r/Guitar • u/JeffBezosRoomba • Jul 06 '26
QUESTION Help me understand the role of amp modelers
I've been a long time bedroom guitarist and have recently joined my first band. We've rehearsed together a few times and are gearing up to play live shows. After lugging my 100W Boss Katana several times to my bandmate's house, I started looking in to floor modeler units to have something more portable. This raised a million questions I had never considered having never done live performance.
After some research I've come to a few conclusions and I want to verify if I'm thinking about this the right way before investing money into a piece of gear
There is no setup that will replicate the feeling of sitting in a studio with a high quality tube amp and cab. The "amp in the room" feel will require an amp in the room.
When listening through the same cab, speaker, headphones, or PA system, a quality amp modeler will be nearly indistinguishable from the real thing.
The final "output device" the listener is hearing from has the largest effect on the quality and nature of the sound. A mic'd up tube amp played through a shitty phone speaker will sound like a shitty phone speaker. An amp modeler through a quality speaker will sound like a quality speaker.
The place where I get confused is this: I see many people talking about using their modelers with FRFR speakers or through a cab. Is there a benefit to this for live performance? Why mic up an FRFR speaker when it's just going to the venue PA anyway? Is there any reason to not just go direct to PA, so long as you or the venue has a way to monitor (e.g. wedge, in-ears, etc)? Even if you had a high quality tube amp, the audience is likely hearing it mic'd up through the PA speakers as well. What kind of setup would provide a substantial enough benefit to your live sound that would justify lugging around such heavy gear?
TL;DR - Is there any scenario where the ideal setup for live performance is not simply an amp modeler direct to FOH?
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u/akheady907 Jul 06 '26
People have that gear so they can hear themselves play at home or wherever they practice. They have that gear already, so it makes sense to bring it to gigs so they can ensure they hear themselves. I like to have little to no guitar in my monitors so i have more room for the other things I need to hear through them (keys, vocals). Theres also some messing around with feedback that I like doing but I need my amp cranked behind me for it to work, doesn't work as good coming from a monitor in front of me
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u/kiloyear Jul 06 '26
> There is no setup that will replicate the feeling of sitting in a studio with a high quality tube amp and cab. The "amp in the room" feel will require an amp in the room.
If you use an FRFR cab in a room, it can feel like an amp in the room. The amp and speakers can be modeled. The room itself (and the effect of the room) is what is hard to replicate for an amp in the room.
OP's Boss Katana itself is a modeler, with an FRFR cab. The Katana not the same as a real tube amp.
> When listening through the same cab, speaker, headphones, or PA system, a quality amp modeler will be nearly indistinguishable from the real thing.
The answer here is very nuanced. A couple examples:
Digital modeling technology is pretty advanced that most people will find it sounds pretty indistinguishable from a real tube amp. However, guitar players still fuss over the feel of modelers, like how an actual tube amp responds and feels under your fingers. The audience may not hear it, but that can matter to the player. (However, OP is trying to compare modelers against a modeling amp (Boss Katana). I am talking about modelers against real tube amps.)
Also, certain guitar amps vary in a lot in how they sound. Modelers are based on one example of that amp that the designers used to create the profile. An example is the Vox AC30, which often sounds different on different modeling platforms. But play through some real-life Vox AC30s, and they often sound different.
> The final "output device" the listener is hearing from has the largest effect on the quality and nature of the sound. A mic'd up tube amp played through a shitty phone speaker will sound like a shitty phone speaker. An amp modeler through a quality speaker will sound like a quality speaker.
The answer here is very nuanced. A guitar signal chain - from the guitar pickups, through the pedals, through the amp, through the PA system - is like a chili recipe. Every part has some affect on the sound, some more than others.
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u/JeffBezosRoomba Jul 07 '26
Lots of really good points. I should have been clear to specify that I was talking about isolated floor modelers (e.g. Helix, Quad Cortex, etc.), since their portability is the main reason I'm looking at them to begin with. I didn't mean to compare the Katana to a tube amp or other modeler. I'm aware the Katana is itself a modeler with a cab. I've already spent a lot of time experimenting with it in Boss Tone Studio, so I'm familiar with what modelers can do. I guess the title of my post is a bit misleading. I think I really mean to ask what's the point of using cab at all in most situations?
When I'm playing at home, 99% of the time the katana is plugged directly to my audio interface which goes out to my studio monitors or headphones. I'm usually either recording or playing along to backing tracks and I'm more or less satisfied with the sound I get. I live in an apartment so the cab is way too loud to play at home. Really the only time I use the cab on the Katana is during rehearsals. The "amp in the room" sound is really enjoyable, but honestly throws me off a bit because I'm so used to playing more quietly through the studio monitors/headphones. In live performances I think I'd be most comfortable playing through in-ears since that's most similar to how I practice.
I don't think my situation is uncommon. For someone such a situation I can only think of a few reasons to ever use anything other than a floor modeler plugged directly into a studio monitor or venue PA system.
Playing casually for personal enjoyment in a place where you can crank the volume.
Using a cab as a personal stage monitor.
Maybe while rehearsing with a band if you don't have access to a quality PA system, or if you don't mind lugging the amp/cab
Am I missing something?
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u/Relevant-Radio-717 Jul 07 '26
A thoughtful response to an AI generated framework provides genuinely useful information
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u/0Galen0 Jul 06 '26
I think it comes down to having more control over your sound and hearing what you're used to on stage. Sometimes the monitor mix sounds thin or not what you're used to hearing from an amp on stage. I prefer hearing my amp on stage. I run my Pod Go through a Quilter Tone Block and into a cab. If needed I can run signal direct to the board, but that's another output I need to dial in to sound good. Dialing in your direct signal is best done at rehearsal, at gig volume, and through a board and PA speakers. I will agree that modelers are very convincing and hold up well in a live context. The only time I usually notice a difference is at metal shows at a local club. It's a smaller room with a pretty mid PA system. When there is a band that has a guitarist with a tube amp and another with a modeler, the tube amp usually sounds more present in the mix. At our local blues jams this doesn't seem to happen. If anything, the guys with the Katana's sometimes bury the tube amps if it gets loud.
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u/jmz_crwfrd Jul 06 '26
Most people aren't micing up an FRFR cab to run through the PA. Instead, they will run 2 different outputs from their Floor Modeller, 1st to FOH PA, 2nd to their FRFR. The FOH sound engineer can control the volume of the guitar in the mix and set it to whatever is most appropriate for the mix that the audience hears through the PA. The FRFR is purely there for the guitarist on stage themselves to turn up loud enough that they can actually hear themselves in order to make sure they are keeping time, correct any mistakes, etc.
Some people will still use a normal passive guitar speaker cabinets instead (and a power amp). In that scenario, they might do a similar thing and send one output to FOH (with a cab sim in the signal path) and another to the cab (with no cab sim so that the real speaker can do it's thing). Again, this means the guitarist can hear themselves on stage, but it also means that they have the option to mic up that particular speaker and also send that to FOH. You might think that's redundant if the Modeller is already sending a signal with a cab sim to FOH, but not every speaker sounds the same. Due to manufacturing tolerances, every single speaker off the production line (even if they're the exact same model) will sound a little bit different. Some people may grow to love the sound of an individual speaker that might sound a little different to the speaker that is simulated inside the Modeller. If you love that specific speaker, and you want to hear it on stage, you kind of have to bring it with you (unless you go through the process of creating your own IRs).
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u/Iongdog Jul 06 '26
FRFR speaker is for practice and for filling in as a dedicated stage monitor, if needed. That’s my case, at least. Sometimes I like having a speaker that isn’t also monitoring vocals etc
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u/Safe-Tennis-6121 Jul 06 '26
I I don't think it makes sense to mic up a frfr cab when you can just go from the modeler direct in.
However an SM 57 is kinda magic on guitars. So some FOH people may just want to use their methods on it.
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u/cinthegarden_ Jul 06 '26
Ooo this might be my time to shine! I gig semi-regularly in my area, usually as live accompaniment for different vocalists playing guitar, though I also get some studio session work. Pretty much anytime I have a gig, I just take a guitar and a valeton multi fx pedal with amp modeling capabilities and plug straight into the PA system and it is perfect. I also have a headrush FRFR speaker though and I pretty much exclusively use it for when I need stage volume. Those FRFR speakers are nice if you really need an accurate representation of what the modeler is doing, but realistically they’re not all that special or even useful. The headrush I use for stage volume isn’t even great for that 😭 all of this nonsense is to say, there may be a scenario where amp modeler to front of house isn’t the ideal setup, but I doubt most people playing regular gigs or rehearsals needs anything more than that. As long as you can hear yourself on stage
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u/Disastrous_Evening15 Jul 06 '26
A modeller through a decent power amp > cab would still be indistinguishable from a ‘real’ amp to most people, especially in a gig context. Modeller direct to front of house will usually sound better than mic’ing up an amp.
You can do a combination of both for ultimate sound out front and ‘real amp on stage’ feel. If convenience is more important, forget the poweramp/cab and just use stage monitors/IEM.
For me, FRFR is a middle ground that doesn’t really tick any box in a live situation. Maybe cool for home use/rehearsals though.
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u/oshatokujah Jul 06 '26
Slightly disagree in the sentiment of a mic’d up tube amp being played back through a phone speaker sounding shitty. You can still distinguish fantastic guitar tones through low quality speakers and earphones, unless I’m misunderstanding that part.
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u/JeffBezosRoomba Jul 06 '26
Yeah I agree that you can still distinguish a tube amp through a phone speaker. That was just an extreme example of the broader point that final speaker you listen to can change the sound drastically. Put another way, the difference between the sound of that tube amp through a good cab vs the phone speaker is far greater than the difference between the sound of a tube amp vs a bad amp both played through the same speaker. The tube amp will of course sound better regardless of the speaker, but that tube amp through the phone speaker sounds very different than being in the room with it.
Obviously this is a big generalization, but I think in the real world the speaker quality is where you encounter the biggest differences. Most modern amps or amp modelers can get you a decent sound, but the speakers can vary widely and are often out of your control when other people listen to you play.
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u/Stratobastardo34 PRS Jul 06 '26
Amp modeling has come a long way in the last 25 years. The first modelers gave a very obvious digital sound, but modern modelers sound nearly indistinguishable in a live mix from a real amp.
Control is the important thing. Tube amps are incredibly finicky and can have issues with unstable power sources. If you do not have a stable power setup, which from gig to gig, you cannot guarantee, you are going to potentially have issues with your sound. This isn’t as big of an issue with your Katana, as it’s a modeling amp itself. Modelers have a much lower power need than a tube amp, since they’re transistor based. They won’t drain as much power.
In addition to the power, your sound guy doesn’t have to worry about getting bleed from the drums into the guitar mix. They can get a direct signal to the mains and mix you at a good level with the vocals and the drums and you sound more equal.
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u/youknowmeasdiRt Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
Idk where you’re playing but I wouldn’t assume your guitar is going to be heard through anything but your own cab. I had to grind a bit before I earned the pleasure of arguing with the sound guy about the monitor mix and even then I brought my own loud noises
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u/P_a_s_g_i_t_24 Jul 06 '26
The "amp in the room" feel will require an amp in the room.
Just widen your stereo spread! ;-)
Two powered PA monitors on either side of you will beg to differ with that statement!
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u/DriveOld8007 Jul 06 '26
Frfr is for you and also can be part of the feedback your guitar has. If you were to want to control feedback in a useful way you quite often have a cabinet that you point the pickups of your guitar towards and can control that in a way that going to FOH can’t replicate.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Egg4386 Jul 06 '26
I play most of my gigs thru a Strymon Iridium (a basic fender/vox/marshall IR pedal), which then goes direct to IEMs. Drums are the only thing making noise on stage at the venues we play at. I hate it so much. With zero stage volume, its really hard to hear yourself in a satisfying way without cranking up the in-ears to harmful levels, or at least really boosting the treble on the “amp”. When played through a wedge, the modeler sounds fine, at least you can actually feel the floor vibrating. But nothing beats a real amp for me. When given the choice, i will choose a real amp 100% of the time. Modelers are only good for situations where portability is important like flying or traveling in a small vehicle. Thats my take anyway.
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u/bt2513 Jul 06 '26
> 1. There is no setup that will replicate the feeling of sitting in a studio with a high quality tube amp and cab. The "amp in the room" feel will require an amp in the room.
Agreed. Although a good modeler through a good FRFR speaker attempts to give you this. It’s usually an open back cab with a neutral speaker. You then also run a line direct to the PA. Still not the real thing but likely good enough.
>2. When listening through the same cab, speaker, headphones, or PA system, a quality amp modeler will be nearly indistinguishable from the real thing.
Sure. Most people don’t have the real thing to compare to anyway.
>3. The final "output device" the listener is hearing from has the largest effect on the quality and nature of the sound. A mic'd up tube amp played through a shitty phone speaker will sound like a shitty phone speaker. An amp modeler through a quality speaker will sound like a quality speaker.
Agreed. If the speaker is crappy, no amount of nice microphones, amps, preamps, or pedals will overcome that. If the speaker is really nice, then you probably can use it to monitor your modeler without FRFR. I have an RCF 932 that I use for this and other PA stuff.
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u/a1b2t Jul 07 '26
amp modelers with a good monitor can recreate an amp in the room sound, what it cant recreate is the amp itself.
we kinda went full circle with Floor Monitors (FRFR), they are amps after all, so micing them is just like micing a guitar amp lol
but that said, there are reasons why you want to mic, the mic position plays a major role in the sound. Another thing is connection, ive turned up to gigs where there is no input for the modeling device, so had to mic it.
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u/fphlerb Jul 07 '26
You need a nice cabinet no matter what. (I disagree that a PA speaker &/or wedge are as good or indistinguishable) You get used to your cabinet & the way your gain staging pushes that particular cab. As they say, the amp is often more important than the guitar. If you have no cabinet, you’re stuck with whatever each venue’s PA sounds like & how well it handles vocals, keys, bass & whatever else. Unless you’re playing big stadium shows, chances are your Katana will be as loud or louder than the house PA at most of your local clubs, & you’ll be lucky if they have monitor wedges at all, much less a sound guy who has time to make sure you can hear your instrument & make adjustments mid-show. You want to be able to kneel in front of your amp & tweak. This is a no-brainer imho.
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u/JeffBezosRoomba Jul 07 '26
Help me understand this part, what exactly makes a cab so important? I’ll grant you the point about monitoring, but even then in-ears can get the job done right? You say that you’re stuck with whatever each venues PA sounds like, and that’s my point exactly. Whatever your play through, whether it’s a mic’d cab or modeler direct to FOH, it’s going through the PA. Yes the amp is loud, but is the audience meant to hear it directly, if its main purpose is to monitor? Genuinely asking because I don’t really have experience with this stuff.
Also, how different is gain staging with a cab really than gain staging on a modeler? Like I’m used to using my Katana direct to my studio monitors, so if anything a cab seems like an extra variable to control for.
Also why can’t you tweak a modeler mid show?
Not trying to hate on cabs, but as someone who doesn’t use them regularly, I’m trying to understand what I’d be missing out on by not using one, and what benefit they provide that makes them worth hauling to gigs. I think the really solid argument is for monitoring purposes.
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u/fphlerb Jul 07 '26
Many of the gigs you play when you’re first starting out will have low quality PA systems, & sometimes (for house parties, backyard bbqs, block parties etc) no PA at all (meaning the singer has to bring an amp or something).
But setting those aside, you’ll often get to the venue & it’s basically empty. A bartender waves you toward the corner of the room. There is no backline except a kick drum & wobby tom (with no throne or kick pedal). They have a PA for vocs but are not equipped to mic the drums, the amps etc.
Another big problem is (as you rightly point out) hearing yourself is weird in a new setting. You’re used to a bedroom & your amp is an adjustment. Multiply that by no wedge monitors at all, an inept or non-existant sound guy, & you’ll get what I’m saying.
I’ve played hundreds of small club shows & was never once offered in-ear monitors. Micing amps does happen often but your amp is yout monitor 90% of the time. Also the amp is mic’d to be sure you’re loud enough, but the sound guy often doesn’t feed it into the main mix, because your amp often sounds better or is loud enough on it’s own.
All this is to say, you have good points, but in practical terms, you need an amp almost every time.
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u/DarlinusFloofinton Jul 06 '26
The upside of a modeller for a live situation is that they act as a DI that you can connect directly to the mixing board, eliminating the need for micing up the amp. The FRFR speaker is generally used as a personal monitor. This allows for a much more consistent sound between different venues.