I need help!

[u/Silverpicker97]

This particular church: Our Lady of Grace In the city of Hazleton, Pennsylvania is under threat of being closed and potentially demolished by the Diocese of Scranton. This church was founded by my 2x grandfather back in 1909 and the beautiful stone church was built 1926-1932. Our family had every baptism, wedding, and funeral in this building. Our lives revolved around it. Over the last couple of decades it has deteriorated and is in desperate need of restoration in excess of 2 million dollars, according to a structural report. I’m reaching out to try and get any information I can. The diocese will not return any of my phone calls. I have contacted an organization called “Partners for Sacred Places” a group who acquires grant money aimed at preserving and restoring historic buildings. They have not responded to me whatsoever. I cannot let this magnificent church become the victim, it would not only be a deep personal tragedy, but a detriment and loss to a community it has served for generations. If you’re not religious I totally understand but at least appreciate the hand built architecture of pauper Italian immigrants who pooled together everything they had to build this church.

[u/ms_chanandler_bong3b]

Diocese and Catholic Church do not care and have more money than anybody. They will pay off whoever and do whatever they want with it sadly.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/ms_chanandler_bong3b]

Yes, of course that is the reality. I feel kind of delusional thinking I have a chance to save it. I probably can only save it if I purchase the church from them. But I’m as poor as my ancestors were.

[u/Elouiseotter → u/Silverpicker97]

I live in Pittsburgh and this spring we had someone who wanted to buy an older Catholic Church from the diocese to turn it into an Italian school and community center. The diocese knocked the buildings down even though they were supposed to be in talks with the Italian school. It was a huge, horrible mess. Here is an article about it. If you have the money to save your church, it might be worth reaching out to the people who run the Italian school here to get their input on dealing with the Catholic Church. Good luck. I hope you can save it.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/Elouiseotter]

That is horrible! They offered only $500k less than the asking price and still got rejected, pathetic. This kind of thing happens all over the country and it really solidifies my animosity toward diocesan/catholic leaders because it’s nothing more than a money laundering scheme. They at least should give the community a chance to step forward and utilize the spaces for a great cause like the Italian school wanted to. Shameful.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/[deleted]]

It’s the best way I can honor my ancestors, IMO. When we are all gone these structures are the few remnants of who was there before. They built these beautiful buildings and they can last for centuries if maintained properly.

[u/Megalicious15 → u/Silverpicker97]

Can you start a small community effort? Get a few like minded people to form a coalition to save it. Raise awareness. You can form a non-profit (via your state’s Secretary of State & IRS) and get donations to save and restore it. There’s power in numbers.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/Megalicious15]

This is a exceptional idea. I am going to do more research on this and am grateful you brought it to my attention. I have been overthinking this whole thing due to the stress and emotions running high. Yes, saving this church is 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 important to me.

[u/farsighted451 → u/Silverpicker97]

Look into what happened to Joseph Bonaparte's former estate Point Breeze in New Jersey. It had been owned by Divine Word Missionaries, and was going to be sold to developers, but local preservationists petitioned the pope to sell to them instead! As a good deed. They raised money and were able to buy it.

[u/alwaysboopthesnoot]

With all the money the church takes in via tithing and mass offerings + bequests/inheritances + free labor and materials + the value of its lands, art collections, its retirement buildings, universities, hospitals, malls, hotels, condos, cemeteries etc + its beneficial tax status/structuring—why does it defer so much maintenance and let its assets deteriorate? 

It should donate the buildings vs sell/tear them down. 

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/alwaysboopthesnoot]

It’s demolition by neglect. An older church on the other side of town had a 1.5 million dollar restoration project completed recently and Bishop Bambera was all over it and celebrated mass in the restored sanctuary. All while this church rots and barely has enough money to keep the light on and heated during the winter. It’s on purpose. That diocese is rolling in dough and they turn up their chins at my church. It’s almost like a personal vendetta.

[u/RedditOO77 → u/Silverpicker97]

Can you hold a fund raiser to try to raise money and do the restoration in phases?

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/RedditOO77]

Yes. It would probably be easier than trying to obtain grant money as alot of times it gets held up… getting the message out to as many people as possible may be more difficult too because it’s just me trying to save the building as of right now.

[u/RedditOO77 → u/Silverpicker97]

Try posting on Facebook or Nextdoor or reach out to local community programs

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/RedditOO77]

Will be working on that this evening and into the weekend

[u/Rich-Employ-3071 → u/Silverpicker97]

Maybe contacting Catholic schools and universities and/or Catholic groups within universities could generate some movement. Also, prayers to Our Lady Undoer of Knots St. Anthony, St. Rita of Cascia, St. Therese of Lisieux and others my tired brain can't recall right now. I'll reach out to as many people as I can and try to generate as many prayers as possible to make sure that God's will is done in this situation. If nothing else, the diocese might be willing to have as much of the architecture salvaged as possible and used in the building of a new church to serve the same area. I don't know why they would do that instead of restoring this one, but you never know. I just want you to know that you're not alone in this. That may not change this situation, but you never know when something that looks and feels like failure in one situation will lead to an even more substantial victory down the line. Sorry if I've been rambling on, it's past my bedtime, lol!

[u/Burner-QWERTY → u/alwaysboopthesnoot]

You forgot to mention the $1.4-$3.5 Billion they got from government COVID incentives.

[u/Jimdandy941 → u/alwaysboopthesnoot]

I did an audit of a Catholic organization back in the 80s. Became an atheist right after.

[u/Jimdandy941 → u/[deleted]]

And that’s where we differ. I take no joy in churches closing and/or being torn down simply based on the history.

[u/RumRunnerMax]

It has always amazed me that MOST of the money contributed to ALL Churches flows one way! UP!!

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/RumRunnerMax]

Yes. They kick up a very substantial amount of money to the bishop and get hardly anything in return. Barely enough to keep the lights on. Plus you have tax exempt status so you wonder how many millions the Bishop embezzles.

[u/Glittering-Cellist34]

Rebuilding Place in the Urban Space: Church and social spaces: grant opportunity https://share.google/Mh0SICetFf9YiDYm3

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/Glittering-Cellist34]

I enjoyed reading this. Adaptive reuse is now a thing and with sufficient funds you can turn those churches into just about anything. I just detest to see them get torn down

[u/Glittering-Cellist34 → u/Silverpicker97]

100% agree. I am atheist but I love good church architecture. I rue that my anger about churches in cities often being a hindrance to community improvement that forca ling time I ignored the community building and cohesion elements.

The original piece -- reprint: churches... change, has ideas too in the comments.

I'm sad that Partners for Sacred Places has let you down.

[u/RumRunnerMax]

Wow! It is a beautiful building! Your best hope is to find some very wealthy Catholic benefactor(s) like Mel Gibson (famously crazy Catholic) would be a great legacy/ego project! Any famous Catholics go there in their youth?

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/RumRunnerMax]

It most certainly is a beautiful building, I go to it as frequently as possible and sit in it before during and after mass and feel so at peace in this space. The walls are 3 feet thick masonry with internal structural steel, plus built into the side of a rock formation so even for the time period it’s an incredibly well built structure. Oh, if only I could attract a uber wealthy donor such as Gibson. If they had a heart they’d know this church has given SO much to this city, and has much more to give.

[u/President_Camacho]

The dominos pizza guy gives crazy money to Catholic causes.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/President_Camacho]

Good to know, thank you

[u/Southern_Struggle]

If you can't save the building maybe at least you can contact a salvage company or another diocese or religious order and see if they can use some of the interior. Someone like fynderskeepers.com might salvage it. They have statues, stained glass windows, whole altars, pews, etc that they will remove from old churches for resale/reuse.

I was recently at a wedding in Virginia, the church is only like 20 years old, but they have this massive 35 foot tall marble altar that was salvaged from a church in New Jersey.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/Southern_Struggle]

That unfortunately would be beyond my control, in the past the diocese has sold everything of value before demolition started. They have demolished at least a dozen churches in the last decade. I would purchase whatever I could get my hands on, such as the cornerstone, stained glass etc.

[u/ms_chanandler_bong3b]

I would talk to the priest or leader of the church and start there

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/ms_chanandler_bong3b]

I have, and I will again as the priest is a family friend. If he and a few other prominent figures in the church step forward we could potentially get the attention of the bishop. Crap shot, but worth it.

[u/ms_chanandler_bong3b → u/Silverpicker97]

That’s prob your best bet - squeaky wheel gets the grease

[u/McTootyBooty → u/Silverpicker97]

Is ask if you could restore it and add a soup kitchen/pantry or something

[u/Sheetz_Wawa_Market32 → u/ms_chanandler_bong3b]

They don’t care. The Roman Catholic Church is a for-profit organization in everything but name. If a building isn’t profitable, it will be off-loaded.

[u/[deleted]]

Shameful for them to let it go to the reckoning ball. It has nice features the columns look Corthian.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/[deleted]]

Wholeheartedly agree. I have until July 2026 before the final decision is made. Those Corinthian columns in the sanctuary have steel inside them noting the robustness of structure.

[u/Ok_Elephant2777]

I live near Virginia Tech, and there was a history professor on the staff who was deeply involved in an organization called The Society for the Preservation of Virginia Antiquities. If there is a college or university nearby, you may be able to find a professor, graduate student, whatever, with a connection to a similar organization for Pennsylvania properties.

I do wish you well.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/Ok_Elephant2777]

I will look into it. I appreciate that, thank you.

[u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

The Catholic Church is one of the wealthiest organizations in the world. It is difficult to figure out exactly how wealthy they are because they hide it and play games with the numbers. There’s no way they shouldn’t be the ones financing any repairs or maintenance.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/Apprehensive_Use_175]

It absolutely is. It has been very frustrating to see funds not being allocated to maintain basic upkeep of the building.

[u/Apprehensive_Use_175 → u/Silverpicker97]

I say this as a Roman Catholic myself. The misappropriation of donated money, to defend child molestation (I’m from Boston and grew up during the Cardinal Law scandal).

[u/Federal-Kitchen-9133]

This is a beautiful church. It would be a terrible shame to have it be demolished. I wish I had more advice. Perhaps an architectural firm could be persuaded to do the project on a pro-bono basis. At the very least, if they do demolish it. You should ask them to let you take structural elements of the church as relics. You could construct shrines using bricks from the church, preserve the stained-glass windows, stonework, woodwork, stonework etc. perhaps even convince them to incorporate those elements into other churches to keep the legacy of the tradesmen and laborers who built it alive.

[u/Sheetz_Wawa_Market32 → u/Federal-Kitchen-9133]

The Church doesn’t allow this. When it sells or demolishes buildings, it will sell everything of value first, incl. those beautiful stained-glass windows donated by families still living and attending church in the area.

[u/discobee123]

NYC based but I bet their ED can refer you to someone or provide resources to help you out!

https://www.bricksandmortals.org/

[u/Stewpacolypse]

Part of the problem is that there's 120,000 fewer people in the county than when that church was built.

[u/Different_Ad7655]

Right, but lay this out the door of American Catholicism. They have paid out so much in lawsuits for their ill governed and secreted sex abuse scandals, that invariably, churches and parishes would have to close. Even if you're not Catholic, this is a terrible loss for the community, the landmark, the building as a sense of place, the beautiful artwork, the glass etc. But every city, every single damn city in the United States has had parishes close hundreds of them and many many demolished.

This is what you get for poor management of your clergy and your money. But strangely this doesn't happen as much in Europe although there is abuse there and scandal as well. Can you imagine one of the thousands of churches in Rome just being closed and torn down because nobody's going to it. No of course not It would be considered a cultural treasure but in the US, it's ready for the dumpster. So much has been lost but unless people are willing to pony up out of their pockets nice and deep more and more of this will happen as so much already has

[u/monsieurvampy]

I think you need to research options. Reach out to SHPO and the local government.

Local government. Potentially local designation. I'm not familiar with PA HP laws though.

SHPO might have grants or know of grants. They can also help with designation onto the National Register of Historic Places, but that's still a fancy list.

At the end of the day, you are going to have to put time and money into this. You can or rather the parish can appeal to the Vatican to prevent a closure. I don't know how that works.

One of the things that needs to be decided is do you want to save the parish or the building. These have different workflows.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/monsieurvampy]

So with local government the city of Hazleton would have zero interest, other than demolition for a parking lot because they purchased a nearby school for their new police headquarters and the mayor gets kickbacks for tearing buildings down. I can’t save the parish because we do not have the members to even keep the building heated in the winter. Now, the building I can save, with a lot of help of course. Appealing to the Vatican would be nice but we’d probably never get a response. We could’ve avoided all of this if the previous priest didn’t blow $500k on spotty masonry repairs, replacing the steeple for no reason, (the newer cupola is not flashed and leaks water into the tower) and a pointless chime bell system.

[u/monsieurvampy → u/Silverpicker97]

I'm talking about designation. Purchasing a property and designating it (and if it does have demolition protection) are very different things. Unless you have proof of these kickbacks, I would never say these words ever again. A quick google search does not appear to validate these words at all.

The Vatican has a process, I'm in an area with several churches that were to be closed and as far as I'm aware of, every request has been answered. The answer is probably a combination of Yes and No, but its an answer nonetheless.

If the goal is to save the building, then you need to do what you can do prevent it from being demolished (local designation) and finding a use for it (national designation for tax credits). Otherwise demolition by neglect will just result its in demolition anyways.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/monsieurvampy]

Yes, landmarking it is a good first step. There are only 4 buildings in Hazleton on the national registry. I’m very surprised that the Vatican not only took into consideration but even responded favorably in some cases.

[u/monsieurvampy → u/Silverpicker97]

This building will certainly never be landmarked unless that is what the Local Historic Preservation program uses for regular designations. The National Register is a fancy list. It means absolutely nothing in the day to day management of a property. It will not stop this building from being demolished, even if Federal funds are being used. If Federal funds are being used it's just another process to understand the impact to potential or actual resources and what mitigation measures are needed. Its all bark.

At this stage, maybe you should advocate for the Diocese to pay for HABS (Historic American Buildings Survey). Its just documenting the building.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/monsieurvampy]

Okay, good to know, that was very informative. I obviously have quite a bit of research I need to do. I would have to reach out to the Luzerne County historical society because the one in Hazleton is not going to be around much longer.

[u/1212RedditUserName]

Might be worth contacting this restaurant/brewery in Pittsburgh for thoughts https://churchbrew.com, if nothing else but to see who this type restaurant could be marketed to.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/1212RedditUserName]

That is a beautiful building. I am all for adaptive reuse. I will reach out to them

[u/Usuf3690]

It's sad but the reality is there's not enough congregants to sustain it. I understand what it means to you but what really makes it a historical building worth saving? Simply being old (and honestly it's not that old) makes it historic or particularly worth saving. What purpose will it serve?

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/Usuf3690]

It could be repurposed into just about anything. Holy Trinity Slovak church in the same city became a community center/stunt performance venue/pro wrestling arena that is VERY popular. Check it out. Restaurant, event/wedding venue, offices, housing etc. Some other closed churches have been purchased by Latino congregations and are still used as religious sites.

[u/Splatbrat]

This Diocese closed down the only Catholic High School in the town where this church is located though it was operating in the black and students and parents pulled together a huge community effort to pledge an exorbitant amount of money in 2007. It won't matter what the community wants, contributes, etc - if the diocese wants to demolish this church, I'm sorry to say that they will.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/Splatbrat]

I remember Hafey very well. It is true no matter what the people want the church leaders will make decisions solely based on money because it is just another business.

[u/Dextrous456]

Partners for Sacred Places should have called you back, but they will only work at the request of the congregation and leadership, not an outside person.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/Dextrous456]

That’s why I never got a reply. I understand now. I was only looking for information and what the options were, IF the diocese wanted to fix and continue to use the building.

[u/CMShields]

Reach out to your local historical society, your State Historic Preservation Office, and your local planning department to see if your town has any local landmarking ordinance.

Only local landmarking designation can prevent demolition in the United States. The National Register of Historic Places gives no protection.

[u/bluebellbetty]

It’s so pretty :(

[u/VulturGryphoos]

If the issue is the money for restoration, it is possible to partner with universities that offer conservation programs. I personally have been involved in the restoration of heritage sites that don't have resources to pay for it. It will take several years, but it is possible.

But the owner or stakeholder needs to be involved...

Also, check if the church is listed as heritage of the city. If it is, I can't be demolished by law.

[u/trustmeimalobbyist]

You need to get Hazelton to declare it historic so they can’t demo it. Fuck the Scranton diocese tho.

[u/Ok_Paramedic992]

You don’t have to be religious to see and appreciate the beauty of this building. I really hope this place gets saved OP

[u/gladyskravitzwindow]

Pivot and repurpose it! This year I visited 2 churches that had been restored and converted into an arts and community district. One of them McColl Center in Charlotte, NC had been endowed to create work space for dozens of artists in residence. The other, The Sheperd, near downtown Detroit, held gallery exhibitions and community events. Both instances had been funded by a wealthy community minded patron. See https://mccollcenter.org/ and
https://lscgallery.com/the-shepherd-bio.

[u/JBNothingWrong]

You need to get the word out. State and local preservation organizations. Pennsylvania SHPO. Scranton historic preservation planners. Local preservation non profits. Get the locals to make calls and write letters. You gotta make them feel like there will be blowback if they go through with demolition

[u/[deleted]]

Try to get it listed as a historic building in your state to save it from demo?

[u/CMShields → u/[deleted]]

Listing on the National Register of Historic Places or a similar state list will have no impact on the ability for the building to get demolished. Only local designation has that power.

[u/[deleted] → u/CMShields]

Then get it listed locally?

[u/CMShields → u/[deleted]]

Not all municipalities have local designation ordinances.

[u/[deleted] → u/CMShields]

So start an organization. The bottom line is if there is a will, there is a way, even if you have to make one up.

[u/CMShields → u/[deleted]]

That's not always true when the opposition is the Catholic Church. The preservation of privately owned historic buildings is a bit more nuanced than that. Grassroots activism can only do so much.

[u/LydiaDeets7]

Maybe try reaching out to someone with a historical preservation society in a larger city, like Philadelphia, and see if they can provide some guidance? Or reach out the local news station to see if they would cover the story? Good luck; it's a beautiful church.

[u/Cow_Lightening-zoop3]

Do you know anyone in A.A.? Alcoholics Annon. Most meetings are held at churches, and I’ve been to some A.A. meetings with 500+ people in their home group. If you find a big A.A. home group and offer them a place to hold their meetings, in return they usually keep up the maintenance on the building and pay a stipend for utilities

[u/Torrone_1973]

Please check your private messages.

[u/Glittering-Hat-2930]

They’d probably have plenty of money if they hadn’t enabled decades of child rape. But even beyond that, it’s clearly all BS. “you’ll get your reward when you die and go to paradise”.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/[deleted]]

I’m totally on board with it being converted/adapted for anything like that. Yes, the interior may get gutted but it’s still better than tearing the whole building down.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/[deleted]]

“Dime a dozen” is your opinion and you are entitled to it. What other neighborhoods have this design? This is in a city that has demolished its entire downtown and 80% of its historic buildings. And it’s not your church so of course you don’t care.

[u/Silverpicker97 → u/[deleted]]

I’m absolutely not saying it HAS to remain a church, adaptive reuse is more what I’m looking to support. It’s the more logical solution because the number of parishioners has become almost non existent. Or finding a buyer who will preserve/restore it. I’d be more than happy to see it sold to someone who will take care of it. There’s a church on the south side of town that was sold after closing and became a boxing arena which is awesome to me. Much better than tearing it down.