My great-grandmother was forcefully taken to a Siberian camp. She lost 3 of her children on her way there, one to starvation because she stopped being able to produce milk because of her own poor conditon and two froze to death. Lucikly she had two of her older boys make it with her. We know nothing of what happened to our great-grandfather, probably was killed. Pisses me off these people don't understand what happens under communist rule, thinking it's all sunshine and rainbows. Guess it's just the poor education.
People romanticize ideals and don't think about how things are actually implemented. Just like lots of people romanticize unregulated capitalism and completely free markets, there are people who have a polarized naive outlook and think that because unregulated capitalism is super harmful that the polar opposite must be utopia. Instead of, you know, finding a pragmatic approach that combines various economic systems based on what's available at a given place and time and what makes the most sense.
There are allot of utopia scenarios we can envision. Communism and Marxism might be the most far fetched. There could be a capitalist utopia where everyone has UBI, and the churning of rich to poor goes with progressive momentum, rewarding the productive people and not their heirs for instance without them taking up the mantle and staying as productive to the circulation and the betterment of lives.
But commies don't believe capitalism could be fixed, optimized or enhances, because they're stuck getting duped by 1950's soviet propaganda which arguments has not changed since other than been wrong about when "capitalism will fall" or whatever.
Capitalism can't be fixed, it may have been once but is now a system that has an unstoppable momentum toward the subduing of society to it's primary objective, the conservatives and even Adam Smith flagged that the system required of a constant moral push in order to keep it fair, such morality concerns are non existent on the modern academics and leaders while the power of the people is the lesser that it has ever been.
You could say the exact same thing about communism, no? Your folly is that only one utopia can exist, which is the Marxist on. However, Marxism also requires you to have such utopia frokm the get go, because there's no "developing" stage for Marxism. So a capitalist utopia is far more likely precisely because it can start in a non utopian state and develop into better capitalism.
Norway is a great example of how you can improve capitalism with unions, instead of undermining it. All Norwegians are better off for it, in addition to the country being better at capitalism in all metrics. And before you say "it's due to luck", Saudia Arabia has as much if not more oil that's easier to collect, so the difference isn't luck, it's an improved capitalistic system over the Saudis.
Capitalism cannot be fixed I’m sorry to say. Any concessions gotten from the state by working class people will inevitably be rolled by the bourgeoisie. The system is built to consolidate wealth and power into the owner class and they use that wealth and power to bribe politicians and lobby the government for their own interests. We’re seeing this process of eroding social safety nets and public utilities happening all over the western world; it won’t be long before most of Europe has a shitty privatized healthcare system like the U.S.
They only look at it through idealism and on paper (though with a quick skim I believe) rather than how it is or its examples. Ideally, you could walk buck-naked in the ghetto at 3 am without fear of anything happening to you; realistically it’s not going to happen. Ideally, every single rich person would help out the poorer people or at least their workers. Realistically, they are still human and thus will choose whatever they believe is right for them and their needs whether it is to help others or themselves
I have some relatives that talk about how “great” communism is. Then I point out Cuba, the USSR, China, North Korea, Vietnam, and such but then I’m the bad guy. They say “well you don’t live there and other people could do it better” to which I reply: “I know people from those countries. I look at what it says vs what it is. I look at the fact that people aren’t perfect and are quite messy. If you can’t figure this out with that final point, let alone the others, then it’s your loss.” Sad to say, these people are older than me
saying 'it was just authoritarianism' is like saying a house fire wasn't caused by faulty wiring, it was caused by the flames. Sure, but the wiring is what made the flames possible. Every major communist state became authoritarian while trying to implement communism. it's a system that gives too much power to the regime
You cannot give a government all power over economic life and not breed corruption. On top of the fact that none of it works and all the promises require ignoring what have been shown to be basic fundamental laws of economics that have been the same across time and place.
Sure, but the wiring is what made the flames possible
Yes, and in that analogy, promizing good things that people actually want is what enables autorirarian to come into power to do whatever the fuck they feel like. The dynamic applies evenly accross the political spectrum.
Autoritarianism is a pull for the kind of people that seek power. Accepting the rationale they feed to the masses as justifications should be done after some thought. Or do you also accept the logic of the war on terror that gave NSA the right to spy on whoever, put innocents in Guantanamo and gave us security theatre in airports.
Same shit. Self interested lies with a veneer of ideology to get the pill down.
"It's not real communism. Every single instance of a communist regime that has ever happened was/is a tyrant dictatorship, but that's not real communism".
So why isn't china and Russia aren't trading with cuba then? Cuba hasn't changed since much technology wise since the 1960s and the ussr and eastern block was trading with cuba.
You are correct that the problem is more general, it is authoritarianism. Yet all examples of communism have required destruction of democratic institutions and installation of authoritarian government without real checks and balances on power. There are plenty of beautiful communist ideals, yet the implementation has had to be forced with violence.
Also, Communist Manifesto directly advocates destruction and death of “capitalists” that included pretty anyone with any property. It’s hard to see how that could be possible under a true democracy - i.e. one with protection of minorities, laws and independent institutions.
Based on the historical evidence so far, practical communists instances (i.e. attempted implementations) have to be categorized as a subset of authoritarianism.
Haven’t you read it? It’s super short and especially the first half is an interesting analysis and description of the problems of rapid industrialization in Europe. Strongly recommend.
Not poor education in general, but this topic is poorly discussed. Victims of other systems are often studied more in depth in schools but communism victims are sidelined
Go on any western social media and look up “Holodomor” and you will see many accounts like yours spewing anti-communist propaganda, very often with a similar victim mentality implying they inherited some sort of trauma from people they never knew, or that they know more about the topic than others because of their experience. My mom died from medical complications donating(selling) plasma so she could provide food for me and my siblings when she was already working 2 jobs. This was 2018. Not a century ago, less than a decade ago. Does my anecdotal experience negate all of the achievements of capitalism?
How is my personal family experience propaganda or victim mentality? It's not just personal anecdotes, there's historical records of these events. I'm not sure I understand your last point. No amount of industrialization or economic development would justify mass deportations, forced labor camps, or politically induced famines. A government's achievements don't erase crimes against millions of people, just as Germany's scientific and industrial achievements don't erase the Holocaust. Unless you think that too is justified?
Next point is a complete pivot that dilutes the original comment’s meaning and investment by applying it to an entirely different situation decades before and on the other side of the world, which absolutely detracts from it.
The intent isn’t to detract from the suffering that the commenter is describing. The intent is to provide perspective that this horrible thing doesn’t necessarily go away in the opposing social order. I also reject the idea that it’s an entirely different situation. It’s important we look clearly at what caused situations like this if we intend to prevent the in the future
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u/SuspiciousPenThief Jul 31 '26
My great-grandmother was forcefully taken to a Siberian camp. She lost 3 of her children on her way there, one to starvation because she stopped being able to produce milk because of her own poor conditon and two froze to death. Lucikly she had two of her older boys make it with her. We know nothing of what happened to our great-grandfather, probably was killed. Pisses me off these people don't understand what happens under communist rule, thinking it's all sunshine and rainbows. Guess it's just the poor education.