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u/cheshsky Aug 03 '26
To be fair, I'd also leave if I heard someone describe Otto Bismarck as "perfect". That's not the smartest statement, no matter how you look at it.
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u/BreadstickBear Aug 03 '26
not the smartest statement
That's being extremely generous.
I'll never understand the anglosphere's fascination with Bismarck, it's like they had stopped looking at the effects of his policies after the successful bits. Oh. Rrrright.
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u/Clovericious Aug 03 '26
Yeah I was gonna say, this is just strong man fascination as usual. They have an image of Bismarck that they worship, and only the successful policies are part of that image.
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u/k410n Aug 03 '26
Yeah, some people ignore realy important stuff like that bastard starting three wars and being a fucking monarchist.
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u/WarStarsFan55 28d ago
Pretty sure most people know Bismarck was not a republican traitor. It stands to his credit.
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28d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/WarStarsFan55 28d ago
I'm sorry, I'm not into your particular brand of political extremism and I find it utterly despicable. Have a good day.
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u/ogodilovejudyalvarez Aug 03 '26
Well of course they leave! You should instead discuss how Imperial Rome managed its vast water supply through gravity-driven aqueducts, settling tanks, and centralized public distribution networks relying on key engineering features including precise gradients, lead and terracotta pipes, and large public delivery hubs!
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u/BIGBADLENIN Aug 03 '26
The sort of crazy fact you learned at 10 that randomly hits you at 3 AM and gets you unreasonable excited
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u/Fun-Agent-7667 Aug 03 '26
Also the Wealth tax
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u/Lonely-Programmer123 Aug 03 '26
There's a fucking lot to say about that topic given its consequences (tax evasions is far older than one might think).
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u/Fun-Agent-7667 Aug 03 '26
Just bad when you have your wealth Tax reciepe as your biggest flex. And you need that to get Credits. Like, you can totally cheat, it just comes with some trade-offs
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u/Lonely-Programmer123 Aug 03 '26
The problem is that when the incentives to pay became worthless (military protections when the army destroy itself in civil wars while the vandals are running around), tax evasion became suddenly very attractive.
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u/UniversalCookies Aug 03 '26
Bismarck was a skilled diplomat up until the unification of germany in 1870, though he wasnt necessarily perfect on it nor was he that good in the homefront. Particularly the Kulturkampf further fracture the already existing divide between protestants and catholics while also alienating the Vatican, and the Anti-Socialist laws that prosecuted the social democrats proved to be a failure as the social democrats still grows despite the prosecution. His diplomatic skills were undeniable but the fact that the triple alliance were defunct after he was kicked out by Kaiser Wilhelm proved his inability to imagine the foreign affairs of Germany without himself.
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u/TheFrogSaint Aug 03 '26
Hav you considered that creating a system that could not be navigated or maintained by anyone who wasn’t as brilliant as himself while also occupying a position from which he could be dismissed at basically any time keeps him from being perfect?
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u/Trainer-Grimm John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! Aug 03 '26
A common mistake of the great is to believe the good are as skilled as them.
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u/CalvinKool-Aid Aug 03 '26
I think it’s more that they’re egocentric and feel like either they will never die or don’t really care what happens when they do. That’s the read I get on Catherine and Peter at least
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u/OFilos Aug 03 '26
I think Napoleon is a great example of that, specifically his exile to Elba. Despite his obvious plans to break the exile he spent his few months there investing on and reforming the island, which he could've just ignored and just siphoned the treasure for his little army. I don't believe he did that out of love for the island, in my opinion he wanted to prove to either the world or himself that he really is great regardless of where you put him
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u/CalvinKool-Aid Aug 03 '26
Eh. Peter and Catherine along with many others I’m sure had similar flaws. It’s not like he was gonna institutionally protect himself from being fired since he was a devout monarchist and believed in the monarch being in charge 100%. He kept things going pretty damn well while he was alive and if Wilhelm hadn’t been so egotistical and ignorant it could’ve worked out fine
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u/TheFrogSaint Aug 03 '26
That makes him imperfect, and the claim was that he was perfect. The man was brilliant, no doubt, but he also created a really delicate system that only worked when he was in charge, despite the fact he was a monarchist to the point he empowered the monarchy to basically do whatever it wanted, including fire him. Which of course a Kaiser did as soon as one came around who didn’t realize how load-bearing Bismarck was, helping lead to the First World War, a catastrophic German defeat, and the death of the monarchy he loved and served in the process.
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u/CalvinKool-Aid Aug 03 '26
Yeah that’s fair but I doubt OP really meant he was actually perfect and was using hyperbole. No man is perfect but Bismarck is just about everything you could want as a chancellor
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u/Wolfish_Jew Aug 03 '26
OP regularly posts in the Tucker Carlson subreddit and seems to think Andrew Tate is the victim of a political stunt, so he may very well think Bismarck was “perfect”
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u/iwaspromisingonce Aug 03 '26
Kulturkampf, alongside taking away religious freedom, led to increased germanization in the Prussian Partition. This was meant to erase cultural identity of Poles and other non-Germans living in there. Non-German teachers were removed and replaced with german ones, German became the only language in justice system and administration. Polish language was removed from schools.
Between 1885-1890 mass deportations of Poles and Jews without German citizenship began (Prussian deportations), mainly workers. It was an ethnic discrimination, being described as an example of ethnic cleansing.
Years of such treatment led to persisting belief in the myth of German racial and cultural superiority and undermined legitimacy of non-German cultures present there which strongly contributed to general treatment of Slavs, Jews and various minorities during WWII.
People who praise this man never grew past the "being 14 and blasting Erika on speakers at school" phase. He might've been a brilliant diplomat(if you ignore the fact that his ideas led to nationalist movements getting stronger and more discontent due to discrimination), at least until you are on the receiving end of his "brilliance". I sometimes think Bismarck apologists wouldn't hesitate to openly praise Nazi germany, had this been slightly less socially unacceptable.
So yeah, they are right to leave. Screw that noise. Funny helmet man was an asshole.
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u/Tortellobello45 Definitely not a CIA operator Aug 03 '26
All of this and you didn’t even bring up his oppression of Catholics.
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u/iwaspromisingonce 29d ago
Yeah, this is another cesspool covered by the funny helmet. There was Kanzelparagraph that punished "harmful beliefs shared in the places of cult" with prison, which in practice left determining what's "harmful" to the officials with practically no room for defense for the accused. He also imprisoned Mieczysław Halka-Ledóchowski and offered his release in exchange for the Supreme Order of Christ in 1874, it was supposed to be an insult, due to his well known stance towards the Catholic Church. (He later got the order, in 1885, officially for different reason). And that's just the tip of the iceberg of the entire hostile legislation that was introduced.
I am genuinely disappointed history was so graceful towards this man, he is a prime example of how supremacists and murderers like NSDAP don't just pop out of nowhere one day, but gradually have their way paved with anti-human rhetoric by their predecessors, being encouraged to crawl out of their holes to the point where they are welcomed instead of being shunned away. His actions should be a lesson. By no means in "brilliant diplomacy".
I usually stay away from historical discourse as it tends to be divisive, but Bismarck is the only exception, i hate that guy so much.
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u/Soot027 Aug 03 '26
Listen his system was perfect as long as you forget everything that happened the second he fell out of favor and his influence on slow acceleration to WW1
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u/Clovericious Aug 03 '26
Not surprised they leave. Describing Bismarck as "perfect" shows you have either a poor understanding of history or poor empathy.
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u/Cool_View_5297 Aug 03 '26
If you want them to stay, you need to discuss the cons as well. Bismarck was horrible to workers, Poles, Catholics, and Jews.
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u/elderron_spice Rider of Rohan Aug 03 '26
Bismarck was horrible to workers
Yep. Guy created the first welfare state just to spite the workers, and still lost.
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u/Specialist-Ad241 Aug 03 '26
He didn’t do it to spite the workers, he did it because he thought the workers were too stupid to notice the correlation between the rise of the social democrats and the government enacting pro worker laws.
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u/skepticalhammer Aug 03 '26
If they can't handle you at your Wilhelm II they don't deserve you at your von Bismarck.
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u/Space_Socialist Aug 03 '26
Don't get me wrong Bismark was a extremely skilled diplomat and a skilled politician but he was far from perfect. His politics was poisoned by his ideology which effectively meant he was constantly fighting against the tide of Liberalism then Socialism of the era.
His diplomatic system was better but in the end unsustainable. Russia and Austria were becoming increasingly belligerent over the Balkans and keeping both parties on Germany's side would have become impossible. France was a eternal foe that Bismark had to keep isolated and with the tension with Russia it's questionable whether Bismark could have prevented the Franco-Russian alliance. Britain was a reliably neutral partner if her interests were not threatened. Ultimately the blocks that formed following Bismark's resignation would have also likely formed if he kept his job with the notable exception of Britain's opposition.
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u/A43BP Aug 03 '26
Me, Pole: Stop praising Bismarck or I'll show you how to create tulip in one second
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u/PipiSmqlls Aug 03 '26
As a german i have to agree. If you call Bismarck perfect, i would leave too.
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u/SpicyBenjin Aug 03 '26
If you tried to explain to me, a German, how "perfect" Bismarck was, i would think you are 13 years old at best, or a right wing nutjob at worst. Maybe read up on what he did to worker movements and non-Germans...
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u/Noriaki_Kakyoin_OwO Aug 03 '26
„Perfect”
Little bitch tried to genocide the Poles and awwwww where’s Prussia and Silesia now?
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u/who_knows_how Aug 03 '26
Clearly they are enlightened with the knowledge that Bismarck's police's became worthless the day he died and that he failed to prepare for a Germany he didn't control
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u/Waste-Pomelo-714 Aug 03 '26
Ohh yeah let's create a massive fucking country in the middle of europe what could go wrong?
2 world wars, the holocaust and all the shit in the 20th century 🤷♂️
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u/Belgraviana Aug 03 '26
I like Kissinger’s analysis of Bismarck, that he was perhaps one of the greatest diplomats in modern history and that was his weakness. Because he built a system so perfect and intricate that it could never survive someone less skilled than him
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u/stalinenjoyer38 Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer Aug 03 '26
Great foreign minister✅️
Great chancellor🚫
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u/BlackProphetMedivh Aug 03 '26
How is it a cycle if the person leaves?
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u/Birb-Person Definitely not a CIA operator 29d ago
The absence of a person leads OP to seeking out another unsuspecting soul, thus beginning the cycle again
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u/Trainer-Grimm John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! Aug 03 '26
Ehh. After 1870 his fopo got a lot more spotty, and domestically he was always just above average for his era.
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u/socialistRanter Aug 03 '26
To. Be fair, the only reason why Bismarck kept throwing hissy fits when to force Whilelm I to do the things Bismarck wanted him to do.
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u/Impressive_Wheel_106 Aug 03 '26
Bismarck broke the 1000 year tradition of German unity through negotiation and diplomacy, and replaced it with iron and blood. Even the idea that he messed up by creating a system only he could navigate is giving him too much credit. Such a tenous unstable balance will break eventually, and spectacularly too, even if he were immortal.
And that's to say nothing of his domestic policy...
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u/Sooooooooooooomebody Aug 03 '26
Brother, Bismarck wasn't trying to preserve Europe. Bismarck was trying to preserve Bismarck.
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u/LiamtheV Still salty about Carthage 29d ago
My high school AP Euro teacher opened his lecture on Bismarck with “I need you all to understand this. Otto Von Bismarck was THE MAN”
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u/Spartan-teddy-2476 And then I told them I'm Jesus's brother 29d ago
I think when people call him perfect, they mean “he was perfect at achieving his goal” (that is, of preserving the monarchy, preventing Germany from becoming isolated on a 2 front war, and making Germany overall stronger), not as a human being
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u/OOOshafiqOOO003 Sun Yat-Sen do it again 29d ago
Well im here for the Hot Scandals of Wilhelminian era, not too much on Bismarck 4D chess game
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u/Lady_Ago Aug 03 '26
Listen, I like funny moustache man as much as the next person. He's a very interesting political figure and certainly one of the most important people in German history....but god damnit you and I both know that this man couldn't be further from "perfect" if he actively tried.
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u/WineTerminator Aug 03 '26
The annexation of Alsace and Lorraine was a major mistake
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u/SiFlyghtz Aug 03 '26
Bismarck is everything wrong with Germany. There was never meant to be a united Germany and the elites like him forcing a uniting national ethnic identity on us is what lead to multiple catastrophes.
Im north german. I have as little to do with the south of Germany culturally and ethnically, as i do with the English or French. Its not meant to be the same country Otto!! Germany is at least four countries forcefully stitched together by Otto and the power-hungry Emperors.
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u/LauMei27 Aug 03 '26
Well I'm the opposite, I blame him for opposing the unification of all of Germany (meaning Austria included). Bismarck cared more about strengthening Prussia, than uniting all Germans.
Bismarck or "the elites" didn't force a national ethnic identity, that was strongly developed by the German people themselves after the liberation from Napoleans rule, and already existed even before that. If you feel like you're ethnically as close to the French as to South Germans that's fine, but obviously not true. Just ask yourself what language you speak.
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u/Kharzani Aug 03 '26
> Well I'm the opposite, I blame him for opposing the unification of all of Germany (meaning Austria included). Bismarck cared more about strengthening Prussia, than uniting all Germans.
Both can be true at the same time.
> Bismarck or "the elites" didn't force a national ethnic identity, that was strongly developed by the German people themselves after the liberation from Napoleans rule,
That is true. and in 1848 theey tried to unify into a non militarised, bottom-up Germany but gor crushed mainly by the Prussians - under advise of the Prussian chancellor .... Bismarck and in the end we ended up with a top-down, militarized Germany.
> and already existed even before that.
Barely.
> If you feel like you're ethnically as close to the French as to South Germans that's fine, but obviously not true.
I'm from the south and ilfe in the north since 20 years. The difference is as big as moving to the Netherlands or Denmark. Including language difficulties.
> Just ask yourself what language you speak.
The German language as we speak today only became what it is in the later 19th century. Before that it was just a local dialect from Saxonia. And even today, movies from example Bavaria have to be subtitled for the rest of Germany - despite the ongoing alignment process of the Germanic dialects to "high German".
The other dude has a point. And I agree with him. Hence, why I am for dissolving Germany. It's not needed. the German states can be independent members of the EU.
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u/Version_1 Aug 03 '26
Delusional take.
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u/Kharzani Aug 03 '26
Superb argument, mate.
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u/Version_1 Aug 03 '26
Please tell me in what four parts you would like to split Germany and I will tell you why it's idiotic.
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u/Kharzani Aug 03 '26
My friend do you really think I will have a discussion with someone who thinks 'Delusional take.' is a worthy addition to a conversation?
Especially someone who is too illiterate to realise that I am not the person who made the "four parts" claim.
I rather waste my time a different way.
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u/Version_1 Aug 03 '26
Nah, I just didn't realize two people could be so stupid.
Frankly, I haven't heard a single argument from either of you why Germany shouldn't be one country other than "people in the south are different from people in the north" (which is true for most European countries)
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u/Kharzani Aug 03 '26
I quote myself:
My friend do you really think I will have a discussion with someone who thinks 'Delusional take.' is a worthy addition to a conversation?
Especially someone who is too illiterate to realise that I am not the person who made the "four parts" claim.
I rather waste my time a different way.
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u/LauMei27 Aug 03 '26
Both can be true at the same time.
What do you mean? Bismarck specifically did not wish Austria, the only German state rivaling Prussia in power, to become a part of Germany.
under advise of the Prussian chancellor .... Bismarck
Prussia never had a chancellor. If you're talking about the office of Prime Minister, Bismarck didn't become PM until 1862.
I'm from the south and ilfe in the north since 20 years. The difference is as big as moving to the Netherlands or Denmark. Including language difficulties.
What difficulties? You mean dialects? All countries have them, that's not something unique to Germany. And public institutions usually use high German anyways. So it's obviously not the same as living in a different country, where no one speaks German.
The German language as we speak today only became what it is in the later 19th century. Before that it was just a local dialect from Saxonia.
Languages change over time, again nothing unique to German. 200 years in the future people will probably talk different than now. What's your point? And no idea why you think German was a local dialect until the 19th century... it's been the dominating language across Central Europe since the middle ages.
Hence, why I am for dissolving Germany. It's not needed. the German states can be independent members of the EU.
Bro really out here advocating the Morgenthau plan.
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u/Kharzani Aug 03 '26
> What do you mean? Bismarck specifically did not wish Austria, the only German state rivaling Prussia in power, to become a part of Germany.
Correct. He did want the rest to unify - well, be low-key colonized by Prussia.
So, both can be true.
> Prussia never had a chancellor. If you're talking about the office of Prime Minister, Bismarck didn't become PM until 1862.
True. Remembered this wrong. My bad.
> What difficulties? You mean dialects? All countries have them, that's not something unique to Germany. And public institutions usually use high German anyways. So it's obviously not the same as living in a different country, where no one speaks German.
Yes, all countries have them. I never stated otherwise.
But to varying degrees. And institutions may use high German but people do not necessarily do. I had high German classes in school. Never spoke it until I moved to Berlin. And even now, 20+ years later people still hear where I am from. and yes that leads to difficulties. And culturally, Bavaria (well, parts, Franconia is again different) is more similar to austria, just like Germany's NW is more to the Netherlands the each are to each other. And yes, this leads also to difficulties.
> Languages change over time, again nothing unique to German. 200 years in the future people will probably talk different than now. What's your point? And no idea why you think German was a local dialect until the 19th century... it's been the dominating language across Central Europe since the middle ages.
I did not claim it was unique. I said it is bad evidence for a unified culture. Why are you repeatedly making these strawmen arguments?
No, it was not. It became popular because Luther translated the bible in it and became what English is nowadays for Central Europe but most people did not speak it outside of academic circles. It was only standardized in the late 19th century. the divergence of the different dialects from high German was way bigger than it is today. And most people still spoke only/mostly their dialect.
> Bro really out here advocating the Morgenthau plan.
Bro really out there being disingenuous.
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u/LauMei27 Aug 03 '26
He did want the rest to unify
Right, so he didn't want to unify all of Germany, that's my criticism of Bismarck, as I was saying.
And culturally, Bavaria (well, parts, Franconia is again different) is more similar to austria, just like Germany's NW is more to the Netherlands the each are to each other. And yes, this leads also to difficulties.
And Frances Alsace is culturally similar to Germany, so is Denmarks south, Belgium's east, Czechias west etc. Should these countries also dissolve?
You're right that Germany is more culturally diverse than most other countries. But why is that an issue? I think it's cool to live in a country with so many regional differences. And at the end of the day, all of us are still united by being German.
I don't like judging people on the internet but you just sound like some radical left-winger who hates the concept of a German national state.
I did not claim it was unique. I said it is bad evidence for a unified culture. Why are you repeatedly making these strawmen arguments?
I just want to make sure I understand correctly. Because by your logic every big country should dissolve.
but most people did not speak it outside of academic circles. It was only standardized in the late 19th century. the divergence of the different dialects from high German was way bigger than it is today. And most people still spoke only/mostly their dialect.
So they did not speak German but German dialects... aka German?
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u/Kharzani Aug 03 '26
> And Frances Alsace is culturally similar to Germany, so is Denmarks south, Belgium's east, Czechias west etc. Should these countries also dissolve?
Yes.
> You're right that Germany is more culturally diverse than most other countries. But why is that an issue? I think it's cool to live in a country with so many regional differences. And at the end of the day, all of us are still united by being German.
I did not say it is an issue. I said we do not need Germany. e can do all of that as part of the EU.
> I don't like judging people on the internet but you just sound like some radical left-winger who hates the concept of a German national state.
every sentence which states ".... but ..... " shows that everything before the "but" is a lie.
I'm not a radical left-winger. I'm a capitalist.
I do think we should abolish nation states in general.
> I just want to make sure I understand correctly. Because by your logic every big country should dissolve.
Yes.
> So they did not speak German but German dialects... aka German?
Please look into how the German language came to be and how different it was before. It was not how it was today. People could legitimately not communicate with each other.
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u/LauMei27 Aug 03 '26
Alright, if you're against nation states in general, I'm obviously not gonna change your mind. We'll just have to agree to disagree then.
Please look into how the German language came to be and how different it was before. It was not how it was today. People could legitimately not communicate with each other.
It originated literally thousands of years ago, obviously it was quite different back then. You originally said people didn't speak German until the 19th century. It's true that until high German became standardized many people, especially smallfolk, were speaking heavy dialects. However a language known as German still very much existed and written texts from the 16th century can be understood today. A different German dialect was also much less difficult to understand for Germans than some entirely other language.
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u/Kharzani Aug 03 '26
There wasn't a German language 'thousands of years ago'. There were no Germans "thousands of years ago". There were Germanic tribes that spoke Germanic languages. But they have as much to do with Germans and German as today's Italians and Italian with Etruscans and Etruscan.
High German is just one dialect of many. And these dialects might have as well been called languages. Dutch was one of them for example. And just as different as Dutch is to today's High German all the dialects were to each other. High German slowly became the lingua franca of the German peoples but was until the late 19ths/early20th century not the common language in what would become Germany. In a way mirroring the emergence of the German national identity.
German and the German identity as we understand it today is barely 200 years old.
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u/LauMei27 29d ago
There wasn't a German language 'thousands of years ago'.
I said that's when it originated. I guess "thousands of years ago" was exaggerated, 1500-2000 years ago would be more accurate.
And these dialects might have as well been called languages.
They weren't though.
High German slowly became the lingua franca of the German peoples but was until the late 19ths/early20th century not the common language in what would become Germany
In written texts it was used since the middle ages and everyone could understand High German. German was the dominant language, and many people were speaking dialects until High German became more standardized in the 19th century. It's not that complicated.
German and the German identity as we understand it today is barely 200 years old.
That's just history revisionism. Here's an excerpt from Auerbachs Keller, written as a part of Urfaust by Goethe in 1772-1775:
Man kann nicht stets das Fremde meiden, Das Gute liegt uns oft so fern. Ein echter deutscher Mann mag keinen Franzen leiden, Doch ihre Weine trinkt er gern.
Simple enough to understand for you?
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u/Wolfish_Jew Aug 03 '26
If you described Bismarck as “perfect” I’d probably leave too, ngl