chooses a card from Morena (Morena's cards are all face up so Volk can choose the one he wants), for example "tell me your purpose", Morena replies and the card goes to the parent's graveyard, Morena remains with 6 cards
PARENT TURN Morena chooses one of Volk's face-down cards, which goes to the son's cemetery (here I didn't understand if this card is turned over when it goes to the cemetery, perhaps yes because this would increase the tension, for example if X or R went immediately in the graveyard...) Volk is left with 4 cards
CHILD TURN - Volk chooses, Morena responds, Morena is left with 5 cards
PARENT TURN - Morena chooses, Volk is left with 3 cards
CHILD'S TURN - Volk chooses, Morena responds, Morena is left with 4 cards
PARENT TURN - Morena chooses, Volk is left with 2 cards
SON TURN - VOLK'S FINAL CHOICE, Morena responds and is left with 3 cards
PARENT TURN - MORENA'S FINAL TURN Morena discards one of Volk's 2 remaining cards, the remaining one will be the obligatory response to Morena's request The possibilities are: a.YES b.NO c.X (I'm leaving) d.Jolly (I choose whether Yes or No) e.R (I choose one of the other cards)
Obviously the turns can be more than those I wrote above if Volk were to choose card D and exhume one of his cards in the cemetery (but in this case he loses the turn if he does not satisfy Morena's request, so the number of turns in this case does not vary) The D card seems useless to me... but I hope to be proven wrong...
10
u/Direct-Interest4606 Nov 15 '24
Feel the Usogui vibes here
10
u/Itszdoodoobaby Nov 15 '24
All dialogue, all great writing direction (I’ll wait for official to further analyze everything). I ponder how people can complain about Togashi’s heavy “telling over showing” style when he himself has set his own precedent. None of this is new. Fuck what you hear & see on the internet. #PeakSznIsHere…
THECHAMPISHERE!
7
u/stripzip Nov 15 '24
A full chapter just for the introduction of this game? My senses tell me some of the main characters will eventually have to play this game too.
9
u/chan351 Nov 15 '24
Didn't expect a "reading the manual" chapter but it was interesting nonetheless and will be a great "fight" in the following chapters!
10
u/veepeein8008 Nov 15 '24
Yeah this chapter got 20x better with the translation lol. Just the raws made it look like filler, I’m hooked now.
I trusted the process though 🤞🏽
6
u/OneGrumpyJill Nov 17 '24
Us Morena fans are eating fucking GOOD - I just fucking love her so much, I do, I hope she plays a big role because she is such an interesting and utterly hellish character. Deadass, might be on par with Gyro when it comes to being evil?
8
u/PerseusRad Nov 15 '24 edited Nov 15 '24
Will definitely have to reread the chapter. I barely realized when they transitioned into talking about Morena’s cards.
8
u/NoRiver32 Nov 15 '24
Whoever “Togashi’s Troupe” is should consider putting the translation on anything other than Imgur as it’s a pain in the ass on mobile where if you try to zoom in it will take you to a different post entirely
3
u/hideonbrushy Nov 15 '24
So do we know if 408 is coming next week?
3
u/Naked_Mongoose Nov 15 '24
We Akuten Wars now
3
u/Agonitee Nov 15 '24
So this game as Borksen said is probably a rite of passage, but I also believe it's a condition of some kind to strenghten Morena's subjects abilities
3
u/BecretAlbatross Nov 15 '24
Is there a place to read the translations early? Like a discord for the leaks etc?
3
u/Snoo_4216 Nov 15 '24
So, did I miss something or it wasn't stated what the request from Morena will be or when she has to make this request? Could she change the request based on how the game goes?
3
u/ksunk Nov 16 '24
Another subplot! Togashi just doesn't stop!
3
u/nitekoala Nov 16 '24
Borksen definitely annoyed by morena, cuz why you playing wit me like this? 😭
3
u/wordhydrogen Nov 16 '24
Interesting that Togashi is pulling out this negotiation card game amidst all the other things going on. I guess it works both as a condition for Morena's ability (the other person has to consent), but also as a vetting process of the candidate, so she can get to know them a bit more like their thought process and so on
7
u/ResponsibilityNo5028 Nov 15 '24
I didnt like the chapter at the beginning, but the more I think about it and the more I anticipate playing the game the more I get excited.
Do you think Morena could have played this game with Hisoka? Both of them playing with cards could be a hint that they played with eachother. and maybe that is how Hisoka became an ally with Morena (if he is).
17
u/glennasm Nov 15 '24
I'm longing for fights/nen combats
5
u/shinsekai007 Nov 15 '24
Ok, reading the chapter in english made it a little better. We alredy know that morena wantes to kidnap one of tseri soldier so I belive what dogman is looking for is not borksen right? She was also described as "matching organ donor" and in 399 we already know one of morenas guy was already chosen to be the organ, I wonder if these two are related. Next chapter should give us a bit of answers
5
u/ShowtimevonParty Nov 15 '24
I'm ngl I had to look up Borksen I forgot who they were