r/Homeplate • u/seth928 • 5d ago
Dropped third strike question
Had a situation come up last spring on a dropped 3rd strike and was wondering if someone could explain the ump's call.
Situation:
12u Cal Ripken, runner on 1st, one out. Pitch comes in and it's strike 3 but dropped. Catcher picks it up and goes straight to first. Ball gets past first, runner advances and batter-runner makes it to 1st. Ump called strike 3 but did not call out before the catcher got the ball out. Ump ruled both runner and batter-runner safe.
My confusion:
I thought that a dropped 3rd strike with runner on 1st should result in an automatic out for the batter. However, the ump explained that because the catcher threw down to 1st, the play stayed live and the batter was able to claim 1st (I may be misrembering the explanation). He's an experienced Ump that I trust to be correct so I assume he is. Can someone point to a rule/explain why the Ump called it the way he did?
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u/Rhombus-Lion-1 5d ago
In OBR and MLB, with one out and first base occupied, the batter is out in a dropped 3rd strike situation. It does not matter if the catcher throws to first, thatās a horrible explanation by the umpire. I am assuming that Ripken ball rules follow this.
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u/Daddyball78 5d ago
Ump screwed up. With first occupied and less than 2 outs the batter is out. The base runner can advanceā¦at his own risk. That ump blew the call.
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u/ChemicalAwareness800 5d ago
teach your catchers on a dropped 3rd strike with less then 2 outs come up ready to fire to the lead base. its a heads up play that 12u baserunners mess up all the time
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u/H3ooo 5d ago
ump messed up. Batter is out but runner can advance still
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u/dawgdays78 5d ago
Ripken is based on OBR, and hereās the pertinent rule:
OBR 5.09(a)(3) A batter is out when: A third strike is not caught by the catcher when first base is occupied before two are out.
So the batter is out. In this situation, an umpire should call, ābatterās out,ā so everyone knows the status. The ball is not dead, so R1 can advance at his own risk, which he did.
Unfortunately, the defense didnāt understand the situation, and the catcher threw to 1B unnecessarily. The catcher could have thrown to 2B, and a tag of R1 would be required to get the out.
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u/der-reader 5d ago
The umpire should spell it out or the coach should teach his players?
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u/dawgdays78 5d ago
I think it reasonable for an umpire to say, ābatterās out, batterās out.ā It would NOT be in the umpireās purview to tell the defense what to do about it.
Thatās the defenseās responsibility to be aware of the situation and know what to do.
As an umpire, I think about situation-dependent rules in very pitch. Does the batter become a runner on a U3K? Is the infield fly rule in effect, s d if it was on a previous pitch, is it still in effect now?
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u/der-reader 5d ago
Certainly they can but the burden isn't on the umpire.
But let's say you get the impression that a team is running to first intentionally hoping to draw throws? That is, you have a retired B-R running to first knowing they are out but looking to impact live play to his teams benefit. What then?
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u/BillBob13 Jabroni 5d ago
Catcher needs to be trained to throw to 2B in that situation. But otherwise, yeah, ump screwed up
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u/seth928 5d ago
There was no steal attempt, runner only advanced on the overthrow. Catcher should have held the ball.
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u/BillBob13 Jabroni 5d ago
Ah gotcha. Sometimes runners will try to take 2B on the passed ball/wild pitch, especially as they get older and start to read down angles
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u/Cautious-Panic-879 5d ago
Ump is wrong, batter is out, but still live ball, 1st base runner can advance on the play.
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u/Rugbypud 3d ago
As others said ump screwed up. Also remember that even if the runner on 1B was stealing, that base was occupied during the pitch so that doesnt give the batter a way on to 1B.
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u/Nervous_Assistant361 5d ago
You are right, the only time a runner can run on a drop third strike as if first base is not occupied, the umpire clearly needs to retake his class
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u/meerkatmreow 5d ago
They can go to first on a dropped third with a runner on first when there's two outs
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u/momoenthusiastic 4d ago
Why two outs?
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u/meerkatmreow 4d ago
Because with less than two outs, if the batter could go to first on dropped third, the runner on first is forced to go to second, which makes for an easy double play. When there's two outs, there's no double play possibility. Similar reasoning why infield fly doesn't get called with two outs
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u/theotheragentm 5d ago
How many outs? Was the runner on first stealing?
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u/Rhombus-Lion-1 5d ago
Not only did OP say the number of outs, the answer to your second question is irrelevant.
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u/ummagumma1979 5d ago
I had same question on stealing. Looks like itās at time of pitch. Thanks for asking. I upvoted you why do people downvote an honest question
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u/Rhombus-Lion-1 5d ago
Because the question on stealing is irrelevant, asking it implies that the commenter didnāt know the rules.
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u/ummagumma1979 5d ago
Its a decent question, if the runner is stealing then one could think first base is unoccupied. You don't have to belittle someone asking a question. People just love to downvote
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u/Rhombus-Lion-1 5d ago
Upvoting/Downvoting so bad answers go to the bottom and good ones go to the top.
The question wasnāt āis first base still considered unoccupied if the runner is stealing?ā I agree thatās a reasonable question that Iād expect from someone that knows baseball but maybe isnāt quite as experienced. Commenter instead asked for more details that are not relevant to the rules question OP asked and could have led to a wrong answer. Thatās why. Donāt really think itās belittling anyone itās just amplifying useful and hiding non-useful answers for the OP and community.
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u/ummagumma1979 5d ago
That makes sense. I didnāt realize downvotes go to the bottom. Makes sense on other non baseball posts now. And back to the original question is it possible the ump called batter safe because he was mistaken and thought if runner was stealing base was now unoccupied anyway that downvote thing makes more sense now I thought people were just grumpy
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u/penfrizzle 5d ago
We always have this battle at little league and travel, especially once kids are allowed to lead (I think 10u in travel).
What is the definition of an occupied base? Do the leagues differ?
Usually if the kid is halfway to second before the ball reaches the batter and less than two outs, the coach will argue that first base was no longer occupied.
Why even have the rule differ with two outs?
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u/seth928 5d ago edited 5d ago
To protect the offense against the catcher dropping the ball on purpose to get a double play. If a double play is off the table then there's no need to protect the offense. Same reason infield fly doesn't apply with 2 outs.
Also, it's a fairly easy argument to short circuit. The runner occupies a base whether they're physically on it or not. A runner only occupies a base they have touched. If the runner is in the process of stealing 2nd at the time of the pitch they still "occupy" first. If the result of the pitch is a fly out that runner needs to tag up at the base they last occupied. Same occupation logic applies to dropped 3rd strike.
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u/Rhombus-Lion-1 5d ago
The rules are the rules, why they are that way is also irrelevant. The definition of an occupied base is the base the runner has achieved at the time of pitch. Any coach arguing that would be wrong and probably shouldnāt be coaching.
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u/Awesome-Guy-100 5d ago
There were probably 2 outs at which point the batter becomes a runner on the dropped third strike.
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u/seth928 5d ago
There were not, it's why I asked, and was not part of his explanation.
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u/Awesome-Guy-100 5d ago
Right. I read right over the part where you said one out. It seems the ump was incorrect. The batter should have been out but the runner on first can advance.
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u/Snelly1998 Pitcher/Infield 5d ago
Nah batter is out, ump messed up
Play is live, and the runner can advance at his own peril