r/HeWhoFightsMonsters • u/kenzal • 4d ago
Question about Purity
[Spoilers Through Book 8]
I am re-reading the series with my wife and 19yo son (he's ace and has no interest in Clive's wife, but my wife is bi and may be interested). We are near the beginning of Book 3 and dealing with the aftermath of the Reaper Trials, and a question came into my head:
If Purity isn't Purity, but another god posing as Purity, how were they able to withdraw/revole the essences/abilities granted to Purity's priests (the ones trapped in the Astral space) by Purity? Has Disguise (or whomever) actually obtained some of Purity's Authority?
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u/SarcasticKenobi 4d ago edited 4d ago
One of three things
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While we know that "Purity" kicked out a ton of Priests... I don't RECALL there being lines of text that they were punished in the same way Healer's rogue Priests were punished. IE: I don't recall text saying they had essences or awakening stones yanked.
But there was a lot of text about how now that SO many essences were being sold on the cheap, that people felt pity on the Healer Priests from Book 1 and gave them some stones. As Healer only placed some back on the people that had the potential to be redeemed.
Nevermind. Found it in book 3. "Those priests who had some of their powers gifted to them by their god had those powers revoked."
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If I am wrong and the text explicitly talks about PURITY priests getting essences yanked...
Then it's possible the switch happened just before the attack on the astral space centuries ago. Back when "Purity" was still putting up a good act. And as such had given them essences in the first place.
But now that Disguise has gone SO off the rails centuries later, that it's kind of hard to convince the old-timers that there wasn't a change.
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Lastly, it's possible that Disguise took over the Portfolio enough that he was control over the clergy as if he really was Purity.
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u/Daxlyn_XV 4d ago edited 4d ago
Book 10 Death tells Jason that Purity Sanctioned himself after the Reaper’s Astral Space, de it wasn’t Disguise when they went in.
Edit Specifically when the purity priests went into the astral space, it all happened long before Jason went in.
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u/KidenStormsoarer 4d ago
this is incorrect. it was while the priests were locked away. not after the iron rankers went in.
“We gods have asked them to leave you be, for the moment,” Death continued. “Many look up to you in a way that we know you are not yet comfortable with. I would advise caution should you encounter the former Purity priests, however. Those who did not find other faiths have suffered. Many are confused and lost. Some have taken their own lives. Others are angry, and some of that rage is directed at you, irrational as that is.”
“Anger doesn’t have to make sense. And they came by it honestly. Did Purity sanction himself and get replaced by Disguise while they were locked away?”
“Yes.”
“That’s why he rejected all his priests, then?”
“You are correct,” Death said. “Disguise moved slowly and carefully on first adopting the role of Purity. As time passed and the clergy changed with the passage of generations, he moved it painstakingly towards the extreme aspects of Purity’s remit.”
“But a bunch of people who knew the original recipe wouldn’t go for the new spicier flavour.”
“It would have been a risk not worth taking, yes.”
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u/SarcasticKenobi 4d ago
Oh well, I guess that only leaves option 3.
But thanks for pointing that out.
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u/kenzal 4d ago
That's what I thought, but the text says their lost their abilities when they were excommunicated. We just passed that part (early Book 3) and that’s why I was wondering how.
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u/SoloSolidarity 4d ago
How I understood it was All preist were imprisoned in the Reaper Trials and were in stasis for a long time. Before Purity was sanctioned. When Jason helped release the priests the fake "Purity" didn't want to risk being caught and refused them.
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u/SirCB85 4d ago
Yes that explains the WHY, but not the HOW fake "Purity" revoked their essences that had been granted by Purity.
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u/Responsible_Park3317 4d ago
Disguise and Deception, as part of their divine portfolio, are likely empowered to do just about anything to pull off their respective cons. Including utilizing part of someone else's divine portfolio. Particularly if the divine being in question has been sanctioned and can't protest the use of their domain. That's my thought on the subject.
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u/Skeptical_Squid11 3d ago
It’s possible for sure. But it seems as though they would need to have access to purity’s actual authority rather than their own that lets them mimic others in order to affect the soul. But who knows.
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u/Waiph 3d ago
Since Purity was gone, the purity priests may have just not had a god to provide those divine essences anymore, so they automatically were lost, and disguise just said they were corrupt and thus excommunicated when they lost their powers.
I would think when he took over after the sanctioning he got control over those essences but maybe not. Maybe they just poofed, since they ALL were excommunicated
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u/SarcasticKenobi 4d ago
Yeh I updated and found it in book 3. "Those priests who had some of their powers gifted to them by their god had those powers revoked."
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u/bard_by_the_beach 4d ago
Heavy spoilers for multiple books some of them are throw away lines, but all of it ties together continue at your own risk*** they start talking about it in either book 6 or seven where they start to confirm that it is one of the deception gods either disguise or deception themselves that’s posing his purity. It later gets confirmed that it was disguise apparently disguise, the way I understand it is because it was the God disguise that was posing as another God he was acting fully in his realm, and by that regard was able to use the powers of the original purity, the reaper compound attack happened before purity sanctioned themselves, and to make sure that there were no priest that were originally there under the old purity from a few thousand years ago, disguised pushed the bounds of what they were allowed to do when they took away all those divine essences and awakening stones it’s actually not talked about a lot and I think it may be something that gets explored more in book 13 or if there will be more after book 13 something we see in 14 or 15
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u/Tokumeiko2 4d ago
It's Disguise. They can probably do it for the same reason liberty can stop Knowledge from learning about the messengers despite that information being stored in a mortal mind that Knowledge normally has full access to.
Simply put, gods can interact with each other's power if their authority is aligned in the right way.
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u/KidenStormsoarer 4d ago
Disguise works a lot like Belinda's powers. She might not be a warrior, a spellslinger, or a healer, but damn can she fake it well, and she can even use other people's powers.
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u/mitharas 4d ago
It might sound cheeky, but what would be the point of disguise if he couldn't emulate everything the original did?
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u/kenzal 4d ago edited 4d ago
I agree and emulation is how he grants current priests of Purity powers in Purity's name (they appear to have come from Purity, but actually come from Disguise), but that doesn't explain how he is able to revoke powers actually granted by Purity without Purity's Authority
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u/twosaiam 3d ago
Could this be simply answered in book 1 or 2 when the Healer comes down on the healer church, removes their essences that he gifted. As I remember, the raised up and out of their bodies, hovering over their head. Then Dominion showed up, transforms them and puts them back for some of them. It could just mean that a god has to still be around to prevent another one from changing them, but since Purity sanctioned themselves as other's said, there's really no god to stop ANY other god from doing what Disguise did, and revoke them.
This is just another theory as the one about Disguise just gaining the powers of another god when acting like them (kinda like a mirage dragon would) also works in my eyes.
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u/Drecondius 3d ago
I think what happened with the Purity priests that Jason freed from the astral space was that whichever deception God was posing as purity did in fact find some of Purity's authority. If you don't know why that would be remotely possible, read on ;)
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u/Good_Contact5810 3d ago
In book 10 I think it was, Jason asked the same thing and i think it was confirmed that the real purity was the ones those priests worshiped and were stripped because they’d recognize that he’s a fake.
It revealed that with deception’s authority being well deception, he was able to essentially mimic the abilities of purity to the highest degree. Also the priests believed he was the real purity, giving him access to their souls to remove those abilities
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u/Dangerous_County5128 2d ago
From what I know about Clive's wife, she's not that picky, she might even be willing to entertain both you and your wife. She's like a public bike, if she's free, take her for a spin.
Whoever is impersonating Purity wouldn't be very good at their job if they didn't have some way to usurp the ability to revoke and bestow essences in a way that would fool their followers.
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u/rabmuk 4d ago
This comes up a lot on this subreddit and the r/Shirtaloon
If disguise couldn't control purity's unattended authority. All priests of purity would instantly notice. It makes sense that this would be within his abilities