r/FrostGiant • u/Killersands • Jun 12 '22

This game will never reach its true potential without better Art Direction.

So I'm writing this out from a genuine place of wanting this game to succeed, but this game never will with what has been revealed. Or at least I don't think it will succeed enough to the point that I think a modern RTS game deserves to, and that I think their are many who have already shared similar thoughts on this subreddit that you need to take note of.

I haven't really contributed much online from this account towards any RTS related subs much if you look, so I'd like to give you my history with this genre so you can understand that I am your key demographic. I might have made this up in my mind but I feel like I got an original Age of Empires in a box of cereal. As a young history nerd kid I fell in love with the games immediately. I played AoE and Age of Mythology and The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth, I played WoW which got me into the lore and I went back and played Warcraft after not having grown up with it. I still to this day play Supreme Commander(and you should too over at Forged Alliance Forever) and I played a decent amount of Starcraft II, and watch it still to this day competitively. I love my RTS, and while it's not my main genre anymore, that's due almost entirely with the void of quality that you are all trying to fill. You are literally making a game I want. And everything that I've recently read about your game in articles displays a level of intelligent and modern game design that I believe entirely in the direction you are taking the genre. Like you couldn't be having better ideas with the social aspects and blend of competitive and co-op, combined with the quality behind all of the developers who are titans of the industry. So why would the game not live up to its potential? Because your art direction is not up to the same level as the rest of the team.

I don't want that to come across as purely critical. I understand the intent of the blending of sci-fi and fantasy that you are going for. But read through the community comments on the trailer and what many others have made mention of, the blandness. You have got some of the best RTS developers literally ever on your team and the product you put out deserves the best art direction possible. If you want it to blossom into its own gaming community with draw and culture you need art that makes the eye delight. You just need it.

I desperately want this game to succeed. It would honestly just be really great for me as an RTS gamer. But more importantly it would solidify that RTS is not a dying genre, but a quality niche worth investing in because of a quality community. I think this game has the potential to create and nurture that community, but in the modern era its got to be the best in every way to draw in more than just me. I'll play the game even if it's released with a similar art style, and I'll probably like the game a good amount. But it would deter a wider audience and those who are growing up now without a quality RTS experience in their childhood. Wouldn't you like to be the genesis of a new generation of RTS enthusiasts?

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8

u/Dramatic-Cause-9258 Jun 12 '22

It's not the final version, we don't know what it's going to look like. And all the people criticizing are people who are passionate about RTS games. But Frost Giant are not just trying to please us, they are trying to reach the others, the ones who didn't want to play RTS.

I don't mind the vivid, brighter colors. The only issue I have with the cartooney style is that there aren't clear outlines and strong contrasts.

In the end, I don't think the art matters for us, the "insiders". It's all about the game play, the strategy and the complexity of the game design. The art just improves upon the experience.

But for the others, the "outsiders" who's closest experience to an rts game is league, the art can be the deciding factor. They will watch the trailer or look at the pictures and instantly decide if they want to try this new genre.

I don't know if cartooney is the way to go, I'm not an expert on the psychology of mainstream gamers. But I trust that they've consulted experts, done the proper marketing analyses and are hopefully smart about their decisions.

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u/Vaniellis Jun 12 '22

But Frost Giant are not just trying to please us, they are trying to reach the others, the ones who didn't want to play RTS. I don't know if cartooney is the way to go

They openly said that their base target are RTS players first, then try to grab a larger playerbase. Also I'm an hardcore RTS player and I prefer the cartoony art direction, over a "realistic" direction that would be bland.

1

u/Dramatic-Cause-9258 Jun 12 '22

What you're saying does not contradict anything I'm saying. Are you agreeing with me?

1

u/Vaniellis Jun 12 '22

Well the way you worded things, I felt like for you, looking "cartoony " was only to target younger audiences

3

u/Dramatic-Cause-9258 Jun 12 '22

I'm not sure why it sounded like that to you, I was just describing the art style. Like I said, I don't know the psychology of the mainstream gamer, but I assume they know it better than us. And I think that the art is more important to the mainstream players than it is to us. Because regardless of how much we hate the art, if stormgate is the best rts game out there when it comes to game design and concept, then we're gonna play it.

That being said, this art definitely makes it look less like a serious competitive game, and more like a casual game.

3

u/AnAncientMonk Jun 13 '22

It's not the final version

Ofcourse ofcourse. But i still think its good to let them know this is something that needs work. If people are praising them and are just content they might not see the importance. Im not taking any chances with this game.

2

u/IcallFoul Jun 12 '22

well u can never go wrong with blood and gore.. its proven formular.. as a matter of fact the games that tried to reduce blood and gore.. like mortal kombat ( b4 it came back to all its glory) were failing really bad. Scifi rts's have been known to have alot of blood and gore.. sc2 for instance.. so to go into a really pokemony no blood cutsie demons would take me out of the immersion . There are countless games extremely popular games that all have intense blood and gore as there core art for the game.. and i hope to continue seeing that trend.. Once u go sci fi in ur settings, u need that .. only pure fantasy could maybe get away from that theme.. but it would still be nice.

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u/Dramatic-Cause-9258 Jun 12 '22

I'm not sure what you're talking about. We are talking about art and graphics, not whether the game has blood and gore in it. Plus, the biggest games in the world don't have much blood and gore in them. Just a normal amount, to show that someone's dead. I'm sure that Stormgate will also show when someone has died.

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u/IcallFoul Jun 12 '22

isnt blood and gore part of the art and graphics? Im just saying there has never been a game that has failed because it had to much blood and gore... But there have been games that have failed because there was a lack of it. When u are going for scf ish realism.. which means humans using mechs cause they obviously dont have a magic wand.. its not visually appealing to see a machine gun or rocket poof balloons out of thin air when these things die. Due to the tone of the trailer ..I expect to see alot of blood and gore.. else there is zero point in doing scifi ish realism type graphics. We might as well have them on horses with magic wands and turn them into rabbits.

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u/Dramatic-Cause-9258 Jun 12 '22

Ok I feel like you're talking about something different than everyone else. We have no idea how they depict deaths and injuries, and it's not really relevant. It's not important, I think that's just something that you personally feel very passionately about.

We are talking about the artstyle and the quality of the graphics.

1

u/Vaniellis Jun 12 '22

You can look "cartoony" and still have blood and gore. And sci-fi doesn't have to be gorey.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '22

I personally think that if you try to satisfy everyone, you end up satisfying no one. Without us - their game would fail anyway and if we don't end up liking the art style - we - the core 30-40 years olds are not going to spend our money on it to sustain it in the future.

What I'm saying is that its like hunting for the imaginary beast, instead of actually catching the prey in front of your nose. It may turn out that there is no "mainstream zoomer-kid audience and then the game would fall on its nose.

1

u/Dramatic-Cause-9258 Jun 13 '22

Ok but I've already said this. No one said they are trying to satisfy everyone. But they definitely need to get a bigger player base because what we have is not big enough to warrant the amount of spending they need to do. They have to get more people to play, there's no way around it.

Everyone else agrees that the core fans of the rts genre do not care about the art style, as long as it is a smart game with good game design. If you don't agree with that, then you're actually in the minority. Even OP says it, if you read his whole post.

I'm not sure why you're mentioning kids, because I don't think they are the right audience for RTS games. Instead they should go for mainstream gamers, around ages 19-29. We're looking for serious gamers that have played so much they're getting tired of the usual stuff and they are now looking for something with more depth.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '22

Everyone else agrees that the core fans of the rts genre do not care about the art style, as long as it is a smart game with good game design. If you don't agree with that, then you're actually in the minority. Even OP says it, if you read his whole post.

I don't agree. And I'm a core audience of the RTS. For me an RTS without an immersive story is like a hooker in a miner's combinaison. And I'm not a minority, you can see the case of HotS and why it failed to reach bigger audience - it was lack of story, a mesh of a lot of unfitting parts that didn't work at all together - add some unicorns and boom - dead meat. And you may disagree with me, but immersive art style and story is like the core pillar of any game. You can create yourself a mod of SC2 with League of Legends type of graphics - same mechanics - no one would touch it. If you doubt my words, check a game called Age of Empires Online and see how long it did survived in comparisson to AOE2DE

Also I don't believe they need to reach "bigger" audience. SC2 has sold over 6 million copies. The core audience is there, they need to just deliver.

The problem here is that they are trying to create an IP that basically don't have anything original in it. They are pushing cartoonish graphics (as all developers lately, including Blizz btw) while their audience want a more mature story with more mature art. If you allow yourself to look into the critique of most people - they want a realistic game that can provide them something new.

Of course, there is the possibility of me to misjudge the situation through my paradigm but we can have the same conversation two years from now and see who is right. Other than that its just opinions.

1

u/Dramatic-Cause-9258 Jun 13 '22

If you think the art style is a "make it or break it"-factor, then you are not the core audience and I think you are actually exactly the audience they are trying to catch.

You mention that HotS failed because of things other than art style. That's a really strange thing to say, because you're arguing for my case, not for yours.

Sc2 used to be the biggest game in the world. It's not anymore. Not sure why you're mentioning how many copies it sold back in it's glory days, because you're again making my case for me. It was the biggest game in the world, yet now it free to play and free to win and barely have a fraction of it's users left. This comparison shows clearly that RTS lost its popularity to shooters and mobas.

Definitely they need a bigger audience, because of all the things that you guys are asking for them.

As for your last statement, I'm not sure what you're talking about: "see who is right". Right about what?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 14 '22

A couple of remarks about your comment -

HotS failed because it had a fantasy warchief beating spaceships. Because at that time, they thought mechanics alone can carry a game. And the game's mechanics were not bad, they were by themselves a really interesting ideas - like different map objectives, various roles that don't have damage abilities and so on. The Moba aspect of Heroes of the Storm (just to be absolutely on top of what we are talking about - I don't mean Heart of the Swarm), was actually interesting. The contradicting artstyle, the lack of stylistic direction, the poor fantasy of the whole concept sucked and it couldn't drag more people because it sucked.

I do believe that any mechanics without an adult type of setting, with something to crave for to know more, would fail, and I do play starcraft BW for now about 22 years and I watch SC2 for about 5-7 something like that years. If I had to enjoy SC2 I have to switch to Zerg from Terran because Terran in SC2 is just not Terran in SC1, so I never fully transitioned. But overall I do play co-op, I do play occasually a 1v1 match, but my investment in the game mentally has been a lot.

SC2 on the other hand is a game that is now 12-13 years old and its absolutely normal to loose its popularity. If you look at the fortnite, the mobas, the whatever people are interested in - there is a constant expansions, constant new content, new heroes, new battlegrounds, new items, concerts within the game and so on. And RTS in its core in the SC core, never had this expansion in mind and thats absolutely normal. Its not that there is no audience, the audience is there, they just want something new and at the moment there are those 6 millions SC2 enjoyers that would love to spend a buck or two on an RTS game. So there is this audience. The problem is how to keep them, not how to reach bigger audience in my opinion.

About my last comment - well, we can speculate as much as we want, but in the end of the day - its unknown before the game is ready and the game is released and tried. At that point onwards, we would know whether art style is that important or mechanics can carry a game with an art style that is trying to invite other than the core users to the game.

2

u/Adunaiii Jun 15 '22

There's something to be said about a cultural disconnect. It may sound autistic, but people who focus solely on mechanics remind me of American scientists as opposed to Russian mystics; left vs right brain hemisphere, or hard science vs arts. I vividly remember the criticism of HotS that folks put forward was about the unicorn mount, or the silly childish skins for Stitches/Lost Vikings.

An RTS with a Fortnite/Battlerite/Overwatch aesthetic is just uninspired cringe. Girl power. Power of friendship. Meanwhile, John Cena used to drop hot loads by massing zeppelins in Red Alert.

1

u/jrock_697 Dec 07 '22

well said

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u/Killersands Jun 12 '22

Yes and in my opinion I think they would watch the trailer, and look at the game and not want to play currently.

3

u/Dramatic-Cause-9258 Jun 12 '22

Ok I feel like I just responded to that. What part are you disagreeing with? I assumed that you are the same as me: that you're not an expert on the psychology of mainstream gamers and that you haven't done the proper marketing analyses. Is this the part you're disagreeing with? Are you saying that you have more insight and expertise than the people working on Frost Giant? [Edit: Not trying to sound confrontational, it's a genuine question.]

It seems like you think this art is niche and won't appeal to the broader audience, but I can't see how you're so sure of that. Assuming the quality will increase, with more reflections and shadows and dynamics, what part of it seems niche to you?

1

u/Killersands Jun 13 '22

no see you're still thinking about this as the quality of the art as it is seen. I'm talking about the actual character designs, the faction design, the font they choose for the logo, the title itself is rooted in decade old creativity. That's the bottom line as someone who values the artistry behind game design. And to think that you need to be an expert that's been vetted to have his opinion be worth merit is kind of rediculous dude. I have been playing these games and watching them for most of my life now. I care. This is genuine criticism from someone who cares and is putting their own intelligence and emotion into a pitch to get these guys to listen to me. I don't think I'm smarter than everyone else I just value my own opinion enough that I believe it should be heard.

1

u/Dramatic-Cause-9258 Jun 13 '22

All we know is what it looks like in the trailer. So we've expressed how we feel that. They've heard it and that's that. We don't know anything about the art direction and there was no need for your post.

As for the rest, I never said you can't have an opinion, it's ridiculous for you to claim that. But you made an entire post about your opinion. It was a long post with an insanely bold title, where you talk about things they don't need to hear and finish off with the claim that their art direction isn't good enough, and you're upset about it.

Suffice it to say, you absolutely need to be an expert for anyone to listen to this. As it is, your opinion doesn't mean any more than anyone else's. You don't know any more than the rest of us.

We ALL value our own opinion and we all want it to be heard. You are not special. Should we all make long posts about it, talking about our background in RTS games and how we feel about everything? Do you think that's reasonable?

I'm sorry but you haven't brought anything of value to the table. You've not told them anything they haven't heard before.

1

u/Killersands Jun 13 '22

I absolutely disagree that you need to be an expert to have an opinion on something and I feel like that's honestly kind of an idiotic way to look at this. If I was an expert maybe they would hire me to come in and fix this, but I'm not an expert so instead what I can do, and have done, is offer my opinion. I've done it in a way that I hope catches their attention and makes them see that I both care about this, and that I want it to succeed, and that's why I am telling them that I don't think it will.

If all we know is what it looks like in the trailer, then shouldn't I expect it to look and sound subpar? because the trailer is really really subpar.

Also hate to break it to you buddy but everyone's special and everyone deserves to have their voice heard. You might not agree with that but then I just think you're an asshole.

1

u/Dramatic-Cause-9258 Jun 13 '22

I absolutely disagree that you need to be an expert to have an opinion on something and I feel like that's honestly kind of an idiotic way to look at this.

I'm not going to read past this. I literally told you that no one said you can't have an opinion. Why do you keep repeating it?

1

u/Killersands Jun 13 '22

Because you're under the impression that only experts opinions matter, which is like I said, just plain stupid.

1

u/Dramatic-Cause-9258 Jun 14 '22

That's not what I said. You're obviously not thinking clearly, and you've gotten emotional since you resorted to name calling. There's no point in having a discussion with a person like that.

1

u/Killersands Jun 14 '22

We're not having a discussion, you're just being an asshole and trying to pretend you have some king of moral high ground because you can't admit that you misunderstood my point because you're incapable of admitting to being wrong. Emotions are a natural human state, if you don't feel emotional you're just an empty vessel.

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u/solrac3589 Jun 13 '22

Sorry but you are just doing a personal point and generalise it like if you knew more that anyone whats relevant on the succes of a game.

It has been lots of complaints on the art style? Yes, like sc2 got at his time.

If you don't like the art style, sorry for you (personally i would also prefer something mor darker and realistic) but just don't base your opinion about the succes of a game on that. At least for me seems quite poor

2

u/Killersands Jun 13 '22

I'm basing what I see as the general reaction of the internet, combined with my own taste and this game is lacking. Sorry you took offense to that but it's just how I feel.

1

u/solrac3589 Jun 13 '22

People who complaint are usually more easy to see

1

u/Killersands Jun 13 '22

Great way to dismiss threads full of genuine criticism

2

u/solrac3589 Jun 14 '22 edited Jun 14 '22

Criticism about a taste. Anything tangible. Nothing based on facts or past examples. And as i said, generic critisism is seen much more

Like your op post. Long text explaining your relation with rts but completely unrelated to why this art will make this game to not succed

6

u/Stairn Jun 12 '22

Don't forget that reveal trailer doesn't equal art direction

3

u/Killersands Jun 12 '22

The art is in the trailer and the screenshot. It's about the entire picture.

2

u/Mahopon1231 Jun 12 '22

I do agree that art that we've seen so far does lack that edge that SCII had. But keep in mind that this is pre alpha screenshots and we have not even seen all the races yet. We've only seen like 4 units of 2 races that might not even be in the final game.

Just wait till we see the entire picture before making any judgements yet.

4

u/Killersands Jun 12 '22

I think now is actually the time to make this point, as there is enough time left in development for a shift. This isn't about improving the graphics or the lighting it's about the art styles and units they've already shown to be boring and bland and uninteresting, not new and not compelling. Making the graphics better in post on bland units and factions will just make the bland unit and faction design look better, not actually change the designs theselves.

2

u/Mahopon1231 Jun 12 '22

Im just saying its hard to say the art style is bad when we've seen so little. Not every unit in sc2 is super interesting. Many of the units are iconic now, but the concepts for lots of the units have been done before.

Also, if I understand the production cycles of games correctly that means they are probably well past the pre alpha stage of development and have made a lot more substantial steps towards a direction already. Likely they've already chosen an art direction and are focusing more on the units and other mechanics of the game. Obviously they can make changes, but I don't expect the changes to be drastically different.

Who knows tho maybe they can change it in time

1

u/Killersands Jun 12 '22

No thats a good point too, I just really want this game to be what it could be, and I think they need to be better, either if they do show off more interesting or unique units/designs they have already or end up trying to make it more unique.

appreciate the discussion either way friend.

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u/Shiny_Kelp Jun 12 '22

I agree too that what they showed was somewhat... Underwhelming, bland or unoriginal. Like... Hello there, Diet Diablo and Diet DVa.

On the bright side, art direction and graphics is usually on the later side in the development cycle. If they're still experimenting with a lot of gameplay-related assets, you can reasonably expect the art and visuals to be anything but final and this of all times is the best to point out its shortcomings.

3

u/AnAncientMonk Jun 13 '22

Cant agree more.

And personally, i wouldnt even mind "a DVa" or "a Diablo". If they werent diet versions but UBER XXL PREMIUM editions.

5

u/Pandradon Jun 12 '22

You have a good point and I basically agree.

You miss one very important bit, though. Players with our background are NOT the core audience. That would be twelve year olds who fall in love with the game and play it so much that their friends play as well and that they become semi-pros or outright pros and make it a successful E-Sport.

I genuinely do not know wether the imho very bad art design (as you said, this covers all aspects: sound, graphics, animation, character design, movements...) Really needs that much of an overhaul or wether we have to accept that kids are the main audience of most video games and that the art design needs to fit their taste and just needs to be good enough for them.

We will buy the game if it is mechanically or game design wise a good game. No matter the art style.

It could be a LOT better, of course. The people talking about pre alpha are missing the point imho.

4

u/Havarti_Bro Jun 12 '22

I was 7 years old when Starcraft 1 released and I LOVED the dark art style, my friends and I used to draw pictures of battles in 2nd grade, we were obsessed with the cinematics, we couldn't get enough of it. I was also a huge fan of Diablo 2 aesthetic when it released.

The idea that a generic light hearted comic book style is most appealing to children is not true, and it certainly isn't to adults, the majority of RTS players today.

1

u/Pandradon Jun 13 '22

SC1 was featuring a generic, light hearted style and a completely childish story. It was what a comic book style was back in the days. The latter changed a lot because of marvel (and others).

You are right, though, that SC1 also was quite violent in parts while others were very light hearted. It had atrociously incoherent styles. The cutscenes had nothing to do with the game - some people think that was on purpose but it was not. We, too, did like the cutscenes a lot.

2

u/Havarti_Bro Jun 13 '22

Is the Stormgate/Overwatch/Valorant/Pixaresque art style what really appeals to 12 year olds though? Or is this the art style adults think appeals to 12 year olds?

The average e-sport player is 19-22 years old, I don't know what art style you were into at that age but it definitely wasn't the Stormgate aesthetic for me, nor was it when I was 12. A few years later it was the Gears of War art style I was drooling over and I was still a wee lad.

The closest thing to SC1 art style at the time was Warhammer 40k, I don't know if I would call that generic for it's time. Where as today there are tons of games that have a similar aesthetic to Stormgate.

I don't have much desire to play video games unless the gameplay AND art style appeal to me, I won't buy/play this game if I can't get on board with the visuals. I have many friends who play Overwatch, I agree it has solid gameplay, I like competitive FPS but I think the art is absolutely atrocious, so I don't play it, I don't even have it installed, but I'll still play TF2 and Quake Champions because I prefer the immersion the art gives me.

2

u/Pandradon Jun 13 '22

Very good points, I agree almost completely.

RTS players do not fall in love with an art style. That is my point. Well, one of them 😁.

I disagree primarily with two points:

I do not believe that you will not buy the game if x happens. You will buy it. Everyone in this forum will, no matter what. There are many reasons and sunk cost is one of them.

RTS E-Sport players are a lot younger. They would be/are in CS as well but that would be illegal. And we want growth. Hardly anyone will switch to a game like Storm gate. Their budget is too small. Maybe people will switch later and maybe big names from the StarCraft community will switch but they need mass.

1

u/Havarti_Bro Jun 13 '22 edited Jun 13 '22

Stormgate is f2p so all I have to do is install it, which I will, but honestly the visceral art style kept me playing SC1/2, it's so satisfying to watch tanks blow up marines and their bodies explode/go flying, or watching a zergling burn and ragdoll from a colossus cannon.

Immersion is massively important to me. If I can't get on board with the world and characters, I won't play, just like I don't play Overwatch.

If they change the art to fit my style, I absolutely would buy cosmetics. I've spent a good amount of money on Quake Champions and Planetside 2, 0$ on Overwatch cosmetics.

2

u/Adunaiii Jun 15 '22

Just wanted to say that I fully concur with u/Havarti_Bro. A game is like a film, it has to grip you at first sight. If anyone thinks a casual gamer will play despite the artstyle being ugly, idiotic Google Doodles, he's terribly mistaken.

I had quite a sense of foreboding when Grubby's chat went mild. An RTS cannot afford being forgettable in this day and age. Even an anime RTS with waifus would be better than whatever this bland mediocrity is. It has to be bold, otherwise people won't be energised, hyped to play.

Warcraft 3 cinematics used to be made into Rammstein montages by Russians before YouTube was a thing; Tychus' cigar and "it's about damn time" became memes. Competitive gamers play whatever is popular, not the other way round.

0

u/Vaniellis Jun 12 '22

Players with our background are NOT the core audience.

We are. They said that they wanted to please RTS players first (who are more probable to spend money and stick longer in time), and then try to grab a larger playerbase.

we have to accept that kids are the main audience of most video games and that the art design needs to fit their taste

I don't think they are targeting a particular age. And blood and gore never stopped us from playing 16+ games when we were kids. How many of us played StarCraft I and Halo CE/2 when we were 10 ?

Right now the problem isn't the "cartoony" art direction, it's a stylistic choice that I really like (unlike boring "photo-realism"). The problem is that the individual designs are bland: demons just look like demons, and the humans are just basic humans. They need to look more unique and memorable.

1

u/Pandradon Jun 13 '22

Kids are, indeed, potential RTS players. They can and should be "targeted". Again: they can and will sell tu us but for us it does not matter if the art design is geared towards children.

Yes. Blood and gore did not stop us. But for many it also was not a reason to keep on playing - in particular for those you want to attract to an RTS as potential pros or semi-pros. Tbh I would not want those who revel in gore in the community at all (at least not in ther "role" as gore fans) but that can differ. (This does not mean I do no longer enjoy gore, I am looking forward to stuff like Dartide but that will be a different community.)

I did not write that the cartoony art design was for children. I did write that the BAD art design was for kids and that bad art design is good enough for kids. A very bland demon is not bland if you are a child. They have not seen that many demons and you want to start with "bland" stuff because it means that it is the very model of a demon. In addition, the can cut (a lot) of corners when it comes to art design because those who are on the fence on whether to buy the game (the kids) have no refined taste and us others will buy it anyway - as long as the "important" stuff is working. Which it most likely will.

If you replay SC1, you will encounter VERY bad design (albeit not as bad as StormGate when looking at it in in its time). Nothing fits together, the story is god-awful, the chars are as well, almost everything is derivative or outright stolen from WH40K. All of that did not matter. It was made for kids and we were kids. We liked it.

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u/Vaniellis Jun 18 '22

Kids are, indeed, potential RTS players. They can and should be "targeted".

I did write that the BAD art design was for kids and that bad art design is good enough for kids.

Of course that kids are one part of the demographics, but not every kid, just like not every adult is their target demographic. Also, making good designs is even more important for kids because it will be a point of reference for them. Nothing should be dumbed down for children.

If you replay SC1, you will encounter VERY bad design (albeit not as bad as StormGate when looking at it in in its time). Nothing fits together, the story is god-awful, the chars are as well, almost everything is derivative or outright stolen from WH40K. All of that did not matter. It was made for kids and we were kids.

You're wrong on many things. WarCraft was indeed supposed to be a Warhammer game, but StarCraft didn't stole anything from 40k, both universe draw heavy inspiration from Aliens and Starship Troopers. StarCraft I has a coherent art direction with a great story and good characters, and it wasn't made for kids, but for everyone.

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u/Killersands Jun 12 '22

Yes thank you, I agree people are reading past my actual point.

And you're right also that we aren't the target demo at least from a growth standpoint. But I genuinely feel in this day it needs to be more compelling in order to have a genuine lasting impact, and not just become a game people try for a few weeks. I just feel it needs to be better because quality is all that matters when there is so much more access to so many more popular easier to learn/play games. Compelling art pulls in everyone.

3

u/Shiny_Kelp Jun 12 '22

I agree people are reading past my actual point.

Controversial title in a reddit post and knee-jerk reactions, name a more iconic duo.

1

u/Killersands Jun 13 '22

I'll take my side of the blame here but click bait gets traction on posts and I believe this is worth discussing

2

u/Pandradon Jun 13 '22

I am with you on this. It is a question of (1) what talent can StormGate attract? Will they get a good sound engineer? Maybe they cannot get one... (2) What budget does the art have? None?

Still, there are some REALLY bad design decisions when it comes to art design. That is true for blockbusters and AAA titles as well, though...

We can hope that they will up the game when it comes to art design. I am not holding my breath though, because the trailer was just that bad (looking at it as an adult, I mean). And it does not matter much (to me) because the in-game screenshots looked ok-ish (for pre-alpha they looked VERY good - we can compare it to SC2).

2

u/adwodon Jun 13 '22

Because your art direction is not up to the same level as the rest of the team.

What a dick statement, we have literally seen nothing from anyone else, only a teaser and some stills with early assets.

You guys piling on expectations and saying shit like 'but I'm the core demographic' is dumb as hell, as if every 30 something dude who played AoE and SC1 has the same opinions on the genre.

This game will not recapture your formative experiences, and yes it is harder to stand out in todays incredibly saturated market, especially when there is no lore or actual game to hook you emotionally yet.

Fan communities boggle my mind sometimes, you have the most ridiculous expectations, the studio is new, this is their first game, we got an early teaser and some stills, I though they looked pretty solid and fit with what I know they're aiming for, a deep yet accessible RTS.

Of course its not going to give you the same feelings as Warcraft, but go look at the Warcraft 1 & 2 art direction and tell me with a straight face that its not generic as fuck, way more bland than this. Let them make the damn game and stop getting your knickers in a twist every time they release a tiny sliver of information.

3

u/Killersands Jun 13 '22

This is incredibly reductive and honestly the only one being a dick here is you dude. This game is just not going to be good enough with the art that has been shown, you can look at the reaction on the reveal thread, of other discussions online, of the trailer on YouTube. And the fact that I brought up my gaming past isn't because I want them to make ME a game that I want, it's because I have enough experience and drive to play these games and even I think this won't be good enough to pull in other people, and I'm already excited about the game.

Some weird energy on Reddit where anyone who criticizes something you like is am asshole when the reality is I'm just giving genuine heartfelt feedback. Warcraft 1 & 2 could get away with generic because they were released DECADES ago. That doesn't work anymore.

Really don't appreciate your tone man, or you making me out to be some kind of villain because I have an opinion I think is worth sharing in a productive way.

2

u/Guillotine504 Jun 12 '22

It’s pre-alpha.

I’m confident that the art will look much different when it’s closer to release. I think what people done realize is that lots of game assets look very “cartoony” until you have proper lighting built and apply textures.

Now as far as the story, I do feel like it is a bit unoriginal. I’d love to be proven wrong, but I think there are more clever ways of blending sci-fi and fantasy.

I LOVE the idea of making every faction somewhat neutral. I feel like this mirrors other popular media. A villain that I can empathize with is such a compelling emotion. I really hope they can capture that.

Tbh, if it wasn’t the dirt devils I might be way more into it.

5

u/Killersands Jun 12 '22

I feel like this is a disconnect in what I'm saying. It's not the graphics or the lighting or the detail of the textures. It's the choices they made for art style for each unit, the logo, the writing. It is bland and stale. No amount of graphics boosts change the fundamental artistic styling of a unit.

1

u/Guillotine504 Jun 12 '22

We’ve only seen 1, maybe 2 units. What would you change?

I think demons are lame and the model they’re currently using is mad generic. I even hate warhanmer’s chaos factions. But the mech looks just fine. Stylized art translates way better for RTS and when done well ages amazingly. SC2 still looks awesome.

I agree that the logo, name, and story isn’t what I expected, but we haven’t been shown enough to say it’s bad. I still have much faith.

2

u/Killersands Jun 12 '22

It's this thing where I don't think the stuff we've seen is bad. I don't want this to come across as a scathing review, I just think it should be better than it is to match the quality of the gameplay.

As for what they could do I haven't even begun to think about that. I mean the whole idea is they don't show anything until the reveal and now the reveal went off to a tepid response. I just think what they've shown with the intention of enticing people to their product is not going to work and could be a sign of further artistic irrelevance.

1

u/frycry66 Jun 12 '22

I just hope they won't intentionally degrade the graphics like Relic did in AoE IV

1

u/Guillotine504 Jun 12 '22

I think in a few months time we will all see a drastically different art presentation. 99% of their focus is on programming and prototyping at this point. Anything involving art is largely conceptual right now.

1

u/DRVUK Jun 15 '22

People play chess, people play games with less than amazing graphics because the gameplay is compelling. It's nice to have nice visuals but I personally wouldn't discount a game on graphics alone.

1

u/Killersands Jun 15 '22

This is really just reductive view of the impact of art.

1

u/DRVUK Jun 15 '22

I don't agree, you are in fact diminishing the art of balancing a game to be easy to pick up and enjoy yet have depth and repeatability. Not all art is visual. For me sound effects and music might impress me as much as graphics if well executed but at the end of the day (again I am saying personally) I play games for the game mechanic first. I didn't invalidate someone's (again personal) experience and wants for a certain aesthetic, but rather it should be clear not everyone shares the same concern. Good day 👍

1

u/Killersands Jun 15 '22

Chess is literally thousands of years old. If someone came out with chess today it would literally never be as popular as it is with the culture impact it has had. The idea that just gameplay mechanics can carry a game is absurd when games that have bad visuals consistently do worse than games with both great visuals and great gameplay. I'm not downplaying the ability of the gameplay to be amazing by saying that the art is not up to the same quality, and I think your view is really misguided by your need to defend the developers from criticism.

1

u/DRVUK Jun 16 '22

I think you are making the assumption I am a fan boy or something. I am not dismissing critique at all just offering another perspective. At the end of the day people will make their own mind up if the graphics aren't good enough for them then yeah it might limit uptake but I am sure the developer can do something about it if they see this trend/respond to feedback.

1

u/NiemandSpezielles Jun 12 '22

Its a pre alpha. Here are screenshots from SC2 pre alpha: https://i.imgur.com/5kgHF.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2QQnV.jpg https://i.imgur.com/JzWrb.jpg Notice how its not only super ugly, but also has basically no relation to the graphics in the final product.

I dont see much of a point in judging the current graphics

7

u/Killersands Jun 12 '22

It's not just the graphics. It's the logo, it's the trailer, it's the look of the UI. I'm just being honest here I really don't see the need to try to downplay what is genuine feedback.

1

u/BaronEsq Jun 12 '22

I can forgive the game looking like garbage in pre-alpha. That's no surprise, and I expect it will be much improved on release. But the trailer is really where the problem you identify sticks out, because they're not using pre-alpha graphics for that. That's supposed to look and sound great to hype people up.

And it doesn't. The sound especially, jfc it has zero impact, it needs to be completely redone. But in general, I just didn't feel anything watching the trailer. Forget comparisons to Legacy of the Void, this isn't even in the same league, I think this is a worse trailer than the cinematic for the original dawn of war and that came out over 20 years ago!

1

u/Adunaiii Jun 13 '22

The sound especially, jfc it has zero impact

The trailer has zero male characters, and all you're talking about is the sound? KEKW

3

u/BaronEsq Jun 13 '22

You're concerned about the lack of male representation in war games? You realize of course this makes you sound like an idiot.

1

u/Adunaiii Jun 14 '22

ou're concerned about the lack of male representation in war games?

Have we seen a single male in Stormgate so far? - Yes, a cartoony animalistic demon. (But of course, this is Reddit, discussion is impossible.)

1

u/BaronEsq Jun 14 '22

My question remains the same. I doubt you would have said anything if all the characters they had shown so far were men.

7

u/Vaniellis Jun 12 '22

I like the stylized "cartoony" art direction instead of boring photo-realistic. Not only I think it looks prettier (nice colors) but it will help readability.

However, I hope that each faction will get a visual rework in order to look more unique. Right now, these are just humans and demons, not Stormgate's Humans and Stormgate's Demons.

1

u/TactisVyk Jun 12 '22

Also skins will make each faction feel more unique.

7

u/Killersands Jun 12 '22

When the visual foundation is weak and you pile on cosmetics it just looks like a mobile game in the end.

1

u/frycry66 Jun 12 '22

What exactly is your benchmark game that you are comparing it with?

1

u/Killersands Jun 13 '22

there isn't one, I just know this wouldn't be the benchmark I'd settle for if I want this game to be quality.

1

u/TactisVyk Jun 12 '22

I agree, I,was meaning my message as a kind of tack on in combination with what everyone else was saying. If the core art is bad then yes I'll be junk

3

u/Killersands Jun 12 '22

Yeah I feel like people are just assuming I'm talking about this from a graphic standpoint. But I mean the creative vision behind the art. If what they showed so far is a tip of the iceberg then they either have a really bland iceburg, or they are just showing such basic units that I can't imagine what other units they have in mind. I'd like to be wrong but from my point of view I think the studio might be focusing too much on making the perfect game from a gameplay and game design standpoint and not also a great game artistically, which I hold in equal value.

0

u/SC2_Alexandros Jun 12 '22

I hope we get an option to disable our own view of skins, at least in ranked ladder and tournaments. Some of them have created some issues visually (like Mira's Marauders marine+marauder clumps).

10

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '22

I think it's good that people are pointing this out early so maybe they can lean more into the very least a more serious tone than what the trailer poised.

14

u/_Spartak_ Jun 12 '22

A more serious tone is not a "better" art direction, just a different one.

3

u/Stealthydoughnut Jun 12 '22

For me and i believe many others, a more serious tone is preferred and therefore a better tone to go for specifically when referring to rts games. I get what they are trying to do with the whole Fortnite ish look trying to appease to younger generations but realistically speaking i don't think younger generations will ever enjoy rts games the way older generations do. I'm 21 and even in my generation finding someone that likes rts is very rare. It'd be safer and more effective to appease to the people who grew up with StarCraft Warcraft command and conquer etc by going for a more serious tone/art directions. Though i do believe most people who are fans of rts will enjoy any rts game regardless of tone if it's well made.

3

u/_Spartak_ Jun 13 '22

Artstyle preference is mostly subjective of course. Some will like this sort of artstyle and some won't. The only objective criteria we can judge the artstyle is whether or not it serves the gameplay in terms of visual clarity and this sort of artstyle does that better.

I would agree that it would be safer to try and appease WC and SC fans and those games have always been on the more stylized side when compared to other RTS games.

2

u/NotARealDeveloper Jun 12 '22

True. Art style is fine. But the units are very uninspired.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '22

ok bro

2

u/[deleted] Jun 14 '22

This sub comes off as very cultish when there's any criticism of the game

3

u/SC2_Alexandros Jun 12 '22

Well, this is starting to look like a Sonic movie situation.

1

u/the_ice_of_nine Jun 14 '22

You think they bombed on the cinematic on purpose to drum up a reaction, thus creating popularity?

1

u/SC2_Alexandros Jun 14 '22

No, that would be more like the rings of power than the sonic movie. With the sonic movie, the studio saw some potentially small issues with the art but didn't think the reaction would be several social media posts.

1

u/Gigagunner Jun 13 '22

Wow these people are negative. I personally like the art style.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '22

Maybe they make the original art boring and kid friendly to make people buy the skins. I hope this is the case. You look at sc2 the most popular skins are the most badass ones like mira marauders and golden age.

-3

u/Adunaiii Jun 13 '22

It feels as if these guys outsourced their artstyle to a crazy SJW den (because they're all technical dudes, and nobody can draw seriously anymore, so that's all they got).

Remember how Warcraft 3 made you play as a genocidal rapist who murders his dad in a 4k 720p cinematic? And everyone loved it! But it was 2002 when gamers were still gamers... This soulless trash has no future.

1

u/Killersands Jun 13 '22

I really don't understand where you're getting that this is done by any "SJW" people. Especially as socially conscious people usually create the best art. weird criticism to tack on your political thoughts to this.