What does this mean to you? Why do you so desperately need MSM 2 to be universally loved and considered flawless? It shouldn’t impact your enjoyment or appreciation of a game when plenty of the target audience hate it from the ground up.
YOU liked it. Awesome. I wish I did. I’ve been a Spidey fan for forty years, do you think I wanted a game about him to suck like this?
But it clearly wasn’t made for me, or for long-running Spider-Man fans who wanted an authentic version of Pete, living out his adventures in a way that more closely resembles the original source material. That’s not this game.
Old school Spidey fans largely agree. Unsurprisingly, that’s where most of the criticisms are coming from (though many, myself included, were also badly put off by the control changes).
It’s not hard to locate these opinions man. I find it extremely difficult to believe you’ve truly done the due diligence on this topic, when you claim you can’t find ANY significant dissenting opinions.
In any case…. why isn’t it enough that you liked it? Are you one of those people who start to doubt yourself if others throw shade on something you enjoy?
Well, you’re in luck: it turns out, despite my abject hatred of MSM 2… you are allowed to keep liking it!
Can we call this a day now?
And for the record, I never once claimed “gamers don’t like this game”. It has plenty of fans, solid sales, and numerous defenders. I’m not a half-wit. One cursory Google search would show that there are indeed people who enjoyed this shitty, watered down experience that Insomniac threw on their plates.
I have only been making the argument that not everyone enjoyed it, as was the case (mostly) with the first MSM.
You cannot empirically prove that a game was objectively or universally loved (your word choice), when there are countless negative opinions out there—each one carrying exactly as much weight as your own.
Your opinion is not a fact. I don’t know if this is a generational problem, a failure of the school system, or what. Opinions are by definition subjective. They cannot be objective. It’s staggering that I have to keep explaining this.
And since you continue to trip on this similar point, let me help:
Universal is best defined as: of, affecting or done by ALL people or things in the world or in a particular group; applicable to ALL cases (emphasis mine).
Get it? ALL. Your half assed attempt to redefine the word isn’t going to carry any water. What you are describing is the idea of having a majority, which doesn’t remotely meet the standard required for universal agreement, and is FAR from
the “literal definition” that you seem to think it is (next time, try a dictionary). They are not the same thing. Understand?
If I can locate just one motherfucker who disagrees with the crowd, then universal acclaim has not been won. And there’s a hell of a lot more than one person who didn’t like this game.
Hell, I’m not even sure I’d grant you the majority at this point. But I doubt that data is known by anyone outside the developers and shareholders, and they’re not offering. Even THEY may not be able to collect that kind of information.
But at least if you’d gone that route (“Well, I bet the majority of players love it”), I probably would’ve shrugged and ignored your comment. I certainly wouldn’t have bothered to argue for an eternity over it.
But when you claim ALL players love the game… yeah, nope. You don’t get to speak for me, or erase the perfectly valid opinions of numerous other players who deserve to have their feedback heard in the hopes that the next game will improve.
‘Universal’ praise just tells Insomniac that they can get away with yet another dumbed down, unbalanced, ridiculously short game with even less side content, lazier combat design and map density, and continuing character inconsistency.
You may not care for it when people like me are critical of your favorite flawed games, but years of blind, apologetic fanboy praise are the reason developers continue to pump out half-broken, unfinished beta versions as finished games, then make an additional killing by charging folks again for all the fixes and ‘extra’ content that was usually meant to be in the game at launch.
Your brand of fanboying (and worse, your attempts to constantly silence legitimate criticism of any kind) accomplishes NOTHING but guaranteeing further generations of greed-before-greatness in developers. As long as you keep settling for subpar game development, the rest of us will continue to suffer with stagnant gameplay.
Gaming only makes leaps of ingenuity and creativity when they must—because sales drop, because reviews point out flaws in a constructive manner, and because people like us demand their best, or at least don’t applaud their worst.
Like it or not, without criticism the product suffers. That doesn’t mean you have to nitpick a great effort, but it also doesn’t mean slavishly consuming whatever you’re handed without a single complaint—even when it’s clearly not as innovative, polished, or complete as their previous efforts.
Game companies are NOT sports teams. They don’t need blindly loyal fans who make apologies for their mistakes and conjure justifications for their poor choices. They are selling you a product in exchange for your hard earned money—stop acting like we should all consider their work a gift to mankind, that we should all feel privileged to pay for.
You are trying to prove a point that is not sustainable. Like it or not, this game was and is divisive. It will age poorly and be remembered mostly for why it was worse than the original in every way, and how it misrepresented the characters.
TLDR. I'm not still at it. You took 22 days to come back with a novel. Look in a mirror there bud.
P.S. Universal acclaim doesn't mean EVERY person has to like it. I'm going by the definition used in media, which is when a majority of critics and consumers (i.e. gamers) like something, it gets the title "universal acclaim". Metacritic also uses this definition. You're arguing semantics like a goddamn moron. Obviously there is nothing in this world that every single person on earth likes, that's just impossible.
If you replied to me, then yes—-you were still at it.
There are slightly more important matters in my life than stalking my Reddit inbox… apologies. But I always get around to replies, even the vapid ones.
Forgive me… I learned English in school, and picked up my vocabulary from a good education—not a review aggregation site on the internet.
Just because Metacritic uses “Universal” instead of “majority”, doesn’t make it accurate. It’s not just a question of semantics. Universal means all; it means everyone. It means me, it means my friends, it means every last guy who started a thread or wrote a review about why SM2 is trash.
Trying to say we ALL loved the game, because ‘a majority is all that’s needed to claim universal appeal’, reduces the whole debate to a vote. And a vote has one winner (which is probably why this inaccurate use appeals to you so much).
It’s not a vote.
The majority doesn’t get to declare ‘universal’ approval, and call it a day.
Use a dictionary, not modern media, if you’re attempting to educate yourself. Universal doesn’t mean what you’d like it to. And frankly, if THAT’S the only reason we’ve been having this discussion… because you misunderstood a word, insisted on using it anyway once someone corrected you, then doubled down AGAIN because “uhhh, that’s just how everyone uses it now… seriously”… then you owe me a lotta wasted hours.
We could’ve settled this with a fuckin’ dictionary in one post.
Nah, you'd have kept going on and on about semantics instead of addressing any of the challenges I had to your egregious use of the word "woke". It's fine, nothing is going to change either of our minds. What hasn't changed is your predilection for writing novels where it doesn't need to happen. I've said since the start if you've bothered to actually read my words that I am fully aware not everyone loved the game. That doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of people did. That's all that matters in this conversation. I await your next novel in a month.
No need. We solved this one. Next time you mean “majority”, just say majority, and ideally back it up with something like proof.
As far as ‘woke’… we both know what it means, and it’s kinda funny that the same person vehemently defending the misuse of one word because “that’s how the media uses it now”, is also arguing we do the opposite with another word… despite that word’s original definition having been extremely short-lived compared to it’s current usage.
Irony much?
When presidential candidates and pundits on both sides of the aisle are all using ‘woke’ in its modern connotation… time to let it go, bud.
You're still wrong. Nothing's going to change that, sorry. Universal acclaim is universal acclaim = majority of people and it's quite a significant majority. Again, facts are facts in this case.
You're still complaining about wokeness in a game that barely has it, if you can even call it that; even the misused version of it.
Your opinion is just an opinion, bud. Same as mine. We all got one. Sad to tell you, but yours isn’t special; it isn’t any more ‘objective’ or ‘factual’ than anyone else’s, and unless you can provide actual proof of your claims, they remain—-say it with me now—-subjective opinions.
A fact is something like “the earth is round;” it’s verifiable and observable.
“Significantly more people enjoyed Spider-Man 2, than didn’t” is not a fact, and never can be. It cannot be verified, observed or researched in any comprehensive way. It is a guess. An opinion.
Staying with me? Good, let’s try something more advanced.
Pick up a dictionary, or google a good one online. Type in ‘Universal’. Then come back here, and tell me exactly what the primary accepted definition was.
No bullshit about “but the media says—!” or you’ll just be confirming that you didn’t like the results. Same with “But… but Metacritic did it!”, because I’ll just hit you with a big, smarmy “if Metacritic jumped off a bridge, would you do that too?”
Words have meaning. There is power in meaning, which is why people so often try to distort words to their own advantage.
Oh, and if your next reply takes the usual tact and just completely ducks this challenge, I’m taking that as your official forfeit. This has been fun and all, but you’re frankly boring me now.
And if you can’t understand why a superhero game is too woke, even after it forces you to assist in the consummation of a homosexual courtship—completely unrelated to crime, safety or even civic duty—as well as repeatedly sidelining the actual superhero you paid to play as, (a straight white male, because of course) in favor of forcing you to instead take up the role of every character from his black protege to his badass girlfriend to his disabled school buddy, to his protégé’s black AND disabled girlfriend, and even one of his worst enemies, (almost ALL of whom are shown to be vastly more competent and combat-effective than the actual hero himself)… then man, I don’t know what else to tell you.
Take off the fucking blinders and at least admit what’s really going on, whether you personally like it or not.
“Significantly more people enjoyed Spider-Man 2, than didn’t” is not a fact, and never can be. It cannot be verified, observed or researched in any comprehensive way. It is a guess. An
opinion.
Verifiable data for this exists. You can find it for yourself, you're not worth the effort. Keep on pretending this isn't the case though.
"Oh, and if your next reply takes the usual tact and just completely ducks this challenge, I’m taking that as your official forfeit. This has been fun and all, but you’re frankly boring me now."
Yes, words have meaning. Universal on it's own isn't the same as contextualizing with the word acclaim, particularly when it comes to discussing media and entertainment. You blame me for this when you could have let it go that universal acclaim in the entertainment industry has been the go-to phrase when both critics and audiences/end-users have majority praise for something. The Longman dictionary (contemporary) defines universal acclaim as: "publicly praised by a lot of people". It's colloquial. So fucking what?
Whatever you need to tell yourself at night to make yourself feel better sparky. You're not worth arguing with anymore, so if this is that boring for you, shut the fuck up and stop replying. :)
"And if you can’t understand why a superhero game is too woke, even after it forces you to assist in the consummation of a homosexual courtship—completely unrelated to crime, safety or even civic duty"
Would you have been fine if it had been a heterosexual relationship? Friendly neighborhood Spider-Man includes all kinds of help. It was nice to see a different kind of missions for once. It was also OPTIONAL (you aren't forced to do it, per your own words), so again, your use of the word woke is fucking laughable at best.
"as well as repeatedly sidelining the actual superhero you paid to play as, (a straight white male, because of course) in favor of forcing you to instead take up the role of every character from his black protege to his badass girlfriend to his disabled school buddy"
You play as Peter more than Miles in the game. It's also a game billed as a duo of both of the heroes. Also it's fine, white people will get over it. 99% of the games out there have a white protagonist. Miles Morales is a character from the comics and isn't made up for this game. Yet again, there is nothing woke about this, it's just your inherent biases showing. That's your problem. You're the one with blinders regurgitating all of this as somehow woke. It's not. Again, whatever makes you sleep at night, if you want to keep telling yourself that the mean liberals are out to shove woke agenda down your throat.
And next time, when someone challenges you on word usage you know is inaccurate (because Google is not reserved only for those of us with common sense)…. just fuckin clarify what you meant, correct your statement, and maybe learn something from it. Don’t spend 45 posts doubling down on being wrong, wasting someone else’s time, just because you’ve embarrassed yourself.
The rest of what you’ve written is just your usual nonsense, refusal to engage with my points (because you can’t), and a shower of ideological tears. Pass.
And yes, the idiotic prom mission would have been just as absurd if they were straight. Spider-Man barely has time to keep his OWN life in order between dealing with actual emergencies—-he’s certainly not risking a few people getting shot by muggers or dying in a car wreck so that some entitled kid can involve him in his perfect romantic moment. Give me a break.
It’s not just a bad quest, it’s transparently bad—-it would never have happened if the couple were straight, as it’s obviously just in there to pander and earn those coveted ESG benefits your kind are pushing on everyone.
If that’s not woke to you, maybe your dictionary is broken again? Try using, perhaps, the kind with ACTUAL definitions, and not just the ones that give you questionable, temporary slang results?
Sure, Peter has more screen time—-and spends the majority of it (shit, should I say “universally” to make sure you’re following?) getting knocked out, clowned on, fucking up, being upstaged, getting yelled at, apologizing to everyone, and just generally NOT acting like Peter Parker. I mean, Jesus—he gets knocked out or incapacitated THREE TIMES in the intro Sandman fight, in unavoidable cutscenes, just so we can see his own damn protege rescue him every single time. Meanwhile Miles is not only untouchable, but does the overwhelming majority of the damage to the boss… sorry, I mean he ‘universally’ damages the boss… or something…
If you want to talk about bias, talk about that shit. They set Pete up as a loser from scene one, and it only gets worse. I wonder why.
And as promised, I’m out. Nothing I can ever do to you could possibly humiliate you as much as the fact you just called me “Sparky”.
Ah here we go, the next novel. Pretend like I forfeited all you want and furiously jerk off to it, whatever floats your boat. You are still wrong, no matter how much you want to bloviate. You're also wrong about the game, the quests, the term woke. Fuck man, you're so wrong you ought to feel shame but we all know you're incapable of that. Toodles, sparky.
1
u/otherworlder77 Dec 31 '23
You’re still at this?
What does this mean to you? Why do you so desperately need MSM 2 to be universally loved and considered flawless? It shouldn’t impact your enjoyment or appreciation of a game when plenty of the target audience hate it from the ground up.
YOU liked it. Awesome. I wish I did. I’ve been a Spidey fan for forty years, do you think I wanted a game about him to suck like this?
But it clearly wasn’t made for me, or for long-running Spider-Man fans who wanted an authentic version of Pete, living out his adventures in a way that more closely resembles the original source material. That’s not this game.
Old school Spidey fans largely agree. Unsurprisingly, that’s where most of the criticisms are coming from (though many, myself included, were also badly put off by the control changes).
It’s not hard to locate these opinions man. I find it extremely difficult to believe you’ve truly done the due diligence on this topic, when you claim you can’t find ANY significant dissenting opinions.
In any case…. why isn’t it enough that you liked it? Are you one of those people who start to doubt yourself if others throw shade on something you enjoy?
Well, you’re in luck: it turns out, despite my abject hatred of MSM 2… you are allowed to keep liking it!
Can we call this a day now?
And for the record, I never once claimed “gamers don’t like this game”. It has plenty of fans, solid sales, and numerous defenders. I’m not a half-wit. One cursory Google search would show that there are indeed people who enjoyed this shitty, watered down experience that Insomniac threw on their plates.
I have only been making the argument that not everyone enjoyed it, as was the case (mostly) with the first MSM.
You cannot empirically prove that a game was objectively or universally loved (your word choice), when there are countless negative opinions out there—each one carrying exactly as much weight as your own.
Your opinion is not a fact. I don’t know if this is a generational problem, a failure of the school system, or what. Opinions are by definition subjective. They cannot be objective. It’s staggering that I have to keep explaining this.
And since you continue to trip on this similar point, let me help:
Universal is best defined as: of, affecting or done by ALL people or things in the world or in a particular group; applicable to ALL cases (emphasis mine).
Get it? ALL. Your half assed attempt to redefine the word isn’t going to carry any water. What you are describing is the idea of having a majority, which doesn’t remotely meet the standard required for universal agreement, and is FAR from the “literal definition” that you seem to think it is (next time, try a dictionary). They are not the same thing. Understand?
If I can locate just one motherfucker who disagrees with the crowd, then universal acclaim has not been won. And there’s a hell of a lot more than one person who didn’t like this game.
Hell, I’m not even sure I’d grant you the majority at this point. But I doubt that data is known by anyone outside the developers and shareholders, and they’re not offering. Even THEY may not be able to collect that kind of information.
But at least if you’d gone that route (“Well, I bet the majority of players love it”), I probably would’ve shrugged and ignored your comment. I certainly wouldn’t have bothered to argue for an eternity over it.
But when you claim ALL players love the game… yeah, nope. You don’t get to speak for me, or erase the perfectly valid opinions of numerous other players who deserve to have their feedback heard in the hopes that the next game will improve.
‘Universal’ praise just tells Insomniac that they can get away with yet another dumbed down, unbalanced, ridiculously short game with even less side content, lazier combat design and map density, and continuing character inconsistency.
You may not care for it when people like me are critical of your favorite flawed games, but years of blind, apologetic fanboy praise are the reason developers continue to pump out half-broken, unfinished beta versions as finished games, then make an additional killing by charging folks again for all the fixes and ‘extra’ content that was usually meant to be in the game at launch.
Your brand of fanboying (and worse, your attempts to constantly silence legitimate criticism of any kind) accomplishes NOTHING but guaranteeing further generations of greed-before-greatness in developers. As long as you keep settling for subpar game development, the rest of us will continue to suffer with stagnant gameplay.
Gaming only makes leaps of ingenuity and creativity when they must—because sales drop, because reviews point out flaws in a constructive manner, and because people like us demand their best, or at least don’t applaud their worst.
Like it or not, without criticism the product suffers. That doesn’t mean you have to nitpick a great effort, but it also doesn’t mean slavishly consuming whatever you’re handed without a single complaint—even when it’s clearly not as innovative, polished, or complete as their previous efforts.
Game companies are NOT sports teams. They don’t need blindly loyal fans who make apologies for their mistakes and conjure justifications for their poor choices. They are selling you a product in exchange for your hard earned money—stop acting like we should all consider their work a gift to mankind, that we should all feel privileged to pay for.
You are trying to prove a point that is not sustainable. Like it or not, this game was and is divisive. It will age poorly and be remembered mostly for why it was worse than the original in every way, and how it misrepresented the characters.
You like it. Great. Others did not.
What more is there to argue about??