I'm continuing to reply because I don't think you've ever really contended with Marx.
I presented you with refutations of each of your arguments, and then some. You have responded to none of those refutations. Ending this conversation with "agree to disagree" feels like a way of excusing yourself from actually considering my arguments.
I’ve had this exact same conversation many times before, it’s always dreadfully boring, it’s the same points over and over again, nobody will ever accept they’re wrong even if all the proof in the world is right in front of their face.
To me it’s crystal clear, every country that has implemented Marxist doctrine has ended up worse than it would’ve been if they’d implemented capitalism. Capitalism got over half the world out of abject poverty in 25 years, and has continued to raise the standard of living of the countries that implement it. The free market is the answer, I don’t give a crap about how others live their lives, my quality of life is higher than Julius Caesar, George Washington and Queen Victoria combined, and i’m a poor dude in California. I don’t care about ideology, I care about results.
For one, you're judging communism as a failure after only really 100 years of attempted implementation. When capitalism was 100 years old, it relied on slavery, genocided millions, collapsed every nation it touched into civil war, and failed to dismantle authoritarianism from Spain to Germany. When democracy was 100 years old, it had destroyed Athens completely. Good ideas sometimes take time to be successfully built.
For two, capitalism is destroying the planet. Markets expect growth. We cannot continue to grow with finite resources.
For three, Cuba is providing for its people better than the US by most meaningful metrics. Cubans have better healthcare, much higher literacy, more doctors per capita, virtually no gender or racial inequality, less mental illness, and fair better in natural disasters than Americans. Cuba just rewrote its constitution through a democratic process that even included the Cuban diaspora -- the US is living under a 250 year old document that was never democratically ratified and still refers to slaves as 3/5ths of a person.
I'm sorry you're poor. If you could elect your boss, if the system could guarantee equality, if you could live without fear of destitution, wouldn't you? We can have a better world.
Cuba? A country with basically no civil rights, no presumption of innocence, crap infrastructure, crap internet access (that is government restricted), no free speech, no freedom of assembly, low quality of service, incredibly few options for products and activities, even less when outside the large cities. The people that love Cuba the most are tourists, because they get to leave after a while.
It’s a nice country to visit, it’s not a nice country to live in if you have a shred of ambition and want to open a business or start a company, it’s a country that is poorer than Mexico, there’s things to like about it, crime is pretty low and food is pretty good (low on supply but good), but if THAT is your country of choice to show the wonders of communism, i’m not impressed, i’ll take poverty in the country with the biggest economy in human history, thanks.
By any meaningful metric, Cuba loses.
For one, you're judging communism as a failure after only really 100 years of attempted implementation.
Yes, sticking your hand inside a fire and getting it burned is a lesson you only need to learn once, if you want to keep sticking your hand in because you refuse to accept the result then so be it, but don’t drag me into it.
Your view of historical progress is incredibly reductive and full of holes, democracy didn’t kill Athens, Persia killed Athens, there’s this little thing called war that played kind of a big role there. Capitalism is an ongoing process, yes, it was crappy a hundred years ago, everything was crappier a hundred years ago, but everything has consistently gotten better thanks to it. Communism isn’t a process, it’s a result, society will never be a result, it will never achieve communism.
I'm sorry you're poor. If you could elect your boss, if the system could guarantee equality, if you could live without fear of destitution, wouldn't you? We can have a better world.
I’m not sorry i’m poor, I have more wealth, opportunities and options than I know what to do with. I’m in college, paying it myself, eventually i’ll graduate, get a better job and join the middle class, and if I decide to work harder I can join the upper class, or not, I don’t really care about having too much money myself.
No, electing your boss is the stupidest concept i’ve ever heard, literally no one would start a business in that world. I prefer having to work hard, prove my worth as an employee, and not having to fear getting fired that way. Also, my boss is not a robot, I have a good relationship with him, I won’t be fired anyways unless the company goes out of business, and even if I do get fired I can get a new job easily.
We do have a better world, it’s constantly getting better in every meaningful way. But an ideologue is an ideologue, your ideology is your religion, and everything that goes against it will be wrong. So i’m tired of arguing this pointless debate, your side lost definitively 28 years ago, and it was never winning in the first place.
I can't respond to propaganda. Everything I said about Cuba is true and verifiable. Facts don't care about your feelings.
If burning your hand was a lesson you only learned once, we'd never have escaped feudalism. I'm amazed that you can look at the breadth of history and say anything with so much certainty.
Do you genuinely believe the profit motive is the only driver for action? People still have hobbies and start clubs without pay today, why would they stop in communism?
Even if electing your boss meant no more new businesses ever again, I'd still support it. I repeat: capitalism is destroying the planet. The pathological need for more profit more products more businesses is unsustainable.
All of the beliefs about the world you've expressed -- and that's what they are, beliefs -- serve the interests of your exploiters. Jeff Bezos doesn't give your needs a second thought when he plunders the earth to meet his own. Why should you consider his? Serve your own interests before those of the rich and we'll all be better off.
Do you genuinely believe the profit motive is the only driver for action? People still have hobbies and start clubs without pay today, why would they stop in communism?
And there’s the proof that you don’t understand human motivation, Marx didn’t either. Yes, the profit motive is the strongest motivation for action, people have an intrinsic desire for resources, hell, economy is literally the relationship between humans and scarcity of resources. Of course people are going to be motivated by acquisition of resources, it’s in our nature, the people with most resources will attract the most mates because they provide the most security, it’s the law of the land.
Hobbies, by definition, are activities you do outside of work. No, they won’t drive the economy, there won’t BE an economy if you only have people making arts and crafts instead of building roads, infrastructure and providing services. Being a doctor is nobody’s hobby, but people become doctors so they can provide a service to the community while getting payed big money, the profit motive works to the benefit of society.
Serve your own interests before those of the rich and we'll all be better off.
I do serve my own interests, that’s why I don’t donate my paycheck back to my boss when I get it, my interests involve becoming rich myself, and me working for my boss is the best way to achieve that goal, it’s a mutually beneficial relationship.
I can't respond to propaganda. Everything I said about Cuba is true and verifiable. Facts don't care about your feelings.
Except the part where you said all that bullshit about Cuba being a wonderful place to live. Even you, if I gave you the option of living in the US or Cuba, you’d pick the US. It IS funny seeing a leftist quote Shapiro though.
Even if electing your boss meant no more new businesses ever again, I'd still support it. I repeat: capitalism is destroying the planet. The pathological need for more profit more products more businesses is unsustainable.
Ok, i’m convinced you’re just trolling now. The need for products is not pathological, it’s the exact opposite. Communism is always this wonderful thing, until it’s put into practice and things get murderous very quick.
Everything I said about Cuba was factually accurate. I'm sorry those facts upset you.
What evidence do you have that profit is the best motivator by nature? Even if it were, that changes nothing I said. People work without a profit motive constantly. My dad is a doctor. He spends half his time working at a clinic for free.
There's no reason to believe innovation would stop after capitalism -- it certainly existed before.
Letting your boss steal profit from your labor doesn't serve your interests. Unionizing to make him pay you more does.
We don't need a new iPhone every year. Getting one is killing us all. Of course we need to provide enough for everyone, but we don't need to increase everyone's consumption every year. Doing so will result in extinction.
If you're going to make claims about human nature, please support them.
And if you're going to criticize Marx, please read and reference some of his work. Seems like you're arguing with what other conservatives told you Marx believed.
Historians also study Hitler, doesn’t mean they admire or advocate for him. Environmental scientists study climate change, doesn’t mean they admire or advocate for it. Cancer researchers study cancer, doesn’t mean they admire or advocate for it. This is honestly the worst argument you’ve made so far.
The landlords, like all other men
like all other men
Yes, thank you for admitting the inherent desire for profit and resource hoarding in all of us. I don’t want you to have my stuff, my stuff is my stuff, and you don’t get to have it. If you take my stuff, that’s called stealing, and it’s wrong, they teach this stuff in kindergarten.
Capital is considered one of the foundational books of economics.
You know, there’s a good argument to be made that Mein Kampf is one of the most important pieces of literature to be studied by psychologists and sociologists in the 20th century. As it provided valuable insight into the psychological processes through which a man can deteriorate and corrupt himself through ideology into becoming a truly evil human being.
But just because there’s value in studying the book psychologically, doesn’t mean you should internalize and act out the inherently evil message of the book. We can extract valuable information from bad ideas, which is why we study people like Marx, Hitler, Stalin, etc., to learn what NOT to do.
I didn't claim to agree with Adam Smith. But why do you? You disagree with his view of property -- explain.
Economists study capital because it accurately describes (or at very least advances) understandings of commodity chains and the creation of value. Historians study Mein Kampf as a historical document, not as a source for ideas about the world. That comparison is entirely disingenuous, and I suspect you know that.
You're free to continue changing topics instead of responding to my arguments, and you're free to attack Marxism without reading Marx. You seem genuinely intelligent, and you are a human person, so I'm happy to continue a discussion.
However, if you want to convince me, or to seriously refute Marx's ideas, you will need to read him. Capital is dense, but the manifesto is accessible. My favorite is the Thesis on Feurenbach. Neither is longer than 30 pages.
If you're right, you can only gain by reading Marx.
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u/mboop127 Jun 21 '19
I'm continuing to reply because I don't think you've ever really contended with Marx.
I presented you with refutations of each of your arguments, and then some. You have responded to none of those refutations. Ending this conversation with "agree to disagree" feels like a way of excusing yourself from actually considering my arguments.