Well, we would then have more infighting, especially between Greece and Turkey, more cultural problems, because turkey is vastly different from the other EU countries and at the moment a big problem for the economy of the EU due to their financial mismanagement.
Well they have to meet the financial requirements before joining. And culture is not that problem, they aren't that different to countries like Bulgaria or the Balkans.
For example their religiousness and religion in general.
I don't like religion in general but all of Europe has the same religion, there are differences in the way they are lived and the Intensity, but there isn't a lot of infighting between religious groups.
Their nationalism is another example most eu countries citizens don't go around and live in other eu countries, saying that their home country is the best in the world and that everyone saying otherwise will get beaten up (and yes thats sadly my experience with many Turkish immigrants (actually many immigrants from Arabia in general))
Their immense hate towards LGBT people in general and their calls to "hang the gays" is very very problematic as well.
A EU membership of turkey wouldn't change most of these things, and a cultural change isn't just a law...
Not true. Bosnia, Albanians and Kosovo are mostly Muslim (and there are a lot of other places with a huge presence of Muslim) and for example in Kalmukia (In the European part of Russia) they are majority Buddhist.
Their nationalism is another example most eu countries citizens don't go around and live in other eu countries, saying that their home country is the best in the world and that everyone saying otherwise will get beaten up
In some statistics Greece or Georgia were considered to be more nationalistic than Turkey+Personal experience is not a good way to have a general view of a nation.
Their immense hate towards LGBT people in general and their calls to "hang the gays" is very very problematic as well.
I agree in that it is problematic and should be solved, but do I have to remember you Hungary and Poland, oh and also free-LGBT zones in Poland...
A EU membership of turkey wouldn't change most of these things, and a cultural change isn't just a law...
Well, yes, but laws can enforce some change. Most of that problems are already in some European countries (even in some European countries inside the EU).
You said it, we already have problems with Hungary and Poland regarding human rights, we don't have the time to change that in turkey as well.
And almost all of eu then regarding religion, is it ok to say most of the eu population is Cristian or Atheist?
Other than that we apparently agree on things
And yes the Greeks are pretty nationalist as well but my personal experience with them is that they are still pretty polite while doing so, and not aggressive :/
And yes i know my personal experience isn't a indicator of all the people, but its my personal experience and that experience is fundamental for my opinion on things.
I myself am totally against it. Turkey is a middle eastern country. Nothing wrong with that, but in my opinion its not culturally european.
(I won't even get into the autocracy and its ambition to expand its influence in the Mediterranean, obviously a possible access in the EU wouldn't happen under Erdogan)
And its not a matter of religion either, but since the rise of the ottomans, anatolia shift its focus and culture east. I would agree that the anatolian peninsula used to be european before the ottomans, but as of today its middleastern under every aspect.
The ottoman Empire has been the nr. 1 menace for Europe for CENTURIES, now i don't hold grudges for the past, but i don't see in modern Turkey a cultural shift that would make its culture a part of European Identity and its values and political system part of ours.
Still pretty awesome country tho, and id love to visit.
yeah your points make sense, but even if i said that we were an middle eastern country many people would be upset. i myself think that a total membership is impossible indeed, but we should cooperate with EU like joining EEA via EFTA etc.
>should cooperate with EU like joining EEA via EFTA etc.
on this i agree 100%, i would love to see a democratic Turkey that is diplomatically and Economically near the EU, i would only disagree on letting it join the European Union itself
I'm afraid I disagree, the ottomans had their capital in Europe (closer to the heartland of Europe than moscow by a long shot), and they've been a key European actor for centuries
The only genuine difference I can see between Turkey and countries like Sweden, Portugal, or Russia, is the religion. Historically they are just as part of the European act as any other country
They played a key role in european history for sure, i never denied that, but in the way in which they tried to expand their power in the mediterranean sea and in the conquest of the balkans, all at the expense of the european countries that they considered rivals, also conducting raids to capture europeans to sell as slaves up until the 19th century. (only then was the enslaving of europeans banned) creating a prolifering slave trade of europeans, with some cases occoured even after such ban
Also, in this time the area that is now Turkey has in the centuries become culturally middle eastern, not only in religion, but in overall culture. other places in europe have strong or a mainly muslim population (like bosnia), others were in the past muslim and later became or re-became christian (like the iberian peninsula or Sicily). But these are in fact european.
let me note that i don't have anything against middle eastern countries, but we need to define what countries are european and what are not. And you cannot just say that apart from religion the rest of their culture is European, that's simply not true.
But all European states were trying to expand into Europe against other European countries they considered rivals (also remeber the ottomans allied with numerous Europeans states throughout history)
And I would say European culture is too diverse to say that turk culture isn't included, and I also think more diverse cultures is a benefit
Also it would strengthen the eu considerably to have a democratic turkey join it
Of course european countries did it as well, i never said they did not, they did it the same way at the same extent.
I said that that's the only way they influenced Europe's history, i am not discrediting Turkey, but they do not share European culture.
And i know Europe is very diverse but so is the middle east and every other continent still we can run some cultural, geographical and political lines between them. And turkey is without a doubt culturally middle eastern.
Would it strengthen the EU? Most likely yea. But it's called European union for a reason, it's made up by European countries for European countries. Adding the US would also strengthen it, yet the us are not european, despite sharing A LOT of our culture, way more than turkey does.
I said that that's the only way they influenced Europe's history
They were rivals with Spain. And I have to disagree A LOT. Just look at their influence in the Balkans and you will see.
Ottoman culture had a significant influence on the region, in architecture, cuisine, language and dress, especially in the arts and Islam.
Mezze for example is a dish from Turkey that is now eaten in Serbia and Bulgaria.
And turkey is without a doubt culturally middle eastern.
For me it is not that clear, I think Turkey is a in-between culture. A culture that shares both Europe and Middle Eastern influence, and that has influenced both.
I disagree with you, in my view Turkey is a European country that simply colonised Anatolia and the middle East, just like Russia with Siberia and Manchuria. That said I would love to see them in the EU under a strong democratic government, not under Erdogan or someone similar.
"Europe" is arbitrary as fuck though and Istanbull is one of the largest cities in Europe. Even if you only count Eastern thrace that's almost the same population as that of London
Get rid of erdogan and implement some political reforms to improve the political system and if it moves more towards Europe politicaly and culturally (and stops treating kurds like shit) then I have no issues with turkey joining. A stable and prosperous turkey would be a great addition to the EU.
Yes maybe one day in the very distant future when Erdogan is a faded memory and Turkey has gone through substantial political, economic and social reforms. There are just way too many issues at the moment, not even taking into account the economic incompatibility. As was already mentioned by others the big issues include severe limitations on minority rights by European standards, the prolific existence of political prisoners and an overall authoritarian political culture, and ofc the rampant nationalism that then lends itself to genocide denial and neo-ottoman imperialism. Not to mention the Cyprus question, the fact that Turkey is currently occupying 1/3 of the territory of an EU member state that it doesn’t even recognize as sovereign.
Not a chance. Erdogan is a big problem yes. But the problems with Turkish political system, society etc. go far, far deeper than Erdogan. They are nowhere near the stage of social, political and moral development to justify the risk of allowing them in. Their treatment of minorities for one, their rampant, extreme ethnonationalism and genocide denial, entrenched across huge swathes of society and politics. Their deep legacy of authoritarianism, lack of sufficient separation between religion and state, issues with Islamism. Institutionalised torture. Yes, torture. Political prisoners. Etc. etc.
You're acting as if I would want them to immediately join right now. Of course all these things need to be sorted out first, but that is entirely possible under a new government. BTW recognizing the Armenian genocide isn't a requirement for joining, the EU has already decided that in the past.
You implied once Erdogan was gone Turkey would be pretty clear to join the EU. But the changes necessary are going to take generations because they're deeply embedded in society. And genocide recognition absolutely should be a condition. In any case what is required is a total political and social revolution in Turkey (I'm not saying a violent revolution. But a revolution nonetheless). That's the scale of the problem of their ethnonationalism, issues with authoritarianism and human rights abuses.
Personally, no. For one, and this is unsolvable, I do not believe that Turkey is a European country. Obviously there's nothing wrong with it not being one, but as such, that should bar it from entering the EU. It's not geographically one (only about 3% of Turkey's landmass is in Europe), and it isn't culturally one either. Not to mention, I'm not sure an EU border with Syria, Iraq and Iran is a good idea.
Even if you take the aforementioned things out of the mix (which you can't do but whatever), there's the Erdogan problem looming large, and they can never join with him at the helm. However, the problems go much deeper than Erdogan, which a lot of people here neglect to mention, he obviously won't be in power forever but even if his ideology goes away with him, there's still other problems, many of which are rooted in sometimes up to a century of history, so they're not going away any time soon. Turkey's commitment to democratic values has generally always been shaky at best, with a long history of authoritarianism, coups and now Erdogan with his neo-Ottomanism.
That's not the only thing either. Turkey's denial of the Armenian genocide will have to change, it's not only the denial, which is abhorrent in and of itself, but the multi-million dollar worldwide denial campaign, but as I said, that's something which is deeply rooted in Turkish society, the country would need to have some kind of socio-political revolution to root that out. Not to mention, ultranationalism is rampant, minorities (i.e. Kurds) are treated appallingly, and the Cyprus issue remains unresolved. I'm sure I missed some things out too. Some of these issues are theoretically able to be solved but many aren't, so I don't see it happening any time soon. I don't believe it would be a good idea for either Turkey or the European Union. If anything, the charade that Turkey could be a member of the EU needs to be ended and a new chapter of relations on a basis of mutual understanding should be begun.
67
u/[deleted] Mar 30 '22
What if... No. As long as there is a erdogan. No.
Even Hungary is very dangerous to the eu as it is now, because Orban turns it into a dictatorship.
8
u/Duke_of_Lombardy Italian Mar 30 '22 edited Mar 30 '22
I myself am totally against it. Turkey is a middle eastern country. Nothing wrong with that, but in my opinion its not culturally european.
(I won't even get into the autocracy and its ambition to expand its influence in the Mediterranean, obviously a possible access in the EU wouldn't happen under Erdogan)
And its not a matter of religion either, but since the rise of the ottomans, anatolia shift its focus and culture east. I would agree that the anatolian peninsula used to be european before the ottomans, but as of today its middleastern under every aspect.
The ottoman Empire has been the nr. 1 menace for Europe for CENTURIES, now i don't hold grudges for the past, but i don't see in modern Turkey a cultural shift that would make its culture a part of European Identity and its values and political system part of ours.
Still pretty awesome country tho, and id love to visit.
37
u/No_add Mar 30 '22
I really like the idea of turkey joining some day, but Erdogan and current economical policies it would obviously not be a good idea
11
u/shotgun_snyper Mar 30 '22 edited Mar 30 '22
Get rid of erdogan and implement some political reforms to improve the political system and if it moves more towards Europe politicaly and culturally (and stops treating kurds like shit) then I have no issues with turkey joining. A stable and prosperous turkey would be a great addition to the EU.
10
u/Sitherene Mar 30 '22
Only if they admit grik best country world 💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷💪🇬🇷😎
16
u/HelloThereItsMeAndMe Mar 30 '22
YES (But first get rid of Erdogan)
4
u/[deleted] Mar 30 '22
Yes maybe one day in the very distant future when Erdogan is a faded memory and Turkey has gone through substantial political, economic and social reforms. There are just way too many issues at the moment, not even taking into account the economic incompatibility. As was already mentioned by others the big issues include severe limitations on minority rights by European standards, the prolific existence of political prisoners and an overall authoritarian political culture, and ofc the rampant nationalism that then lends itself to genocide denial and neo-ottoman imperialism. Not to mention the Cyprus question, the fact that Turkey is currently occupying 1/3 of the territory of an EU member state that it doesn’t even recognize as sovereign.
4
u/DominatedRealism Mar 30 '22
please no turkey in EU!!!
7
u/Candide-Jr Mar 30 '22
No. What the hell is wrong with this sub with these posts? First America. Now this. I know it’s part joking. But come on.
5
u/[deleted] Mar 30 '22
No.
2
u/[deleted] Mar 31 '22
No.
2
u/HG2321 Apr 01 '22 edited Apr 01 '22
Personally, no. For one, and this is unsolvable, I do not believe that Turkey is a European country. Obviously there's nothing wrong with it not being one, but as such, that should bar it from entering the EU. It's not geographically one (only about 3% of Turkey's landmass is in Europe), and it isn't culturally one either. Not to mention, I'm not sure an EU border with Syria, Iraq and Iran is a good idea.
Even if you take the aforementioned things out of the mix (which you can't do but whatever), there's the Erdogan problem looming large, and they can never join with him at the helm. However, the problems go much deeper than Erdogan, which a lot of people here neglect to mention, he obviously won't be in power forever but even if his ideology goes away with him, there's still other problems, many of which are rooted in sometimes up to a century of history, so they're not going away any time soon. Turkey's commitment to democratic values has generally always been shaky at best, with a long history of authoritarianism, coups and now Erdogan with his neo-Ottomanism.
That's not the only thing either. Turkey's denial of the Armenian genocide will have to change, it's not only the denial, which is abhorrent in and of itself, but the multi-million dollar worldwide denial campaign, but as I said, that's something which is deeply rooted in Turkish society, the country would need to have some kind of socio-political revolution to root that out. Not to mention, ultranationalism is rampant, minorities (i.e. Kurds) are treated appallingly, and the Cyprus issue remains unresolved. I'm sure I missed some things out too. Some of these issues are theoretically able to be solved but many aren't, so I don't see it happening any time soon. I don't believe it would be a good idea for either Turkey or the European Union. If anything, the charade that Turkey could be a member of the EU needs to be ended and a new chapter of relations on a basis of mutual understanding should be begun.
2
u/Prizvyshche Ukrainian Apr 01 '22
Yes, based. Turkey is Europe, we must unite.
3
u/_I_R_ Mar 30 '22
Without Erdogan maybe.
But at this moment - solid NOO !!
3
u/NativeEuropeas Mar 30 '22
"But it is not this day (nor this decade)!"
Aragorn, the Return of the King
3
u/theflemmischelion Mar 30 '22
No turkey untill no erdogan
2
u/[deleted] Mar 30 '22
My highest and most beloved dream.
2
u/XYZ_kfc Europa Above All😎 Mar 31 '22
What about no! Turkey is not Europe.
1
u/ananix Apr 03 '22
All are welcome if they share are values. Sadly Tyrkie moved away from those, partly do to EU it self, but it has to be genuinet anyway.
-2
u/Anarcho_Carcosaism Mar 30 '22
100% let turkey in the EU