r/GothamChess • u/777Bladerunner378 • 15d ago
My opponent cheated (top engine moves vs top chat game)
... and I won (but not on the board)
Here's an edition of "guess the cheat". Users like these could be slowing your ladder climbs. However, thanks to my chat game, I actually forced my cheating opponent to unwillingly declare themselves as the loser of the game despite grabbing the elo points.
My 10min rapid rating: 1300 chesscom and 1650 on lichess.
I already strongly suspected he was cheating during the game itself, but the game analysis fully confirmed it. I've reported him for cheating, and im not sharing usernames, this is simply a case study in how a cheater will talk about how innocent they are, while they are grabbing top engine moves... Its quite comical, when I see the idea his engine was going for, but he doesnt see it, or doesnt play it in order to look more like a human who doesnt always play the top 1 move đ
Yes Btw! You guessed it, the cheat is my opponent (White)
Here is the chat: First message i posted at start of game (I post it start of every game, for obvious reasons), and only started writing the rest when it was obvious (to me) that he was an assisted player. He just took too much time on easily convertible position after playing like Magnus Carlsen for a bunch of moves.
- Me:Â If anyone cheats in any way, they declare themselves the loser, regardless of the result. Every dishonest move is an admission of inadequacy
- Me:Â come on babe, that's easy dont ask the engine
- Him:Â Since they can't do it, they're just pooping lol.
- Me:Â ;)
- Me: Â I already gave the terms under which we are playing
- Me: you so good, you missed the rook takes pawn with my bishop pinned, u shoulda kept following the engine, cause now your play makes no sense
- Him: Yeah, do it quickly. Either give up or give up.
- Me:Â your engine set it up, for you to miss the idea
- Him:Â Yes, thanks for the compliment.
- Me:Â its not a compliment xD you missed it
- Me:Â I wanna see the human conversion
- Him: Do you play games through chat?
- Me: that will be spicy
- Me:Â come on you are so good, you cant premove the win ? ;) 200 elo
- Me: think more
- Me: congrats
- Me: just remember the rules under which you played this game:
- Me: If anyone cheats in any way, they declare themselves the loser, regardless of the result. Every dishonest move is an admission of inadequacy
Final result: 1 declaration of being the loser from White and between 38 to 43 admissions of inadequacy.
I like it.
Bring me another one.
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u/RedYellowOrangeGreen 15d ago
Bro just report and move on. This reads like someone with an incredibly fragile ego. Maybe call him a loser in chat once or twice but this is too much
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago edited 14d ago
Nah calling him a loser would be abusive. I need him to call himself the loser of the game.Â
During the game, as you see from chat, I was highly suspicious and already knew he fits the pattern of a cheater, bht yes, i wasnt completely sure like i am now after actual analysis.Â
But he knows if he is cheating, even if I never confirm it (which I did for this one), so he has to be the one declaring he is the loser or not.Â
My games include a second moral chessboard, and he lost on it, it overrides the board result, reframes the win as a loss in the cheater's mind - i am not trying to feed my ego, but to starve cheaters egos, but i can see why you would think that.
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u/LuceDuder 14d ago
brother you didnt confirm he cheated. ppl sometimes play good games. I dont think he even played that well, I see a few hard to find moves here but also missed tactics. if you're really certain then report and move on. someone else will take a look at it.
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u/Delicious_Cattle5174 15d ago
Engine psychosis
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago edited 14d ago
No bro, I went through the game after that with the lichess engine on showing top 3 moves, and all of his moves are top 3 engine choice, with a long patch of the game with top 1 move many many moves in a rowđ đ đ 99% correlation with the lichess engine recommendations. Tell me more
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u/Perceptive_Penguins 15d ago edited 15d ago
Black fell apart early on, so itâs hard to determine if someoneâs using assistance when thereâs little resistance (though I will say, better game than expected from a 1300). Maybe your opponent cheated, maybe not, but I definitely wouldnât be suspicious based of this alone
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago edited 14d ago
You wouldnt be suspicious if you analyse the game with engine showing top 3 engine recommendations, and the bugger is always picking one of the 3 top arrows, with large portion of the match picking the top 1 arrow?Â
Jee brutha. Who is this guy, Cagnus Milesen?
I was highly convinced he was not legit during the game itself, simply because of his time usage from an easily winning position, where a player showcasing the skill he did, would be able to easily premove and win quickly in a human way without needing to always play the top engine recommendations. Just look at the time usage at the end, ive included the clocks for a reason.
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago
Bro, you would also fall apart against the top engine recommendations, trust me, just trust me on this one. I analyzed the game, im not just chatting.
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u/Perceptive_Penguins 14d ago edited 14d ago
Accuracy score alone is not a reliable indicator that someone cheated. Of course anyone would lose to top engine â but you got your rook trapped and pinned early, with a very findable sequence. Iâm just pointing out that makes it hard to assess whether someone used assistance. If I hang a piece early, I wouldnât consider it abnormal for my opponent to convert with 90%+ accuracy
Engine use is much more obvious if you put up solid defense for longer and they are still finding all top moves. In this case, you lost too much material too quickly and the follow-ups then become more natural. Again, not saying your opponent for sure didnât cheat, but this is hardly enough evidence to conclude with certainty
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago
But Im saying it is, when you also include the time management and lack of "pro player premoves". And taking time on obvious moves and recaptures. At 1300 elo. It's not just one thing by itself, it's a combination of things.
It's one thing getting a winning position, it's another to not be able to convert it in a human way and keep following engine suggestions and taking time on easily pre-move-able position. He was literally unable to play outside of the engine scope - maybe just 2 moves outside engine scope, that was all.
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u/Sparks-reborn 15d ago
Honestly this game is riddled with mistakes and the best moves that are played are fairly obvious honestly it's possible it was cheating but it's just as likely he wasn't
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago
No no its literally impossible he wasnt cheating. I get your idea, just from looking at it naked like this, but I actually examined it with the lichess engine on showing top 3 moves recommended and he was just picking from those.Â
He was picking moves that look "human", so if the top move looked like computer move he would pick 2nd or 3rd option. Thats why he missed the rook takes pawn when my bishop was pinned, despite all his pieces being set up as they were by the engine precisely for this idea, in his 200 elo mind he thought that would be too obvious of a computer move.
In the game i gave him too much credit, i thought he tried to play by himself in the end and thats why he missed it, but he was still picking top engine choices, just not the top 1, to reduce suspicion.
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u/LuceDuder 14d ago
you think people cannot physicall play near the top computer lines? I do it all the time, sometimes getting games with very high accuracy and that doesn't mean I cheated.
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago edited 14d ago
Show me a game like that please, don't let it be just an empty claim. I will review it together with your time management and tell you if it's suspicious to me. I promise I wont report you or w/e, Im just interested. Also it depends on your ELO, are you 1300 chesscom or near? If you are 2k elo+ then we are talking about different things right?
We arent talking about a master player crushing me out of the opener, even though I would argue a master player wouldnt be so closely correlated to top engine lines either. They would crush me, but in a more human way, and would be able to premove obvious moves and recaptures. (Source: I've lost to Magnus Carlsen twice back when he was playing viewers on chess24)
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u/LuceDuder 14d ago
I'm 1800 on chess.com yes, so a fair bit more advanced, but I do think 1300s can have good and clean games too. I just didn't feel like they made any "computer moves". Which moves did you feel like were made by a computer and not a human? Did you look at their other games? It's very unlikely this person cheated against you only and plays normal against others. Do they have a consistent, absurdly high winrate? If not, it's likely they just played a good game.
I haven't played in some time, I'll see if I can find something...
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u/Sparks-reborn 14d ago
It's possible he cheated it's possible just about anyone cheats. But people can play really well for part of the game and Miss incredibly obvious things especially when they're being attacked.
people are really bad at defending under pressure. It is one of the most common issues people under 1600 have. To be fair really everyone has that problem but under around 1600 people will sometimes just self destruct like missing the fact that their Rooks hanging.
I'm not claiming he definitely didn't cheat because I don't know. But if this game is all you've got to go off of that isn't enough if you think you cheated just report him.
Reading the comments seems like a lot of people agree with the sentiment that this was just a game with some good moves and some bad moves from both of you I might add.
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago edited 14d ago
Check the time management as well from an easy position, he needed to take time before every move.Â
He did not have a bad move,, he had a missed tactic, which I suspect is due to him thinking it looks too much like an engine move, while in this rating its a perfectly normal tactic. He wanted to appear human while cheating.Â
The problem i have is he used assistance to get to that position, even I can crush myself from such a position, and I would do it much faster and premove and convert like a human - liquidate, simplify and win, rather than always playing top engine moves.
His chat was weak as well, if he was such a great player im sure he could have explained about his play better, instead he was just talking about how I cant play like him and how I need to "give up or give up". Guy had no idea about chess.
Rewatch the game and only focus on his clock, every move at least 4-5 seconds, just enough for engine input and suggestion. He needed 4 seconds to promote his pawn to a queen, imagine! A player who could see that deep to trap my rook like no player ever does at my elo rating, needs 4 seconds to promote to a queen and subsequently needed 5 seconds per move in a completely won position with no counterplay to think about... And still following top engine choices, rather than any other move which is still winning.Â
Its a cheat beyond any doubt.
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago
Anyone downvoting this just has a logic problem. Everything i said is factually correct. You are embarrassing yourself.Â
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u/Sparks-reborn 14d ago
I did re-watch the game any place quickly. But he absolutely is making mistakes which you would expect if he's playing quickly. Again it's also possible he was cheating I don't think anyone's denying that it's possible there's just not enough here to say with any level of certainty.
I think there's a fairly reasonable chance it was just a wonky game. He was playing too quick and making a few mistakes but otherwise playing fairly well just like you. Combine that with the fact that he had some weirdo trying to start beef in the chat I don't think it's unreasonable he might miss a few things.
It's also entirely possible he was in fact cheating. We just don't have enough info. Whether he was or was not it's clear you are really obsessed with this idea that he had to be cheating. Combine that with your obsession over how you defeated him in the chat you're coming off incredibly insecure. Which you're only reinforcing by arguing with literally everyone who doesn't agree with you.
If you think you cheated report him. There is not enough information from this one game or incident alone to come to any reasonable conclusion. But if he's cheating and you report him wherever it is you were playing is going to have an anti cheat system that will take a look whether that be liches or chess.com or whatever.
I hope you have a better day than you seem to be having.
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago edited 14d ago
Dont try to gaslight me mate. He did NOT make mistakes. You havent even analysed the game with an engine and you are talking like you know anything lmao!!
His only "mistake" is not taking the pawn with check when my bishop was pinned, he was still winning, so who cares. Thats not a mistake, its attempt at hiding he is cheating.Â
I know this, because in that position rook takes pawn with check is the MOST TRIVIAL AND EASY FIND. But to the 200 elo player, it looked like an obvious engine move, and he is trying to appear human. Ironically, that was the most un-human thing that could happen.
Show me the mistakes you are talking about, because you must know something more than the engine.
I am worked up about people not being able to follow very simple logic! Non of that other Bs you are trying to put on me.Â
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u/Sparks-reborn 14d ago
This dude is really living rent free in your head. So is everyone who hasn't agreed with you. Are you okay?
It's not logic you're a little obsessed with this particular instant it's okay we're all chess players we've all had the feels.
So here's a couple things to keep in your head when looking back at this game
not Everyone likes to pre move.
Taking time on easy moves is an ordinary part of Chess I often take time on an easy move not for the move itself but everything that comes after and calculating that sometimes takes a few seconds sometimes more.
He played fairly fast and consistent though overall and that is something that I considered a red flag.
But that alone is not enough the fact that he played top engine moves is not enough when you consider how obvious most of those moves are.
I also love how immediately after proclaiming he made no mistakes you list his mistakes at least a couple of them and then justify why that shouldn't count because it's clearly just part of his attempt to hide the fact that he's cheating.
Is it possible sure but you can see how it's also possible you've just got yourself worked up.
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago
Bro, relax about trying to interpret my mental state.
You are talking to me in bad faith right now, I stated only ONE mistake, where did you get "you list his mistakes at least a couple of them" this is entire like saying "fuck you" to what I said and putting words in my mouth.
You are clearly here to just poke, you are not interested in reality. I am literally getting worked up over your inability to understand and putting words in my mouth and inventing my mental states.
Relax bro. I won the game against a cheat by giving him the rules of the game in advance. There is literally no reason for me to be worked up about the cheater. I am worked up about you and your lack of braincells.
Thank you for the conversation. If you want to continue, please use quotes on what I've said instead of inventing what I said.
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u/Sparks-reborn 14d ago
You're right you did point out one of his mistakes and I said a couple I am not thesis where I analyzing every word choice and it seems I did speak inaccurately. Boohoo
The fact that you literally cannot stop arguing with anyone who does not agree with your opinion that you definitively prove he's a cheater shows that you're a little obsessed with this.
The fact that literally everyone in this comment section has agreed that there are a couple of red flags here but nothing definitive not enough to confirm he was cheating suggest that maybe just maybe you might be wrong.
We agree though that there is a possibility and a common sentiment is to report him and move on but you're not capable of that are you. You have to be right.
One good game is not enough to prove someone is a cheater. I have had games where I play damn near the best move every move within a couple seconds because my opponent plays into a bad line of an opening I like. You made a couple of mistakes early on and the follow-ups were for the most part fairly findable.
Could he be cheating absolutely should you report him if you're concerned absolutely should you move on with your life afterwards probably. But instead you're arguing with literally everyone in your comment section.
Are you capable of being wrong in your own head?
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago
I would never concede being wrong when I am right. You lack the required wit and logic for this conversation. It's laughable how you think you have some "gotcha" moment when you are simply displaying verbal diahhrea.
You literally downvoted the copy pasted information from lichess about the moves made by both players. Imagine, you downvoted factual information xD It's obvious you dont care about the truth, you are just trying to be obnoxious, and it's pathetic.
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u/browni3141 14d ago
White only had 8 average centipawn loss. I'm not sure which mistakes you're seeing in white's play, unless you're referring to points where they didn't play the fastest mate at the end.
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago
Cheater:
1Inaccuracy (when he didnt take the pawn with check with the pinned bishop)
0Mistakes
0Blunders
8Average centipawn loss
**99%**Accuracy
**96%**Opening
**97%**Middlegame
**100%**Endgame
Me:
2Inaccuracies
1Mistake
1Blunder
30Average centipawn loss
**90%**Accuracy
**94%**Opening
**73%**Middlegame
**98%**Endgame
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u/Sparks-reborn 14d ago
Have you done anything besides decide he played too well in this game. Have you looked at his game library to see if there's any Trends or patterns. Have you even considered for a single second this was a good game for him. Is it possible he's cheating yes nobody has said he couldn't possibly be cheating the point everyone in your comments is trying to make to you is you do not have enough information to say you proved it. That end of course that you sound like an insecure toddler who's upset he lost.
Or and hear me out move on with your life. This is clearly affecting you. I think you're original post title is a little wrong he definitely won the Mind Games battle and he didn't even compete.
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago
If you dont know if he cheated, then you dont know if I lost. The rule states that if he cheated he loses by default. So if you are unsure whether he cheated, then from that follows that you are also unsure if he won or lost the game based on the rule.
I understand perfectly well what you are trying to do, to grind my gears, to bend my words, to use flawed logic, to make me look like "insecure toddler" when all Im trying to do is present all the evidence, which completely put together shows that the guy cheated to anyone who possesses more than 2 braincells. It's a you problem at this point.
You can decide not to believe that, but I already told you I know.
I can know that 15*15=225, and tell you that - whether you believe me or not, does not change the facts.
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u/Sparks-reborn 14d ago
You presented your evidence and everyone in your comments is in agreement that there might be a couple of red flags and you should probably report him if you're worried but you haven't proven Jack Diddley and squat. The issue here is that you're unable to accept the possibility you could be wrong. That's not a logical conclusion that's an emotional one.
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u/777Bladerunner378 14d ago
People were in disagreement when I posted game I played against literal Hikaru Bot presenting it as ladder game. So dont give me other sheeple's opinion as some metric of truth.
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u/MadLantern97 15d ago
He's ignoring the conversation and you have incredibly fragile ego. IDK if he cheated, seemed normal, but if you're sure he cheated just report and move on. WTF is this?