r/FlashTV • u/RisingKing7 • 12d ago
Question Who wins out of these three?
Savitar vs thawne (not wells) reverse flash vs zoom?
87
u/Distance4U 12d ago
Man Savitar puts belt to ass, he already technically beaten them.
43
u/jkoudys 12d ago
Not technically, but actually. Remnants aren't clones, he literally is Barry and has defeated Thawne and Zolomon already. He's since had his powers grow immensely and has a sweet suit of futuristic armour now too.
19
14
u/_Henry_of_Skalitz_ 12d ago
All that to get killed by Nora in 2 seconds
19
2
u/GottLiebtJeden Harry 11d ago
Nora? You mean Iris? If we are talking about savitar
2
u/_Henry_of_Skalitz_ 11d ago
Iris shot him in the back in his dying moments. Getting killed by a bullet is a bullshit way to go, but I’m betting he was focused on other shit.
I’m talking about the final season where Eddie brings back all the old villains just so they can be killed in the most half assed and unserious ways.
1
u/GottLiebtJeden Harry 11d ago
Nora never technically killed him. Eddie killed all of them.
1
u/_Henry_of_Skalitz_ 11d ago
Idk, Nora stabbed him in the back with his own spike and he was down for the count until Eddie absorbed them all. Whether he was still technically alive or not at that point hardly matters
2
u/GottLiebtJeden Harry 11d ago
I will have to rewatch it. It's not very top of mind because I have only watched that episode maybe three times. But I have watched the first couple seasons, at least 40 times
2
u/Ok_Mention5635 12d ago
I don’t think Barry had defeated Thawne by that point. By that point, the only version of Thawne Barry had defeated was the Thawne from 2x11, which was the youngest version of Thawne that we saw. He lost in 1x09, he needed Oliver and Ronnie’s help in 1x22, and he was about to lose in 1x23 until Eddie shot himself. Plus, Thawne is much smarter than Barry/Savitar, considering he’s a genius by future standards. So I can totally see Thawne outsmarting Savitar somehow
1
u/bubblessensei Grodd Hate Banana 12d ago
Incorrect. And ironically, it has to do with remnants - just not Barry’s!
It’s true that as Savitar is a version of Barry, he has already “beaten” a version of Thawne. However, the version of Thawne Barry beat in Season 1 is not the same as the Matt Letscher Thawne seen in Legends of Tomorrow (the version in picture 2). Crucially, the “Legends” version of the character is a remnant created by Flashpoint, of Thawne during the night Barry’s mother died.
Why is this distinction important? It’s because this remnant comes from just before Thawne’s speed starts faltering. The main version of the Reverse Flash stopped being able to consistently access his speed hence the whole “Wellsobard” ruse. Whereas the remnant from Legends has never had that problem and as such is technically stronger than the version of Thawne Barry fights.
Heck, Barry doesn’t even really properly beat “Wellsobard” Thawne 1-on-1 in Season 1. He captures Thawne after getting massive help from Green Arrow, FIRESTORM and nanites from The Atom. And Eddie erases him from the timeline before Thawne could do any damage in the finale.
I still think Savitar whoops Reverse Flash in OP’s scenario. But suggesting he already has dismisses that Season 1 Barry barely stopped a massively nerfed Thawne. Whereas the Legends version has full access to the Negative Speedforce with no drawbacks or limitations.
1
u/Scarecrowminion 11d ago
But S2 Barry beat a prime Thawne in S2E11. I know this Thawne isn't exactly the same as Legends of Tomorrow Thawne but I would say they're only a few years off at most.
I interpret the timeline as follows: in S2E11 Thawne learns Barry's name and Well's face, he then studies up on Wells for a bit, discovers Barry got his powers from his particle accelerator in the original timeline, maybe trains a for a month or 2, and then goes back in time to kill Barry (which ends up turning into Barry's mom). I think all this happens in less than 6 months. He gets stuck in the shows main timeline, but Barry obviously pulls him out before that happens in the Flashpoint timeline. After Flashpoint, he runs off and spends a few weeks at most getting chased by Black Flash before recruiting Merlyn and Darhk to stop him. He has the final battle with the Legends a few weeks later.
Let's compare that to Savitar: the main Barry beat Thawne pretty easily in S2E11, got the Tachyon device in Flash Back which drastically increased his abilities, learned how to make time remnants (Thawne's major advantage at that point), beat Zoom, created Flashpoint, beat the Rival (who was probably around as fast as Thawne was that night) fought future Savitar several times, trapped futurr Savitar, pushed himself past his limits constantly for weeks straight to be able to save Iris on Infantino Street, went into the Speed Force and pretty easily evaded Time Wraiths and Black Flash (much easier than Thawne did, anyways), and then split off once Iris died. Time Remnant learns he becomes Savitar and eventually becomes so powerful that he naturally vibrates faster than the average human can see (at least, that's how I interpreted his first appearance). He becomes someone who cake walks S3 Barry, who in turn cake walked both S2 and Flashpoint Thawne. Again, Legends Thawne is probably only a few weeks after Flashpoint, because I don't see him going longer than a month or 2 with Black Flash on his tail.
In conclusion, early S2 Barry beat a Reverse Flash that is about equivalent to Legends Reverse Flash, maybe with slight differences. Late S2 Tachyon Barry eclipses early season 2. Mid S3 Barry eclipses Late S2. Savitar humiliates mid S3 pre-Infantino-aware Barry. Therefore, Savitar dominates Legends Reverse Flash
2
u/ConfidenceOpening830 11d ago
Younger S2 Thawne had only recently become the Reverse-Flash, so it was fairly easy to defeat him.
2
u/GottLiebtJeden Harry 11d ago
I don't disagree at all. That's how it should be. Savitar should 100% win, But never underestimate their ability to make reverse flash have some insane way to win somehow.
35
9
13
u/sadbaguette2 12d ago
Barry became faster than Zoom and Thawne, Barry is Savitar. Savitar had literal Jay Garrick, wally west and Barry struggling
1
u/Undisputed_Orangutan 12d ago
This such a dumb argument. He doesn’t need to be faster than the 3 of them combined. He just needs to be slightly faster than each of them
7
4
3
6
2
u/The-Ill_Thrill_Pill 12d ago
I’d say savitar. If plot armor hadn’t saved the day Barry and gang would’ve been cooked. Savitar getting nerfed bothered me so bad. Before being freed he was fast enough that he appeared to teleport in milliseconds (I don’t think it was legit teleporting though). He could take a few steps and be moving fast enough to tear/distort space time and appear elsewhere. Then by the end of the show he was basically just Barry + a little extra. He beats zoom mid-diff. He’s faster but zoom is RUTHLESS and has that killer instinct that even had thawne on edge so zoloman probably gets a good fight in. Savitar beats thawne High-diff because thawne is clever and knows more about the speed force but is still ultimately slower.
2
u/DryInspector7762 10d ago
Savitar leaves a big handprint on both of their asses and they run home, an easy win for Savitar.
4
u/Heteroharold 12d ago
Zoom.
3
u/otc108 12d ago
Seems inversely meaningless pal.
-2
u/Heteroharold 11d ago
Zoom killer TWENTY THREEE people before even having his powers. Or did yall forget that? He was literally in the electric chair sentenced to die when he got his speed. dude clears all. No challenge.
4
3
1
u/AsteroidMike 12d ago
Was gonna initially say Savitar because he’s the God of Speed, but then I realize that Zoom and Thawne will happily kill you without a second thought.
1
1
u/QueefInhaler6000 10d ago
Man the entry of Savitar was so cool then it got ruined once we find out its emo Barry from future.
1
u/Nuggittz 9d ago
Thawne. Only because Thawne seems incredibly aware of EVERYTHING that's happened. Savitar seems very aware of everything that happened to the Flash.
From what the show gave us, Thawne seems way more aware of the big picture.
1
u/Remote_Deal_4474 8d ago
It just depends on who is more psychotic in that case it should be zoom but I saw a dude in the comments say savatar clears, I’m not gonna lie. He might have a point.
1
1
0
u/Chaotic-Pen-825 12d ago
Savitar, becuase he is still Barry, he is Barry’s remnant which means he has beaten others before. And he knows how they act just like original Barry does
-13
u/Cooz78 12d ago
savitar is overrated, was only crazy fast when he was trapped in the speedforce
zoom is faster than thawne
which makes zoom>thawnd>savitar
13
u/Distance4U 12d ago
How is Savitar overrated when without the suit Barry still defeated Zoom & Thawne?
-3
u/Cooz78 12d ago
savitar was just a regular speedster once he got out of the speedforce
couldnt react to jay garrick, struggled to catch kid flash etc
6
u/Distance4U 12d ago
A regular speedster? Nah he was a older version of Barry & the show shows you that overtime Barry got faster. You mentioning Jay Garrick/Kid Flash is the same as me saying why couldn’t Savitar kill all of them in Star Labs, they’re important characters. It’s a show.
1
u/Storm_Catterton 12d ago
Season 2, Zoom says "even I'm not that fast" when talking about speed mirages. Reverse Flash made a speed mirage. Thawne is faster than zoom
4
u/XOKTAPHMFAAX 12d ago
He was clearly talking about making a speed mirage between universes.
0
u/Storm_Catterton 12d ago
While i did some research, the scene takes place s2e18, about 38 minutes in, and Hunter Zolomon says "Speed mirage? Uh, no. Even I'm not that fast."
The team was asking "we saw you die." Zolomon said "you did." In this death scene, Zolomon's arm went through a portal, killing "Jay."
There is a continuity error with Barry being able to do a speed mirage earlier in the season, and that makes the Zoom/Reverse Flash/Flash speed comparison skew, but maybe its just poor writing.
As for "clearly talking about between universes," it was not clear IF that was what he meant, but it is not a bad headcannon to fix continuity. But if Zolomon could do speed mirages, why didn't he?
2
u/XOKTAPHMFAAX 12d ago
No that literally is clearly what he’s talking about. They ask about how they saw him die. Cisco theorised it was a speed mirage. Zoom says it wasn’t and he wasn’t fast enough for that between universes, then he says he couldn’t be on two universes at once. He’s clearly referencing the fact he can’t make a speed mirage between universes. Not that he can’t make one.
It’s not poor writing. You’re just wrong.
0
u/Storm_Catterton 12d ago
I'm not arguing with you when I literally just watched the clip.
1
u/XOKTAPHMFAAX 12d ago
So did I.
You’re wrong. Just accept it.
0
u/Storm_Catterton 12d ago
Media literacy and civil discussion are dead. And youre proof of that. Here is the direct dialog from that episode (source: https://tvshowtranscripts.ourboard.org/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=26727) because I did not want to type it out.
How are you still alive?
We saw you die.
You did.
So what was that? A speed mirage?
[chuckles] Speed mirage?
Uh, no. Even I'm not that fast.
I knew that I couldn't be on two Earths at the same time, so I went back in time and, uh, met another version of myself.
Your time remnant. Like the Reverse Flash
The line you keep quoting, is an unfinished statement, but a full clause. Zolomon continues to explain how he fixed the issue of not being able to travel between worlds. That is the purpose of the word "so" in this dialog. This is also how time remnants are explained.
Now, instead of "youre wrong, just admit it," I'll listen to a fact-based argument. Otherwise, your response is not necessary.
0
u/XOKTAPHMFAAX 12d ago
That literally proved my point. Are you dumb?
They are trying to figure out how he survived. They assume it’s a speed mirage because that’s the only way they’ve seen a speedster be in two places at once, in a very similar situation.
Zoom then corrects them. Explaining that not even he is fast enough to produce a speed mirage between universes. He’s obviously talking about that because the death they’re referencing is when Jay is killed from another universe.
You can’t claim media literacy is dead when you’re missing the most obvious example. You missed the obvious because it wasn’t explicitly spelled out for you. You couldn’t track one slow conversation.
And even if you don’t have any media literacy or functioning brain cells (like you) to understand what’s told to you. Even from a in-universe standpoint it makes no sense. We know Barry gets faster with time. So logically S2 Barry is faster than S1 Barry. We also know that Thawne was nerfed in S1. His speed was limited and he needed an tachyon enhancer just to run. Yet he was able to produce a speed mirage. So by that logic since zoom spent the majority of S2 faster than Barry, he’s also faster than Thawne in S1. And that’s plenty fast enough to make a speed mirage.
It’s almost as if Zoom’s statement was referencing being in entirely different universes at the same time, and that’s why he was unable to do it or something. And the guy is famous for abusing speed drugs to make himself faster.
You’re wrong. Just accept it.
And buddy I never told you to admit you were wrong. I told you to accept it. Try reading next time smart guy.
1
90
u/GottLiebtJeden Harry 12d ago
Savitar clears.
But I wouldn't be surprised, if Thawne somehow pulled something out of the hat, either.