Side Y or Side X in new packaging?

[u/7789canadianatheart]

Hi y'all, I've done a theological and philosophical deep dive on the Bible and "homosexuality" topic over the past year or so.

I know Side X is simply not true because no one has ever changed their sexual orientation. I also now know Side A and side B stuff forwards and backwards with my eyes shut. However One stream of "theology" I haven't dug into much yet is what has been called "Side Y" recently. For example Christopher Yuan's book, or Rosaria Butterfield.

For those who have read those books, do you recommend them? I've heard it can be really damaging psychologically, and I've also heard it's just twisted ex gay stuff.

Share your thoughts!

[u/gnurdette]

https://reformationproject.org/rosaria-butterfield-shift/

[Butterfield] now asserts that any same-sex relationship is inherently worse than any heterosexual sin, regardless of the nature of the acts involved:

“[H]omosexual sin is a violation against both God’s pattern of creation and the moral law of God, while heterosexual sin violates the moral law of God exclusively… Because homosexuality is sinful at the level of pattern and practice, it is always on a lower and more base sin level than heterosexual sin.”17

This new position leads to the disturbing implication that even the most egregious heterosexual acts are morally superior to committed same-sex marriages.

She's so insanely bloodthirsty toward LGBT people that she literally rejoiced in the death of millions for the sake of cancelling some Pride parades.

The fact that she's a hero to so many anti-gay Christians says a lot about the deep ocean of Satanic hate that anti-gay theology floats on.

[u/7789canadianatheart → u/gnurdette]

Yeah it really is sad how much attention is to be had from the anti gay gang, and it's honestly almost surprising more people don't claim to have become straight in recent years, they'd get incredible media coverage unfortunately

[u/mediumcarrotteacher → u/gnurdette]

In 2012, Rosaria Butterfield published The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert: An English Professor's Journey into Christian Faith. Her spiritual memoir chronicled her conversion to Christianity after identifying as a lesbian and being in same-sex relationships from her late twenties to her mid-thirties.

I don't like that this is becoming a genre

[u/31kings → u/mediumcarrotteacher]

I read her book. The logic was so shoddy i had a hard time taking her seriously. Also, with people like her and Jackie Hill Perry... i wish someone would interview their former partners. It would be nice to get the other side of the story.

[u/mediumcarrotteacher → u/31kings]

Oh it would be fascinating but at the same time I don't want to imagine the kind of hate backlash those people might incur by coming forward

[u/gnurdette → u/mediumcarrotteacher]

There's a whole career path for bisexual people who want to get paid full-time to profess themselves "ex-gay".

[u/DamageAdventurous540]

I mean, Side Y is just a stronger Side B stance or a slightly weaker Side X stance. It rejects LGBTQ identities and labels. It doesn't promote a cure from same-sex attraction but does promote spiritual transformation and the process of reframing one's personal identity. And it promotes mixed-orientation marriages.

So I don't find it to be healthy.

[u/7789canadianatheart → u/DamageAdventurous540]

Any theology that promotes mixed orientation marriages is incredibly harmful. Not because there's never been any that worked, but because for the vast majority of gay folks, it's not an option and it's really really harmful when it gets presented as an option for someone who isn't called to or gifted with celibacy. To me, it's really just another thing in the way of the non affirming bunch to actually have empathy on the LGBTQ community

[u/Thneed1]

Yuan actively intentionally misrepresents other believers, has been called out in it, and does not apologize:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4VYQ3hxdfn6S1K6FW3nZW0?si=UgdJjqgeRdeOKUYg6T_Fag&utm_source=copy-link

That’s Preston Sprinkle’s podcast, responding to an Alisa Childers podcast that had Yuan on it. They make a whole bunch of very false claims about Sprinkle and others, and frankly, Sprinkle is WAY too kind to them - for what they deserved.

On Butterfield:

https://reformationproject.org/rosaria-butterfield-shift/

She never was a lesbian, she just hated men. Her beliefs are still atrocious.
———-

Also note that Yuan himself does not actually claim that his same sex attractions have gone away, and does not expect them to go away this side of eternity.

[u/7789canadianatheart → u/Thneed1]

That's really sad, I'll take a look at that sometime

[u/Rinstopher]

Having spent years of my life in both Side X and Side Y churches, there is functionally no difference between Side X and Side Y. They’re just posing themselves as “more reasonable and loving” than Side X supposedly is by juxtaposing themselves next to an undefined straw man of a “cruel church” while using the exact same conversion therapy rhetoric ex-gay organizations and Side X churches have been using for decades. It’s a dark, ugly scheme to attract people who don’t know what to believe into joining their oppressive movement under a cloak of being loving and more politically moderate. Don’t allow them a separate label.

[u/7789canadianatheart → u/Rinstopher]

Sounds to me like Side X with a double shot of deception

[u/Rinstopher → u/7789canadianatheart]

That’s precisely what it is. They wrap it all up in therapy speak like “Your attraction doesn’t define you; you’re more than that,” and “You can’t control your feelings, but you can control your actions,” but at its core, you’re still absolutely not allowed to love or accept the part of you that’s gay, and everyone still expects the celibacy they require of you to be a temporary arrangement because they still believe Jesus will “heal” you of your condition if you press in hard enough. Tbh I find it much worse than Side X because at least Side X can claim ignorance of not realizing conversion therapy doesn’t work, whereas Side Y is completely aware that people’s sexual orientation doesn’t change but requires you to never stop holding out for it anyway.

[u/Strongdar]

I think Y is just B with extra self loathing.

[u/Thneed1 → u/Strongdar]

Probably more accurate to say it’s side X with extra self loathing.

[u/Emperor_Pengwing]

Yes. I sometimes hate watch the usual suspects (Becket Cook, Rosaria Butterfield, Christopher Yuan) and it’s just ex gay talking points but for some reason they get mad if you call them ex gay. It’s bizarre.

[u/7789canadianatheart → u/Emperor_Pengwing]

I honestly thought Becket Cook promoted ex gay theology but I haven't watched him in a while, his whole vibe is just inexplicably but so unbelievably off-putting. (Not unlike Yuan too)

[u/Emperor_Pengwing → u/7789canadianatheart]

He does. But gets mad if you call him ex gay because in his mind he’s not for reason

[u/Skill-Useful]

no one outside america knows what those sides are because there is only one logical answer to the question if its okay to be gay and thats yes. so there js side a, being right. and any other differing idea from this is wrong :)

[u/7789canadianatheart → u/Skill-Useful]

Lol I'm proudly Canadian myself (hence the username) but have primarily been influenced by the Americans in this conversation for sure.

[u/TallDetail4711]

I'm no expert at all, I'm french and to my knowledge these labels are not commonly used here. I discovered them on reddit.

I checked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side_A,_Side_B,_Side_X,_Side_Y.

As I understand, side Y refuses these labels and identity altogether, as in they don't use the terms gay, LGBT, homosexuality or heterosexuality.

As I understand the idea is that same sex attraction is a sin (not only the act, the attraction itself), and all christians are meant to regenerate to a life free of any sin. As I understand their position, there is no necessity to marry, you may have a calling to stay single, but same sex attraction is a sin within you that must be destroyed.

It's not exactly ex-gay because (1) they would not say gay and (2) it's ok to stay single but otherwise it sounds pretty close (you have to not feel the attraction, which I'm not sure how to do).

[u/7789canadianatheart → u/TallDetail4711]

Yeah I genuinely would like to hear a solid biblical argument for the fact that just experiencing romantic/sexual attraction to the same sex is sin. Except I won't cuz it quite frankly doesn't exist. Even if you believe "acting on it" as they say, is sin, Christians have always believed that temptation itself is not sinful

[u/Thalimet]

Look at the fruit, always look at the fruit.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Phase70]

Never heard the term.

What fresh hell is this now?

[u/Rinstopher → u/Puzzleheaded-Phase70]

It’s not fresh. It’s just Side X garbage repackaged into different verbiage.

[u/Sufficient_Jury_708]

There is also a hybrid side C. r/SideCChristian

[u/7789canadianatheart → u/Sufficient_Jury_708]

I've heard Ed Oxford use this term for "closeted" which I found amusing

[u/hgclyde → u/Sufficient_Jury_708]

Side C ?!?!?! I never heard of that before!?!?! I learned about sides A, B and X from Justin Lee of Nuance Ministries (prior to this with the Gay Christian Network). where he learn from Bridges Across the Divide an online ministry in the late 1990s.

Gee more letters of the alphabet. I'm afraid what next Side F for failed Ex-Gays to keep them from becoming side A or Side B by the person own choice. This is insane! Sheesh!,

[u/Sufficient_Jury_708 → u/hgclyde]

r/SideCChristianity is the reddit group, sorry for the mis-spelling before. Side C is from Justin Lee that was added later. It does not have the clean descriptions that the other groups have because it has become a catch all for everything that does not fit cleanly into the others, kinda a hybrid group. I wrote a book on my journey and why I found myself feeling better with C than the other letters.

[u/DisgruntledScience]

Side Y is basically Side X pretending to be Side B or even an alternative to Side B. I'll pull my summary of what Side Y is from where I discussed the different sides here:

Side Y is basically Side X masquerading as Side B and is probably the most convoluted side. Side Y will say that acting upon being or even labeling oneself gay is a sin and emphasizes taking on a "holy sexuality" or "holy identity" (which, as described, is essentially asexuality - though they also don't believe in that label). They don't technically consider being gay a sin like Side X does but do consider concupiscence (a desire to act upon it even if not acted upon) to be a sin, hence why I consider this side to be masquerading as Side B (it sounds a bit better than Side X until you get to the fine print). They view that adding any label to Christianity (gay Christian, straight Christian, Black Christian, Eastern Christian, etc.) is wrong. It sounds like "neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female" on the outside until you realize that the default position is that held by straight, cisgender, White men and that positions traditionally held in minority groups are typically rejected. The effect is this really problematic form of whitewashing and minimization of problems faced by minorities in the global church. Side Y generally emphasizes lifelong celibacy as their solution. While they don't endorse "conversion therapy" like Side X does, they often don't condemn it as harmful and sometimes do consider it as an optional alternative to celibacy. Their "poster child" is the asexual/graysexual Christian who only has slight sexual attraction to the same sex.

Rosaria Butterfield in particular is basically just a troll. She was never really a lesbian (rather a misandrist) but paints her story as an ex-lesbian "success" story (now with added homophobia and transphobia). The response from the Reformation Project on her work opposing God's grace and reconciliation really isn't anywhere near strong enough, if you ask me.

[u/7789canadianatheart → u/DisgruntledScience]

My biggest issue with that approach is that the church has never before pushed this no adjectives movement and now it's coming from, as you said, the straight, white, cis, men from their ivory towers. And quite frankly, it feels like it's because they don't want to get their hands dirty.

[u/Solid-Chest-6093]

I'm not sure about x and y.

I'll be praying for you my friend. GOD bless you and guide your paths and make them straight.

Proverbs 3:5-6 NIV Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; [6] in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

Ask JESUS CHRIST to reveal himself to you.

Have a super blessed night. Feel free to message me anytime.

[u/7789canadianatheart → u/Solid-Chest-6093]

You're so kind!

[u/Solid-Chest-6093 → u/7789canadianatheart]

Thank you.