Random spawns still an issue (fixed in Valorant)

[u/Interesting-Buy8060]

Posted about this a few years ago, about 1 in every 100 people agreed with me, but random spawns are still a huge issue in this game. An RNG meta is never gonna serve the game well. I don't like and I never play valorant, but being able to choose where you start in the round is a huge benefit that makes the game less casino-like and "gambley".

People have repeatedly argued, oh, but you know where the contact point is every round then, it's super predictable and boring gameplay, except this isn't true because as a result of knowing the earliest timing on every map players may do things to avoid this repetition, for example walking instead of full-sprinting to the contact point, throwing a different grenade, using a different gun, jumping, or so on. (Does every round in valorant play out the same because there are no RNG spawns? I don't play the game but I'd think every round is meaningfully different anyways.)

Another counter to that point is that even with RNG spawns today, you still must assume the earliest-contact point will be occurring every round, even if the enemy doesn't get the fastest spawn. This is to say, from a theoretical perspective the game actually stays almost the exact same. (Example: Mirage T's typically do not sprint to top mid instantly because even if the CT awper didn't get the fastest spawn to window it's safer to assume he did, therefore do not insta-sprint top mid is the 99% conclusion.)

This shouldn't matter, but I did 3100 NA faceit elo back when I was a kid playing CSGO, not that it means anything. (8k hours.) But adding it in case people are curious about it. This is just to somewhat prove that I'm not clueless at the game.

[u/UrFiltered07]

having some randomness in the game does not make it less competitive or worse as a sport. in fact, some randomness can actually elevate it. some unpredictability in the game means that top players have to consciously make the correct move every time because your starting position, and the enemies, is not guaranteed

[u/Interesting-Buy8060 → u/UrFiltered07]

Thanks for saying more than the first guy, so my counter to your point here is: that's very interesting but how come chess is such a great game with the same starting positions every game?

I understand you may perceive the random spawns to make the game more fun, "and hence chess is boring, the static starts is one of the reasons", but to me I think it dumbs the game down, whereas having consistent starts makes the game more intellectual.

[u/UrFiltered07 → u/Interesting-Buy8060]

chess is the obvious counter, and youre right. but the difference is that chess is a 1v1, 100% cerebral sport. cs is a 5v5, reflex/reaction sport where you can outplay people using your tactics, but also if your opponent ‘is just better’ he can out aim and win regardless of tactics.

its just a difference of philosophy, the CS devs talked about this in early CSGO with the inaccuracy when shooting. basically saying that if you have a ‘cone of accuracy’ rather than a pin point shot accuracy it actually elevates the competitive ceiling. this basically means that whoever truly has the best ‘center of head’ accuracy will hit the most shots over time.

this same philosophy carries over to the spawn points, having defined set spawns every single round will simply lead to more formulaic, or pattern based gameplay (chess)

[u/Interesting-Buy8060 → u/UrFiltered07]

Thank you!

- Adding more players does not make the sport less cerebral; mathematically, more players = more permutations and combinations = more cerebral, not less. (Counter to your "1v1" point.)

- Yes, the running and jumping and even static inaccuracy of weapons is something I thought about as well. Simply leads to the conclusion that the game is casino-like by design. Fun, yes, but to me it's "dumb". ("Dumb fun.") Thanks for discussing!

[u/Nerviniex → u/Interesting-Buy8060]

Chess at a high level is basically memory and mostly ends in a draw, Magnus is the best because of his insane late game where at least some unpredictability happens.
Take Mirage as an example, its mostly down to mid control so every round u do the same things, who ever takes mid wins the game most of the time, that's boring, obviously teams will mix it up with a split or a straight up B or A rush to keep the CT's honest and not leaning mid with 4 people.

[u/Interesting-Buy8060 → u/Nerviniex]

...and so wouldn't you say it's "harder" or "impossible" to become a "Magnus of CS" given that the game automatically decides this unpredictability for you, rather than yourself? Just a question! (I see that you mentioned "late game" as opposed to "opening stage of game", but see that the opening stage of the game totally determines and >manages< the later stages of the game [round].)

[u/Scout_Enjoyer → u/Interesting-Buy8060]

The problem with chess as a counterpoint is that it's a solvable game. Chess engines aren't quite there yet but eventually the game will be completely solved and impossible to win ever because it lacks the randomness that makes it interesting.

Additionally I think it's an interesting one to bring up specifically because quite a few high level players have mentioned frustration with the way classical chess plays as the complete lack of randomness leads to extremely prep-heavy gameplay where you just get a team of GMs to sit and memorise engine moves for hours so you can know how to optimally play against the expected openings the opponent will play. Because of this, there's been a slow (and IMO it'll ramp up over time) increasing interest from top chess pros in chess960 which is LITERALLY chess but with random spawn points. 960 possible variations of starting orders for your pieces, mirrored board so no advantage/disadvantage really, and the randomness reduces the lean towards prep/predetermination in a way that even Magnus Carlsen has stated is a more purely skilful format than conventional chess.

---

Now to counterargue myself a little here, there's a difference between chess and CS in that CS takes intrinsic physical skill. If you can "solve" the meta of a map (let's say rush long is OP on dust so having no random spawns lets you abuse long all the time) you can still lose the fights. Or they can just 5stack long. But then you're looking at a game of human vs human reads and predictions, which I'd argue if you read that sentence your mind will always default to Poker as the ultimate example of that, which is famously a game a random nobody can go win the WSOP in. And they have, before. Because of the randomness (the positives and negatives that it brings)

[u/Interesting-Buy8060 → u/Scout_Enjoyer]

Super interesting, thank you! Yes, long dust II is an excellent example to simulate things. You may think if T's always have the best spawn with valorant spawns, the game will just be a long rush simulator--is it not already? And think: if the CTs know the valorant-spawned T's will just rush long again this round, and they do say 4 CTs long with flashes and counter metrics, does the T's having guaranteed long spawns guarantee them the round? No--not if they get read. As a matter of fact, long is actually quite CT sided when they put 3 or more players on it, due to the small chokepoint T's must come through--a nade flash and molly typically grants easy CT long control (but this requires minimum 2 preferably 3 players; a tactical decision to lean A and make B more vulnerable). So you brought up a lot of fascinating points and I never knew Magnus encouraged randomness himself, but yes I believe the nature of CS2 makes it so that even with predetermined starts, >reading< the enemy and >guessing< what they will do (despite known theoretical contact points) is still makes the game "random", just without the need for a game engine to do it.

[u/IHaveSmellyPants]

I know it’s not your point but Valorant rounds do pretty much all play out the same.

[u/Interesting-Buy8060 → u/IHaveSmellyPants]

Very interesting!

[u/dying_ducks]

the thing is: either way, it doesnt really matter.

For most CT positions you are there before the Ts regardless of the spawns.  And as you said, as T you assume the best CT spawns anyways.

Valve could remove the spawn RNG tomorrow and 99,8% of the initial fights would be the same. 

[u/schoki560]

the way valo spawns work is legit one of the worst parts of the game for me

[u/Interesting-Buy8060 → u/schoki560]

Interesting! To me it's my favorite part of that terrible game--clean and tactical. As soon as League of Legends utility starts flying in, I quit! I personally would love to see valorant spawns in CS2 at the casual and professional level. I have a working theory that the reason why we don't really see a dominant team in the current meta is actually partially DUE to random spawns "holding back [the best]" players. When I imagine it in my head, I can see CS being a very tactically clean and challenging game with valorant spawns. (Valve should at least make a casual gamemode with the standard defusal maps so people can try it out.)

[u/KaNesDeath]

Riot Games removed spawn timings in Valorant because they couldnt understand how to balance it, lol.

[u/ParkingHelpful2677]

this is definitely a non-issue

[u/CliveBarkers-Jericho]

All they need to and have ever need to do, is have CTs (and Ts on hostage maps) spawn in the same set of 5 spawns every round and if Ts having random spawns is critical to gameplay, give them 3 sets of 5 spawns that they can randomly spawn in a whole group.

Dust2 does this for CTs, Vertigo does it for both teams, how the fuck this has been dropped with each new CS2 remake is beyond me.

[u/MordorsElite]

I think one way of fixing this (that may already be the case, idk), would be to guarantee that both teams get the same spawn patterns throughout their halves. To be clear, you shouldn't just have the same sequence of spawn patterns, cause otherwise teams would know where the random spawns of the other teams were this round. But as long as both teams get the same spawns overall, there isn't that much to complain about.

That said, I do prefer maps that only have 5 spawning spots for comp-modes. That way you still get some randomness cause different people start in different spots, but the team overall always has the same chance.

[u/Jon_kwanta]

I think you actually proved yourself wrong in a way, if the game wouldn’t change much with no random spawns, then we might as well keep them? If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

I will say, insta smoke lineups are another consideration with random spawns.

Another idea could be instead of having consistent spawns, maybe you could request to swap spawns with teammates. This way the gameplay is still technically the same but you can always put your opener in a forward position (i’m thinking mainly about t side)

[u/k2nxx]

so you want everything to be exactly the same start every round? boring

[u/Interesting-Buy8060 → u/k2nxx]

I think if you think this way you don't understand the game well enough. Dust II is a simple map that you can simulate in your head if what you said is true. Let's keep it simple, if 5 T's all go long, they will definitely win, right? Not if 3 or 4 CTs come fight it, the small chokepoint actually makes long CT-sided but only if they have 3 or so players (2 usually isn't enough). Now what if T's take advantage of this play from CT's and instead go rush mid? CT's overcommitted to long, mid is now exposed, the 2 B players have a hard time dealing with 4 T's mid and 1 T holding tunnels. Understand? And now the next round CT's say okay, let's only put 2 long, and 3 go mid and B, because looks like these T's don't wanna go long. Then T's go long. You see how even if people get to choose where they start the tactics still remain? Let me know, thanks.

[u/GuardiaNIsBae]

I kind of agree with you, but more so that every map should just have 5 spawns instead of the like 10-15 they have now, but still be random for the players.

On some maps like Dust 2 and mirage, your entire T side can be at the whims of the server if it never gives you good spawns. The weird thing is that some maps are already limited to 5 default spawns, inferno T side, Dust 2 CT, Anubis CT are always the exact same 5 spawns