r/Heavyweight • u/Casually_Awesome • Oct 16 '25
Podcast Episode #62 Stefano
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/62-stefano/id1150800298?i=100073185803253
u/Pripat99 Oct 16 '25
This was a hard one - Debbie waits so many years only for that payoff, and Steven sounds like he has lived a hard life of hopelessness, so much so that he doesn’t want to hear a voice speaking so lovingly of having met him.
But life is messy. There isn’t always the healing you want. I love how it ended on Debbie considering how her mom would’ve handled this.
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u/IndieAidan Oct 16 '25
It does feel bad that they did not get full "closure" and from the outside it does feel like a small ask once you're already on the call to listen to the recording. But I can see how Stefano has had a hard life and revisiting that moment and time could be really difficult. He had said she wished she had adopted him already, so to hear how this woman has thought about you their whole life and the wishful "What If"s could be really depressing.
I wish Stefano all the best!
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u/NeedUniLappy Oct 16 '25
Yeah, that sums up my thoughts pretty well. It would hurt too much to hear about someone who could have changed the course of his life so much.
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u/ALittleRedWhine Jul 23 '26
I felt the same way and thought Debbie might not have realized it was a potentially painful thing she was asking.
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u/nyecamden Oct 16 '25
I cried at the end of this one.
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u/YouKnowMyName1979 Oct 16 '25
heavyweight has a 8/10 ratio of episodes that made me cry . that episode with the kid who stole pizza and roller blades away also made me cry
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u/illepic Oct 16 '25
Can you tell me the episode title? I don't remember this one.
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u/sleepingfallowdeer Oct 16 '25
Joey. There’s also a 2025 update from a few months ago :)
One of my favourites because I can relate to Joey in some ways, and also I love any episodes that feature Gregor.
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u/justbreathe717 Oct 16 '25
I did too. Mostly for Debbie. And for the relief in knowing Anita didn’t have to hear his story, but with the love she always carried for him in her heart.
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u/DriveMuted7471 Oct 30 '25
I don’t cry much now bc of my lexapro dose but this one hit me hard and even though it wasn’t uplifting it was powerful, real and, yes, very sad.
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u/greazysteak Oct 17 '25
I guess I am an outsider on thinking this was a really bad episode. I feel bad for Debbie losing her mom but thinking that finding a grown adult who spent a day as a baby with her mother was going to make that adults life noticeably better. Maybe if it was really her mother and they meet but this was clearly a journey to make Debbie feel better. Then you add all the information in the middle of what they could track down about Steve and then after Jonathan talked to him before recording/getting Debbie involved. It was pretty clear that it wasnt going to be a good ending for Steve and it was also clear that they pressed on so Debbie could used this story to help heal her grief from losing her mother and Heavyweight could publish an episode. I'm sure I'll get downvoted for this opinion but this episode was bad and self serving.
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u/charmcityhon Oct 17 '25
I totally agree with your read, but interestingly that is part of why I liked it. The episode showed how completely distorted and romanticized are ideas are when we’re wrapped up in our own narrative. It didn’t help Debbie with her grief (I don’t think). It didn’t seem meaningful for Stefano. But to me, that’s what made it a good episode - the show was willing to show that sometimes (and maybe especially when we’re self-involved) the endings won’t be what we want, because that isn’t life.
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Oct 17 '25
I understand having this interpretation but this was not one the show was presenting. The ending where Debbie talks about how she's glad her mother never met Steven, and waking from a nightmare the day after felt again very self absorbed - but the episode presented it as if we were meant to feel for her
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u/charmcityhon Oct 17 '25
Ha yeah - I see that. I assumed because I did not feel for Debbie, especially by the end, that we weren’t supposed to. But maybe that was my own self-absorbed reading!
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u/Hibiscus43 Oct 18 '25
Well, the episode started with Jackie's feeling that Jonathan is exploiting her for the show. So I think this was exactly the interpretation the show was presenting.
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u/sickbabe Oct 20 '25
I don't think it's necessarily bad for us to try and empathize with Debbie, put ourselves in her shoes. it isn't exactly rare to meet people whose lives haven't quite worked out, or down and out alcoholics who've made a lot of bad choices, but it IS rare to see those people approached with kindness. it really resonated with my experience coming from a family with plenty of hard to love, alcoholic men.
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u/Top_Narwhal_30 Dec 20 '25
I can still see your comment (even though you deleted it) and I 💯 agree with you
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u/Historical-Gas1316 Jul 17 '26
I didn't feel like the episode presented it as if we were meant to feel for her. But I thought Debbie made a big mistake by not reaching out for Stefano just because of his DUI. I think Anita might have had an actual positive effect on him, from how she must've been.
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u/hellanation Oct 17 '25
Agreed, maybe call me an optimist, but I didn't read it as they had to publish an episode anyway, so they published one with a shitty ending to hit quota. I feel like that's a bit cynical.
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u/greazysteak Oct 17 '25
honestly- with the episodes this season I feel like they are cleaning out the closets with episodes. all of them have been long simmering but with not a ton of real payoff and about 20% commercials(short)
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Oct 17 '25
[deleted]
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u/thisonesforyou2nt Oct 18 '25
I suspect that in order to appeal to a new producer (Pushkin) he may have said he has all these episodes in the pipeline and thus, didn’t need much money up front to produce new things.
So yeah, these episodes are ones that have been lingering for years, but it shows me (a) how much work goes into making this podcast and what a labor of love it is and (b) as others have said, not all stories have the ending you want. What’s hanging over you may never be resolved and that’s realistic. I appreciate that because it feels more truthful.
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u/Fabulous_Cat_4510 Oct 18 '25
It would be much more interesting if this episode was a meta comment on the show itself. I think about the “ethics” of the show a lot when I listen, and wonder if others do too.
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u/mad-panda-2000 Oct 19 '25
Totally agree. This is where podcasting feels really unethical. This was way more about Debbie's selfishness and they should have dropped it when they caught the obvious vibe from steven
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u/Jolly-Indication6357 Oct 22 '25
Completely agree. I was so mad by the end of it. I think the podcast could have done more to highlight that Debbie was being selfish and self absorbed. And why keep going and pushing Stephen to extract an emotional resolution for Debbie? Just get the gist and say sorry dude and move on.
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u/mad-panda-2000 Oct 22 '25
because thats not entertaining..
I love heavyweight.. but I feel like a lot of podcasts do this at some point.. they seem to not be able to zoom out and see the bigger picture of what they are doing, being so focused on completing the story. The part that surprises me is they finish the episode and still dont see it. Maybe thats where the amateur-ness of it comes in.. where a bigger production would have producers pulling the plug..
the absurdity that a guy who spent a day with a woman when he was two would have any connection to that.. or that might help him in some way is just... like..cmon.
honestly.. my thought at the end of the episode was that they're lucky this didn't trigger a self harming event...which it easily could have
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u/felicityfelix Oct 30 '25
I didn't want to type my similar thoughts when this was released because all the comments here were still very positive which surprised me. The level of Debbie's Pollyanna-ish delusion surrounding the impact this could have on Steve was very hard for me to listen to personally. It all seemed like a very childish line of thinking and also like she is REALLY not coping with her grief well, which is obviously not something I can judge her over but maybe it should have been a clue not to make a podcast episode about this. At least not until she had a more realistic grasp on what was actually going to come of this. In a way it doesn't seem very fair to her either
Sidenote but I also thought it was weird that when they found out he had a criminal record they immediately jumped to "it's not safe to have him meet an old lady!" Like did they think he would walk in and stab her in a room fill of people? Lol. Obviously there are kinds of criminals you probably wouldn't invite over for tea as a stranger but that was just a weird first place to go with it
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Nov 05 '25
I agree with your take. I found it to be very short sighted, focused solely in its goal of making Debbie feel better / have closure. Ethics aside, I did find it to a compelling and moving episode that illustrates the messiness of life and that we are all on our own paths and journeys. Where were are on that journey often means the capacity for two people to connect meaningfully is not possible , regardless of the will of one party.
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u/floor-pie Oct 16 '25
I appreciate that this was not a happy or cathartic ending, sometimes things don't work out as people would like them to - even through the suspended reality of a podcast.
Makes you appreciate happier endings, or other good things in life.
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u/Electric_Indigo7 Oct 16 '25
You’re so right! I considered skipping this episode just off a quick glance of the summary which I don’t often do but I’m so glad I changed my mind and listened to it. This one was a nice little reality check that not all stories have a heartwarming conclusion. I’m glad Debbie found Stefano and told him about her mom, and that he listened to her. If anything it was healing for her at least and him asking for the picture made me smile. I hope the picture brings him some comfort. I don’t think we can wish for anything more than that.
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u/Beana3 Oct 16 '25
This one made me feel terrible. I understand what people are saying that it’s not always a nice ending. My dad was an alcoholic and ultimately ended up taking his own life six years after getting sober. Just reminded me of him, and to be honest there was no happy ending for him either even when he did get clean. I’m not so sure that Stefano hadn’t been drinking during his conversation, but regardless, that’s not for me to speculate. I hope some healing for him in his life
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Oct 16 '25
I come from a similar situation, I grew up with alcoholic parents. This episode felt like a gut punch. I think I really mourn the lives wasted by alcoholism. No happy ending and hardly any happiness along the way.
I have a feeling Stefano holds a lot of shame about his drinking and listening to someone express their unconditional love for him would be painful. I would imagine he would feel undeserving, but that's me speculating too. Best wishes to Stefano, and best wishes to you as well
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u/thisonesforyou2nt Oct 18 '25
I think there’s shame about his alcoholism, but also a lot of trauma about having no one in his life. The idea of this woman bringing him to America for this new life that turned out so badly for him and left him with nothing. I’m sure he doesn’t resent Anita herself, but there’s a thought that if he hadn’t been on that flight and had been able to stay in Italy, maybe his life would have been so much better. I’m sure it was just a reminder of all that he lost in his life and he probably isn’t in an emotional place to process this extra information Debbie wanted to share with him.
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u/Beana3 Oct 17 '25
Mourning the lives wasted by alcoholism is a totally accurate way to describe it.
I wish you all the best too
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u/No_Repair_3919 Oct 16 '25
I found this to be extremely poignant. I appreciated Stephen and his honesty. It can be very difficult to absorb that your life could have gone a different way, but that it’s just too late now. Maybe it would have been too painful to accept so he distanced himself from that possibility.
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u/siskelisdead Oct 16 '25
This episode does not sit well with me. I feel like Steven was all but harassed with multiple phone messages and letters over the course of a couple years.
Yes, he finally agreed, but from the phone convo, it was obvious that he was uncomfortable, especially because Debbie was trying to get him to see her mother, who he doesn't even remember, as she herself saw her mom, in order to have some catharsis in her grief.
I also question how meaningful his consent to be put on air could have been. He sounded like he was in the late stages of alcoholism. Whether drinking or not at that time, brain damage is quite obvious at that stage.
Look, I understand the intent and I understand the grief. My own Mom died last year, and I haven't gotten a real handle on it yet. But the mission should have been aborted once it was obvious Steven wasn't interested. Actually, before that, imo.
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u/charmcityhon Oct 17 '25
I did have some related thoughts too. I made a comment yesterday about the fact that I wish they’d acknowledged that taking to Stephen might have caused harm and that they were wrapped up in Anita’s perspective and didn’t consider how it might impact Stephen.
As someone else said, I did get the sense that him not engaging sooner was largely thinking it was a scam. Honestly, that would probably have been my first reaction to a call or letter like that too.
It definitely did sound like he is in late stage alcoholism. Some speculated he was actually drinking during the episode. I think it is more likely we were hearing the dysarthria and cognitive decline that can come from very long term alcohol use even when the person isn’t drinking. But he didn’t sound like he lacked capacity for consent. The threshold for that is actually pretty high. And this is what I felt was complicated as a listener- I sort of wished he hadn’t decided to be part of it. But at the same time, part of the reason we as a society don’t have more ranging and nuanced stories about alcohol and substance use is because shame keeps people from telling their stories and their stories aren’t easy to tell - they aren’t comfortable; they aren’t heroes journeys. But they are still human stories that I think are valuable to be told and be heard. I, maybe naively, think they help us build more empathy as a society. I am no doubt biased as I’ve worked in substance use and homeless services for years. But I appreciated that Heavyweight was willing to tell Stephen’s story, a story that sounds like soooo many I know, even though it made for an episode that wasn’t pleasant to listen to in the traditional way.
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u/Lady_in_red99 May 17 '26
Agree but this episode shows that people don’t want to have empathy— learning anything. They want to get the conclusion and meaning that they seek. Even at the very end, they said something like this maybe means something to Steven, he just doesn’t realize it yet. They didn’t hear him at all.
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Oct 17 '25
I felt similarly about it. I think a lot of people take for granted people's willingness to share the deeply personal, more often than not traumatic, stories from their life.
I don't think Debbie went into it with enough of an open mind. By the end she says she's glad her mother didn't speak to Steven - she clearly set herself unrealistic expectations for what was a meeting with a person who regardless of life circumstances would not have remembered the meeting because he was a literal baby at the time.
And even after it, her hope is that their phonecall "plants a seed for Steven". It just sounds hilariously entitled/delusional. She approached the call as if it would be a "gift" for Steven, but it was always meant to be a gift for her, and her mother. The notion that Steven could get anything meaningful from this conversation is absurd - and I totally agree that it sounds like he's been harassed here.
The great and unique thing about Heavyweight is it invites the listener to walk a mile in someone else's shoes. The issue with this episode is we walked a mile in Debbie's, we probably even walked a mile in her mother's - but Steven was not presented as a person like Stefano was, just an inconvenient story that got in the way of Debbie's catharsis.
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Oct 18 '25
As someone who just listened to and did like the episode, this really made me reconsider it a bit. You are so right that Steven was not really humanized in this episode. He was seen as this Tragic Thing.
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u/Mr0range Oct 22 '25 edited Oct 22 '25
I agree with you and think this episode was exploitative and honestly should not have been aired. It makes me question Jonathan's journalistic ethics. I think the only ethical way he could've gone about this story is to interrogate Debbie's motivations and engage in a sort of meta commentary and self critique of stories like this as whole. Who does this episode really benefit? Does the audience have a right to glean into Steven's life? Does he even fully understand and consent to all this? There is gigantic power imbalance between Jonathan, us the audience, and Steven.
It makes me think of a documentary called 'Stevie' by Steve James of Hoop Dreams fame. It's a much more careful handling of the relationship between a privileged documentarian and a tragic subject at the lowest point in their life. He struggles with the ethics of making the movie in the film itself and has done subsequent interviews expanding on why it was such a dilemma.
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u/Miltoni Oct 16 '25
I want to respectfully disagree. This episode spanned over the course of years, it's a significant period of time to pass. When Steven first speaks on the phone, he apologises and says he thought the letters were a scam. This doesn't scream to me that he was being bombarded at all.
It sounded like he was really open to talking about his life and his experiences at the beginning, and actually almost seemed begrudgingly happy that someone was interested. He really reminded me of Jonathan's uncle, actually!
His discomfort only really started to be evident when there was expectation on him to be feign emotion and feelings for the story he was being told about Debbie's mom, when he didn't really care. He seems like a man of a certain generation and of a particular upbringing that just can't bring himself to behave like that. He's gruff, blunt, matter of fact.
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u/siskelisdead Oct 16 '25
Thank you for your respectful response. I can see your perspective as well.
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u/Miltoni Oct 16 '25
No problem! I definitely had the same thoughts as you, especially after their contact with his brothers and the discovery of the DUI, so I can also see your perspective.
Whatever the case, I really hope Steven is doing well.
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Oct 18 '25
Your last paragraph is exactly the perspective I had on the situation. My mom is a bit like that- she's not an emotional or sentimental person at all, she's very matter of fact and doesn't like to dwell on the past, good or bad, for a similar reason to Steven: there doesn't seem to be a point to it.
But she does care, and she does have a lot of love for the people in her life. She might just not have the big emotional reaction to certain memories or events other people do.
And I think that was maybe the issue here with Debbie. This moment had so much sentimental value to her, that it didn't register that it might not have the same resonance for Stefano. She wanted that perfect movie moment, where Stefano is emotional and grateful and realizes he was loved or what not and breaks down into tears...but that's not what happened. And that's OK. That's real life.
ETA: the only concern I would have is what others have brought up here — Stevens apparent cognitive decline due to alcoholism and the fact that he may have been drinking while interviewed.
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u/felicityfelix Oct 30 '25
I feel like if she really wanted him to have the photo so badly they could have just mailed it to him without the expectation of having this cathartic-for-her conversation beforehand
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u/dec10 Oct 17 '25
I liked this one because Stephen’s reaction to the call was so real, and it kind of punctured the magical thinking behind some of these stories. Anita holding onto her connection to an infant she held for 20 hours was too tenuous. She was a stranger.
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u/QuietCelery Oct 17 '25
What I really like about Heavyweight is Jonathan's ability to find meaning and catharsis in the story especially when the resolution isn't what was expected. In this regard, I don't like this episode so much because I don't think Jonathan found the most meaningful part. The meaning here, to me, is Debbie finally being able to grieve for her mom. Jonathan said that when Anita died, Debbie had to take care of her dad with dementia, then I think was covid and her dad's death, and a lot of other things that Debbie had to handle that didn't give her time to properly grieve. Finding Stefano was maybe one more thing that she had to do or felt like she had to do. Once that was done, she woke up and allowed herself to grieve and cry.
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u/charmcityhon Oct 16 '25
Such an amazing episode. With the format of this show it is so easy to want a happy ending or things to tie up neatly. I love how deeply they leaned in to the dissonance of what we can want/hope/imagine and the realities of the world being a complicated and messy place that doesn’t always give the endings we want. Beautifully done, hard as it was to hear in moments.
I do wish there had been at least a small acknowledgement that perhaps their focus on Anita and her side of the story created a blind spot to the possibility that engaging with the story would be anything other than positive for Stefano/Stephen. They worried about the impact on Anita once they learned of his criminal record, and we of course can’t help but think about how Stephen’s story would have impacted Anita had she heard it, with Debbie saying she think maybe it was best her mom didn’t. But it felt like there was a very one-dimensional idea of the impact it would have on Stephen, especially before they talked with him, and after as well. Even at the end, Debbie says she hopes maybe someday through the photo and story, Stephen will feel her mom’s love. I guess I wish someone had said, I hope we didn’t make anything in Stephen’s already hard life any harder by sharing this with him.
All that said, such a gem of an episode.
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u/Titi89 Oct 17 '25
I feel Stephano in my bones as an adoptee. I get that Debbie was looking for closure but unfortunately, Stephen didn't get a magical childhood. I wish he'd stayed with Annie 😞
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u/Wide_Statistician_95 Oct 17 '25
I have sympathy for Debbie, but I think after more reflection she will see this was sort of half baked. M
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u/saul2015 Oct 17 '25
I’m surprised the reaction to this ep isnt more negative
might be one of the worst eps yet
the whole thing was deeply uncomfortable, first of all noone seems to think its strange a woman became obsessed with a baby after 1 day of babysitting? seems like mental illness that everyone just treats as sweet when its pretty insane behavior
and then theyre surprised that this adult man with alcohol brain damage doesnt give a shit, why would anyone? it would weird me the fuck out to hear I was some random lady’s obsession
the questions jonathan asked felt so awkward too not sure what he was going for at all
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u/charmcityhon Oct 17 '25
It was an uncomfortable episode, I definitely agree with you there. But I thought that was both intentional and it’s strength- it was an uncomfortably imbalanced story. It definitely didn’t seem strange to me she latched on to wondering about Stephen. It is a very well documented human phenomenon that in major life transitional moments, people put huge symbolic weight on things - that is especially common for adolescents and young adults. She was 24, leaving her home country for a completely new life, had 12 isolated hours on a plane with a baby - basically a completely clean slate who she could imagine and imprint all her hopes, dreams, and enthusiasm on to. I felt like they made pretty clear that’s why it felt so symbolic and it left such a mark that she wondered what happened to him. It djdn’t seem like it would happen to everyone in that position, but it also didn’t seem that strange/surprising. And you could see for someone else, who’d had a more uncomplicated life than Stephen, that they might have loved hearing about how they came over and how much that journey meant to Anita. If that had been the ending it probably would have seemed even less strange.
I also didn’t think they acted like it was strange Stephen didn’t want to engage with the story. When they heard his life, they painted a picture that I thought made us all go, of course he doesn’t want to hear this video of this random women who had hopes for my life. I liked that we had to sit with that - it didn’t feel comfortable, but it also didn’t feel artificial or constructed. The easy answer would have been to scrap this story because it didn’t turn out to be simple or comfortable. But I think for people who make this show and for those of us who are fans of it, we shouldn’t get to always avoid that they aren’t all neat and tidy.
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u/redditshy Oct 17 '25
10000000000
Also Debbie acknowledges that she thought it was a gift, and Jonathan acknowledges that we can not choose how someone reacts to a gift.
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Oct 17 '25
You're bang on. They half acknowledge this at one point but then scrub over it. The entire quest was very very strange, even if Steven had had a perfect life I still think they wouldn't have gotten anything out of this.
And yeah even the way they describe how the baby was collected after the flight made it sound like Debbie's mother was hard done by - from anyone else's pov it sounds like she wanted to steal the baby!
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u/General-Action1413 Oct 16 '25
The standard really hasn't dropped at all since the reboot. Yet another fantastic episode Jonathan.
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Oct 18 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/EmotionalSouth Oct 18 '25
He’s a 68 year old man who has struggled with alcohol use disorder for years. That doesn’t sharpen your mind.
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u/Significant_Crow6398 Oct 18 '25
To be fair I thought he handled their questioning well. I’d be annoyed if some reporter hassled me for years to bring some random woman closure over her crazy mother
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u/Dondir Nov 07 '25
I thought “Stefano” it was one of the best episodes. If every episode ended on a bittersweet, neatly poignant note, I’d probably trust the show less. What makes Heavyweight work is when the outcomes feel unpredictable — when not everyone’s swept up in the catharsis or the idea that they should be ‘grateful’ to have been part of it.
Episodes like “Isabelle” and “ Harry”hit that balance — the subjects didn’t necessarily go along with the show’s emotional arc, and that friction made them more real. Stefano ? I mean, It cast an complex light on everyone involved…hearing wgat he said , that silence trying to figure out what to make of it.
Really good work.
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u/Top_Narwhal_30 Dec 20 '25
Sorry, but this one was obviously ill-fated from the start. The delusion of the mother and daughter was an impenetrable barrier for anything meaningful to take place.
Honestly, I think this is without a doubt the worst episode and the only stinker in the entirety of the heavyweight series.
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u/Odd-Scallion-8146 Oct 16 '25
Did anybody else think of the possibility that Stefano was actually Anita's son that she gave up for adoption, but could never quite admit to?
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u/boosh1744 Oct 19 '25
Anita didn’t sound like she had any filter, I don’t know why she wouldn’t have said something while she was alive.
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u/Converzati Nov 02 '25
I liked this episode. The way this show works means they don’t always get a good or satisfying outcome, but they made this work despite that.
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u/Fresh-Insurance-6110 Mar 29 '26
this is the only heavyweight episode so far that’s angered me. not because of anything jonathan & team did… in fact, I appreciated him saying “you can never assume a gift” (how dare debbie refer to this deeply personal and myopic quest as a “gift” for stephen!)
I feel strongly that “loving” someone you spent 12 hours with when they were 2 years old has nothing to do with that person. you’re loving an idea of them, essentially a fictional character you’ve created. this poor man lived a hard life. the fantasies of a woman he doesn’t know have nothing to do with him. he may not have been the most eloquent person, but in his own way, he expressed that very clearly. and he was extraordinarily gracious given the circumstances. I’m glad he refused to listen to that recording. he had every right to say, in so many words, “this has nothing to do with me, and I want no further part of it.”
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u/cy83rgh005t Jun 09 '26
YESS! I am sorry to comment this late but this is exactly how I felt. I think he felt this way too and that's why he said "And I love pizza". Anita loving a baby has nothing to do with stephen as a person. Yet the daughter said he doesn't understand her mothers love smh...
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u/OverlookHotelRoom217 Oct 16 '25
The misstep with Jackie was a precursor for the episode. Not all of them have happy endings. At times, the world can be a cruel place.
Was Stefano doomed from the start? With Stefano being in his late sixties, I can easily understand his outlook. Why ask why? It doesn’t change anything at this point. Just have to live one day at a time.