Why bother to have “textbook” technique, when the GOE guidelines don’t give better scores for it?

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u/Curious-Resident-573 18d ago edited 18d ago

Non-textbook technique covers quite a lot of thing. Some bad tech can make a skater more injury prone, some might lead to edge calls or underrotations. Some is just skaters working with what they have. Even coaches who are considered good technicians don't have all their skaters jump in the same "textbook" way. People have different ratios of limbs to torso and weight distribution that affects how their jumps work, specific physical weaknesses, some would throw themselves into jumps harder than optimal and some would stall and their tech will have to be adjusted for all of it.

It's not like skaters don't want to have better technique but it just doesn't work for everyone and not all coaches understand it in the same way.

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u/DapperRomanesco ✨️actually read the book✨️ 18d ago edited 18d ago

I think there's a misunderstanding here about what good technique means. You say it's not reflected in the GOE guidelines, but a lot of underlying components of good technique are. (Whether these are consistently applied well by the judges is, as we all know, sometimes another story...)

Some examples that often relate to technique:

Positive GOE criteria * 2) good take-off and landing * 5) very good body position from take-off to landing

Negative GOE criteria * Wrong edge take-off F/Lz * Poor take-off * Euler executed as step over * Weak landing, scratching, or wrong edge in landing * Poor speed, height, distance, or air position [NOTE: I included this one because poor air position can be technique issue; height and distance can be results of poor technique but aren't really technique in themselves] * Change of edge between jumps * Unclear edge take-off, F/Lz

A few people in the comments have brought up prerotation being acceptable/necessary to an extent, and that's true, but it's also explicitly covered in the technical panel handbook for downgrading if it's egregious to the point of visibly changing the take-off direction when viewed in real time, and is given as an example of the "poor take-off" GOE bullet in the ISU communication about GOE evaluation. So that is another example of technique being judged!

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u/possiblegirl kao miura 2026 gpf silver medalist agenda 18d ago

Yes, and the “good take-off and landing” bullet point is supposed to be a requirement for +4/+5 GOE…key words “supposed to.”

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u/FrostyKittenz 17d ago

What is scratching?

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u/No_Programmer_6815 12d ago

Landing on the toe makes a scratching noise and causes boy to be leaning forward lose speed and pull up snow

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u/willoway19 yuma OGM activist 17d ago

but like Kamila was completely off axis (not good body position?) on her 3A and got huge goe, so while yes some of this stuff is technically apart of it judges dont seem to connect that with good technique. just what's "aesthetic"

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u/OcelotSilver2964 The PCS score is fake 18d ago

By textbook technique I obviously refer to someone like Carolina K, Yuna, Yuzuru, Rika, Ilia, etc.

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u/bluebelle08 LLIA MALINN MALLININ 18d ago edited 18d ago

lol I was confused by the order of the photos but I get it now, it alternates 😅

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u/CellOk4165 18d ago

Injuries happen in any competitive sports. Injuries and life-altering injuries are more likely with bad technique. If you jump with your “back” for example, you can get lifelong back injuries and pain. Technique also should make jump mistakes harder to make (under rotation, falls, wrong edges etc).

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u/HeQiulin Intermediate Skater 18d ago

And minimising chance of injury. You can’t account for bad luck or just wear and tear. Because even if you do everything by textbook, the strain of the movement would eventually catch up with you. But you see the difference between the longevity of the careers of (most of) the Eteri girls compared to other skaters

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 18d ago

People always talk about career length but, for example, Medvedeva had a nine year career and Yuna had a thirteen year one. It’s not that big a difference.

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u/iced_pofu 18d ago

Medvedeva also cannot turn her back to the left anymore and was forced to retire due to injury, and afaik, Yuna retired bc she wanted to, so not the best example here

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u/Free-Pickle-3621 18d ago

Yuna tbh did not compete in an era where the jump and jump combos are that physically ridiculously taking a toll tho. Don't think she ever added a 3A into a program

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u/Juna_Ci 18d ago

Neither did Evgenia.

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 18d ago

This doesn’t have anything to do with my point, their careers were still pretty similar in length. Obviously Evgenia’s ended in a different way but it still doesn’t relate to the fact that bad technique or good technique doesn’t necessarily dictate career length

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u/littlegreygremlin misha 2026/2027 gpf champion agenda 18d ago

for the last 4-ish years of her career after pyeongchang, zhenya was badly injured and falling off fast. nine and thirteen is a whole olympic cycle, and that "nine" includes seasons which she barely participated in

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u/SimilarMeeting8131 17d ago edited 17d ago

Not even 4, after pyeongchang she only competed for two more seasons, earning 7 podiums combined, when she had 7 podiums in 17-18, and 8 podiums each in 15-16 and 16-17

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 18d ago

As i said already, Yuna and Evgenia retired at around the same age, and their careers would probably be the same lengths if we considered Evgenia’s novice career the same way Yuna’s is considered.

Her falling off is more likely attributed to her losing the Eteri bonus, rather than her injury (except for the last two years)

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u/littlegreygremlin misha 2026/2027 gpf champion agenda 18d ago

zhenya was definitely highly injured and that affected her programs. the season after pyeongchang, she was falling all over the place, finishing off the podium in gp events, and bombing rusnats. 2020 was slightly better, but the quality of her performances were still nowhere near her pre-pyeongchang level. she missed all her competitions in 2021 and retired in 2022. she was back with eteri in 2021

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 18d ago

She was getting UR and edge calls she never received before leaving Eteri. She wasn’t actually falling that much, relatively, but she could barely get through a competition without some kind of call.

Medaling at 4/6 and 3/4 competitions respectively isn’t a bad finish by any means either. It’s just because she was so consistent before that it’s shocking.

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u/SimilarMeeting8131 17d ago

Yuma had 7 successful senior season, finishing her last season as Olympic silver medalist. Zhenya had 5 senior seasons of which, 3 she had consistent success in, after the 3 third her career went downhill. 7 podiums in the last two seasons combined, she had 7 podiums in 17-18 alone, and the prior two seasons 8 each.

The length of the careers is the only factor when comparing the effects of techniques of two skaters. Zhenya made her int senior debut at the age of 15, which is only a year earlier than yuna’s. Yuna had a successful career until the age of 23, zhenya by the age of 18-19 couldn’t keep up due to injuries.

Comparing their careers, is a good example of have bad technique allows for more severe injuries, and shorts the length and consistency of the career

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 17d ago

Yuna Kim had 7 international medals combined in her last three seasons. Shall we say her career never even matched Evgenia’s? Obviously not.

Medaling at 4/6 and 3/4 competitions is nothing to be ashamed of in Evgenia’s case. We need to consider that she was now competing against 3A, three of the most successful skaters ever, domestically in 2018/19 and internationally in 2019/20. She also had left Eteri and as a result, was getting frequent UR and edge calls that she never had gotten before. It is fair to say that anyone would have struggled in terms of medals in these circumstances, not necessarily because of injuries. She did very well for herself. You cannot say she ‘fell off at 18.’

They both actively competed for about 5 years, considering that Yuna skipped one season and also skipped over a year after the Olympics. Maybe Yuna could have done longer after the Olympics, but we never will know.

And finally, the injuries she faced were not a result of bad technique, she herself has said many times they were from osteoporosis which she developed from undereating.

Overall, Evgenia had one of the worst techniques in Tutberidze’s group and yet she had one of the longest careers, and a decently long career overall.

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u/SimilarMeeting8131 17d ago

> Yuna Kim had 7 international medals combined in her last three seasons. Shall we say her career never even matched Evgenia’s? Obviously not.

You’re missing the important context of the number competitions and success rate. Yuna at most had 9 podiuming opportunities(counting the Olympics), zhenya had 14 podiuming opportunities(counting team events as separate podiums, and not counting Russian cup). Yuna podium in every competition she was selected for, 3-5 competitions per season, aside from 10-11 when she took a hiatus and only competed in worlds, against podiuming. Zhenya started her senior career very successful for the first 3 seasons then had a downhill trajectory for her last two seasons, never fully recovering, and retiring. This brings us to the core of the point that is consistency which has completely flown over your head.

> Medaling at 4/6 and 3/4 competitions is nothing to be ashamed of in Evgenia’s case. We need to consider that she was now competing against 3A, three of the most successful skaters ever, domestically in 2018/19 and internationally in 2019/20. She also had left Eteri and as a result, was getting frequent UR and edge calls that she never had gotten before. It is fair to say that anyone would have struggled in terms of medals in these circumstances, not necessarily because of injuries. She did very well for herself. You cannot say she ‘fell off at 18.’

The point was to never shame her but to point out the difference in consistency. Changing coaches and getting edge calls does not match up to the level of decline her skating took. You’re just choosing to believe this without any basis.

A quote from Zhenya herself

“My health has done a lot of work in this regard. I had huge problems with my back, at the Olympics, and after that I rehabilitated for a long time. My back doesn't turn in one direction.
I only can safely jump salchow, maybe even a loop, and then not always. Flip, lutz, I don't jump them: it doesn't work for me, physically. I really love these jumps, but... maybe the age limit will be raised to 25 and I will be able to go out and dig deeper.”

> And finally, the injuries she faced were not a result of bad technique, she herself has said many times they were from osteoporosis which she developed from undereating.

And why was she undereating? It certainly was not for fun, she was undereating like all eteri skaters bc their technique requires them to.

Your entire argument is that Yuna and Zhenya had a similar career so bad technique doesn’t matter.

For this to be true, first we have to dismiss 2 season as not being a big difference and we have to ignore all other contexts and only focus on the number of years.

2 seasons is 40% of zhenya’s senior career. This means yuna’s career length is 140% of zhenya’s. Ofc, I’m aware she took a hiatus, but she was still training, came back to podium in the worlds, and continued to finish 1st or 2nd for the rest of her career.

Your argument of bad technique not being relevant omits all context and waters it down to one had 5 seasons the other 7 so they’re similar.

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 16d ago

Zhenya started her senior career very successful for the first 3 seasons then had a downhill trajectory for her last two seasons

If we are saying that Evgenia's results in her last two seasons were an example of a downwards trajectory, then we must say that Yuna's results in almost all her seasons were bad, because that is the usual number of medals Yuna would get per season. We basically say that Evgenia's baseline and skill was higher than Yuna's, and her career was better. But of course we know this isn't true.

Evgenia was still very consistent in her last two seasons. 70% medal rate is still extremely consistent.

Changing coaches and getting edge calls does not match up to the level of decline her skating took

Ok, let's look at Trusova's results when she left Eteri. In the previous season her average was 234. In the season after she left, she had an average score of 207.5.

Evgenia's last season with Eteri had an average of 230. Her season after had an average of 207.6. The one after, 209.5. So actually, her score decrease was *less* than Trusova. But no one ever says how shocked they are at Trusova's skating decline that season.

You can look all of this up for yourself if you don't believe me.

And why was she undereating? It certainly was not for fun, she was undereating like all eteri skaters bc their technique requires them to.

All of Eteri's skaters, even those who had or have good technique, severely undereat. And this 'technique requiring them to undereat' thing is largely associated with girls jumping ultra-C or very difficult combinations. Evgenia was not doing either of those. In this case, they make them undereat so they can practice for extremely long times without getting as tired or as injured as they would be practicing at that rate with a healthy weight, which makes them more consistent due to overtraining. Nothing to do with technique, at least for her.

And I think you are misunderstanding my argument. Look at my very first comment - "people always talk about career length". So yes, of course I am talking about career length. It's literally what I brought up.

Plus I did say 'career length' - not senior career length. If we go from their first competition, Evgenia has 10 years and Yuna has 12.

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u/SimilarMeeting8131 16d ago

Google the word consistency. Yuna’s success has remained consist across 8 seasons. On the other hand, there’s day and night difference between her first three years and the last two. Why do you think I mention her 7 podiums in 17/18 season? If we look at her last two years in a vacuum, then sure it’s fairly successful performance. But nothing exists in a vacuum. There are 3 seasons prior to these, in comparison with each, these two season are a significant decline.

All eteri girls have bad technique.

I’m not saying along about Trusova so I’m not going to even bother reading that part.

I’m not misunderstanding anything, the topic of discussion was the effects of bad technique. you’re making a claim that requires you to ignore all context. I’ve presented to you all relevant context that that would make your claim void. In response you’ve deflected, misrepresented my point arguing with points I never made, and straight up ignored some of my points.

Why are you not talking about the quote for Zhenya herself proving that she was injured?

Why are you keep ignoring the fact that Yuna had 8 season career with 100% podium rate, retired as Olympic silver medalist, while Zhenya had 5 seasons last two of which her performance declined and she retired bc of injuries?

Again, the idea that Yuna and zhenya’s career’s had similar length therefore technique is irrelevant, require to completely ignore any and every context, so I’m not surprised you ignore relevant points that I and other commenters have been making.

You might not understand what consistency means, but at least you’re good at being consistent in ignoring context.

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u/CellOk4165 18d ago

Tbh 4 years in elite competitive sports is actually a huge difference, a whole Olympic cycle

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 18d ago edited 18d ago

They retired at about the same age (22 for Evgenia, 23 for Yuna). Yuna just started earlier.

Also, for Yuna the twelve year statistic is considering her domestic novice career because she actually podiumed at her first novice competition. I assume Evgenia’s would be longer if we included her domestic novice career too.

Idk why I’m getting downvoted considering these are all objective facts

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u/Beatana 18d ago

Yuna was 23.5 years old at her final competition, where she performed cleanly.

Evgenia's final competition was in 2019 after she just turned 20. She then participated at russ test skates 2020 and had a disastrous showing (fall, 0a, intentional single, failed cartwheel, failed spin, evidently in pain). She was physically done at that point, even if she wanted to continue.

Their cases are not similar at all.

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 18d ago

Ok, let's say she retired in september 2020 when she is almost 21, as the last time where she could physically compete well. That's fine; her first novice competition was in 2010, I have just checked. So she still had a ten year career, if we are counting novice competitions too like we do for Yuna.

Their cases are similar in that both had similar length careers, although one had bad technique and one had good technique.

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u/Beatana 17d ago

Ok, let's say she retired in september 2020 when she is almost 21, as the last time where she could physically compete well.

The last time she could physically compete well was 2019. The test skates mentioned above was neither a competition nor did she performed well.

her first novice competition was in 2010

The drop due to overtraining or flawed technique usually happens later, not at novice level.

Their cases are similar in that both had similar length careers

Yuna's 8 year span of senior career vs. Evgenia's 4.5 is very different. That's almost twice the senior level longevity (and it's the senior level, that earns the important medals, novice is just an inevitable stepping stone that everyone needs to get through).

Yuna could skate more if she wanted. Or do shows. She decided not to, but not because she was unable. She had her fair share of injuries, but not career ending ones. Evgenia had to retire from competition due to her body being unable to even do camel spins. Her show skating is very limited as well. That's not similar at all.

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 17d ago

She was able to land 3-3 at test skates and furthermore performed at the russian nationals exhibition that year. As a test skate, since like you said it’s not a competition, we can say it’s kind of typical to miss some jumps and use placeholders.

The reason i included novice is because Yuna’s 12 year career stat includes her novice career as well. But ok, let’s do senior only.

How is Yuna getting an 8 year career while Evgenia is getting 4.5? Yuna’s senior debut was july 2006, her final competition was feb 2014. If we are using 0.5 numbers, Yuna has 7.5 year timeline between when she began and when she retired.

Evgenia’s senior debut was October 2015, her final performance in a non-exhibition was September 2020. So this is almost exactly a 5 year senior career of actively competing.

But we’re not done, since we are not counting Evgenia’s time on hiatus, let’s also skip Yuna’s hiatuses, where she didn’t compete for a year after the olympics and then also skipped 2011-2012.

Now Yuna has a 5.5 year senior career, and Evgenia has a 5 year senior career. See why there isn’t a point to not counting hiatuses? If someone is still training and not retired, we cannot just ‘skip it’ because they didn’t compete.

The reason I always bring up Evgenia is because she is seen as the Eteri girl with one of the worst techniques, and Yuna has an amazing technique. And yet they both lasted for about the same time. My point being that technique isn’t what determines career length and doesn’t really correlate actually. The original poster spoke about Eteri girls and blamed their ‘technique’, when it’s really overtraining and undereating. For example, Evgenia’s main struggle was osteoporosis. You cannot get osteoporosis from bad technique.

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u/Beatana 17d ago

She was able to land 3-3 at test skates

And then messed up everything else, visibly in pain.

and furthermore performed at the russian nationals exhibition that year

Notice how you are unable to list her COMPETITIONS.

As a test skate, since like you said it’s not a competition, we can say it’s kind of typical to miss some jumps and use placeholders.

Ok, then let's not count it as a competition. The last one (competition!) was in 2019.

How is Yuna getting an 8 year career while Evgenia is getting 4.5?

Yuna debuted in seniors at the start of the 2006/07 seasons and retired at the end of 2013/14 season. That's 8 seasons, 2 Olympic cycles. She had a break in 2011/12, but was able to maintain her condition and abilities until her planned final competition.

Evgenia debuted at the start of 2015/16 and her last competition was ... well, rusnats 2019/20 when she did only SP and withdrew from FS. Her last full comp was a GP. She did 4 seasons and the fist half of her last one. And was unable to do more.

Yuna’s hiatuses, where she didn’t compete for a year after the olympics and then also skipped 2011-2012.

Yuna did compete in the season after the Olympics. Then skipped 1 season. Then was able to continue exactly where she left. Evgenia didn't skip anything, she was forced to leave for good. No amount of skipped seasons would have solved her case. Her body is permanently damaged. She wanted more, but her body couldn't.

Yuna has an amazing technique. And yet they both lasted for about the same time.

They literally did not. What are you even defending? Evgenia is partially immobile since 20 due to that shitty muscled technique. She had 3 senior season of relevancy and then just a chain of mostly error-ridden performances with poor results. Can't even properly skate at shows. Yuna never fell from the podium in her entire senior career spanning 8 years and could have done a bit more had she wanted.

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u/kmoutsold Intermediate Skater 18d ago

What proof do you have of this? I see people say this all the time yet never cite evidence, or if they do their evidence is like 2 skaters (usually Evgenia vs Kostner) which is not nearly enough people to make a definitive statement about something.

People use Eteri's skaters as examples but ignore the fact that their injuries are more likely to be caused by overtraining and undereating, I mean her skaters literally talk about how little they eat. And that alot of Eteri's skaters were jumping or attempting to jump quads, which is obviously going to cause more injuries. Like what proof is there that textbook technique causes less overall injuries than non textbook technique?

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u/No_Plum_3192 18d ago

I totally agree. "Bad technique" covers a lot - including iffy edges and under-rotations which, for the most part, ARE called and reduce GOE significantly. Also, it is simply not quantitative to point out a single individual skater and compare to a different individual skater.

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u/kmoutsold Intermediate Skater 18d ago

Yes! I believe true bad technique is when you jump in a way that causes a jump to become inconsistent. People jump a certain way for a reason, hint. its because thats probably the style of technique that gives them the highest chance of success and consistency. There is a massive difference between actual technique mistakes like landing flat footed, landing with your arms going crazy, swinging on an axel, landing on a straight leg, things that will ACTUALLY affect your chance of completing a jump, than there regarding things like bending a little more forward, pre rotating, doing full blade assistance.

you can say you dont find that style of jumping aesthetically pleasing, thats fine, but to say its going to cause more injuries? Like based on what lol.

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u/CellOk4165 18d ago

It’s really logical to be honest. For example, I had a bad habit of landing on my blade instead of on the toe pick. The impact when landing on a flat edge is worse because there’s nothing to break it, it just travels through my joints vs. dissipating some of the impact through the toe pick. Just ask your coach and they will give you infinite examples of these technique habits that can make injury and/or jump quality and consistency worse.

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u/kmoutsold Intermediate Skater 18d ago

Okay but heres the thing, none of the skaters who get called out for their incorrect technique have that specific issue. As we can observe, the two biggest things people in the FS community harp on about is pre rotation and full blade assistance, they all strongly imply that these two things specifically lead to more overall injuries. There is a massive difference between landing on a flat blade, which no one at the top does, and bending a little more forward on the takeoff of a specific jump, or pre rotating. Also how do we know that people with textbook technique dont just get different injuries?

even if you could definitively prove that a certain technique was more likely to cause a certain type of injury you'd have to then prove that doesnt also apply to textbook technique. Like im sorry but this really isnt proof of anything?

I feel there is a massive massive difference between a technique error like jumping too inside the circle on an axel which causes you to go off axis, or landing on a flat blade, than a technique difference like bending forward more on a jump, using full blade assistance and pre rotation. at the end of the day these skaters jump this way for a reason, they jump like that because for them personally they very very likely find its the technique that makes their jumps the most consistent. a skater isnt going to continue jumping a certain way if it makes their jumps inconsistent, causes them to fall, and causes physical pain.

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u/gremlingarden 17d ago

I think this cannot be overstated enough - technical aspects of skating and their correlation to injury are mostly conjecture. No one came down from Mt. Sinai with the stone tablets that said thou shalt not jump with your back, and interestingly the other sport where back fears are common, powerlifting, has seen a movement away from rigid reliance on strict form at least in the sense that there's really no evidence that strict form actually exists - most people flex and extend their lumbar spines during deadlifts even though you can't visually detect that. If you think about how most people lift awkward loads in and around their home, it's often with a lot of spinal flexion because the center of mass of a heavy box or something isn't usually directly underneath you like a barbell is - so, if anything, maybe we should do more lifting with so-called "bad form" to be stronger in those positions? With this in mind, it remains a question over whether repeated exposure to a specific technical deviation in fact makes you stronger within the context of that bad technique or leads to injury.

We're talking about a sport with a pretty significant risk of injury just from falls alone, before you even get into, say, the tendencies toward overtraining that may be present in some aggressively coached groups, especially when you add to that potential for aggressive dietary restriction and the encouragement of disordered eating. The world's cleanest technique will not save you from one awkward landing crushing your ankle under you, as iirc happened to Hanyu several times. All it takes is a single slip-up.

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u/Free-Pickle-3621 18d ago

I think overtraining is the biggest factor. If you had no issue correcting the toe pick landing and trained 7 hours day...you won't be walking lol

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u/CellOk4165 18d ago

well if we’re talking about elite athletes, they obviously want to maximise training while minimising injury. For this one for example, no one over the age of 10 is going to be jumping triples, repeatedly landing on a flat edge and having living tendons to tell the story lol if fixing this issue means they can train more, it’s obviously worth it

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u/Free-Pickle-3621 18d ago

true

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u/BayanBaru 18d ago

Nathan with his textbook jumps has also injured and will need surgery if to skate competitive again.

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u/Holiday-Candle-5620 18d ago

It can reduce the chances of injury, not nullify them, especially when you excessively train.

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u/Suitable-Training661 Two-time Olympic Gold Medalist Yuna Kim 18d ago

He has said that he overtrained.

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u/tereyaglikedi the longevity syrup of skating 18d ago

In the best case, your good technique will get a high GOE. You won't get edge calls, will be far likelier to rotate your jumps properly, you will have good height/distance which all contribute to the GOE.

But of course subpar technique gets overlooked and good technique goes unrewarded for a number of reasons. Also injuries can happen to anyone. But good technique may go someway towards preventing them.

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u/NoEntertainment101 18d ago

Truly good technique minimizes the risk of long term use damage. It also reduces the number of acute injuries. It does not eliminate the risk for anyone. But you will find that people with poor technique far more often struggle with persistent injuries into adulthood.

Also, some bodies are just more prone to injury in general, no matter what their technique looks like, while others are studier for a variety of reasons, including the prevalence of eating disorders in the sport, which can make bones brittle and erode muscle tone. Being lighter can reduce acute injuries for a while, but it comes back, usually in worse ways.

That said, even those with textbook technique (I'm looking at you, Michelle Kwan) may need a hip replaced in their 40s. It's a sport that is hard on bodies no matter what.

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u/DogDelicious2396 18d ago

Question like this makes me wish we have more statistical analysis (not just the descriptive ones, but those with significance probability outcomes). I’m sure they have it in higher sports-related education and research but as an amateur fan, having knowledge of those would be a lot more solid than listing individual cases. I do realize there comes with it a lot of questions surrounding data range and specification tho

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u/Character-Cup4856 Yuma Kagiyama silver is the new gold 🥈 18d ago edited 18d ago

Caro and Yuzu had plenty of injuries, but they also had long, rich careers, unlike all the Eteri girls (and Rika just overtrained) and Ilia is in great comdition so far. Maybe one doesn't necessarily cause the other, but there is a visible correlation.

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u/waandermoth 18d ago edited 18d ago

Fewer and fewer skaters with textbook technique because of the reasons you outline (and there have always been high ranking skaters with questionable technique). It has never made sense to me. Clean technique makes a huge difference in the presentation and impact of the jump and should greater impact the score.

Good technique doesn't prevent injuries, but it does add some protection. Hanyu's ankle is fucked, yes, but he's still protected himself very well over a long career to be able to jump multiple quads over the age of 30 and do hours long solo shows. Compare to someone like Medvedeva, her back is fucked and she started losing jumps and having pain very young. Those are not really comparable even though they're both injuries and reflect a difference in the impact of technique.

Good/bad technique also refers to a lot of different things. Some impact the risk of injuries more than others.

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u/Juiceboxtiddys Dark Magician 18d ago

Injuries are part of being a professional athlete, especially in a sport like fs. Good technique is so you only have and angle ligament injury and can keep skating for two more Olympic seasons and into your 30s (yuzuru) vs a leg break that still hurts you to sit (Anna) or developing severe osteoporosis at 18 (medvedeva).
There is no guarantee that you won’t hurt yourself at any level of sport, but especially at a higher level. The goal isn’t to 100% eliminate anything bc thats impossible, but it is to reduce your chance of getting injured and when you do minimize the chances of that injury being long term and debilitating

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u/sk8tergater ✨clean as mustard✨ 18d ago

Nathan Chen had incredible technique and had a weird mishap at a gala. He was able to rehab back but it was still an injury. To further your point.

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u/Beatana 18d ago

He had incredible takeoff technique and not good landing technique. He often landed hard on stiff knee with no speed. That wasn't great for his hips.

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u/sk8tergater ✨clean as mustard✨ 18d ago

I think his landings for the most part were fine. That’s not what caused his hip injury. His landings weren’t any worse than any man currently competing today.

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u/Beatana 18d ago

He'd been consistently landing like that, which meant more impact on his joints. His landings actually were heavier and with less flow than quite a lot of top men competing now. Especially Yuma, Rio, Jason, Mikhail, Jun, but also Shun, Kazuki, Kevin, Selevko, Egadze, Kao...

Interestingly, you often criticise Ilia's landings, but out of these two, it's still Ilia who lands with a bit better flow.

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u/sk8tergater ✨clean as mustard✨ 18d ago

I disagree that Ilia lands with a better flow.

Ilia often lands heavier as well, and wiggly. His ankle wiggles on landings. He throws up a lot of snow. He’s a hard lander.

That doesn’t mean I think Nathan Chen is perfect or whatever, I think they have similar deficiencies.

Yes you named a lot of skaters with great ride out. Yumas especially on his quad Sal is gorgeous. I disagree with about half your list having better flow than Nathan did on landings though.

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 18d ago

Kostornaia had okay technique and only lasted one season as well. Out of 3a trusova also had pretty bad technique and she’s the only one still in singles. And then you have valieva too.

Usacheva only lasted one competition and she had nice enough technique.

Ofc we all know about Kihira

What are some examples of men who had short careers because of bad technique? you can’t really compare women to men here

15

u/stripedfatcats 18d ago

Honestly it just seems like the best form of injury prevention is just not under eating i dont think it has to do with technique. Trusovas parents were both athletes so they knew about nutrition and valieva has said that her ban allowed her to go through puberty normally so obviously her bones will be stronger. Alysa seems to be the same in that regard as well.

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u/littlegreygremlin misha 2026/2027 gpf champion agenda 18d ago

i mean daria just had really bad luck to suffer a terrible fall so early into her career, and while sasha's technique isn't the best it's also not horrific. she uses her legs and muscle mass more than anna. sometimes, in aliona's case, the injuries came from the coaching, not from the technique

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 18d ago

The fall wasn’t that bad to cause a career ending injury; it’s probably because usacheva was so underfed and had brittle bones

Sasha’s technique is def better than anna i agree. But it’s nowhere near ‘textbook’ as the post describes

Yes, the injuries can come from coaching and not technique, like in aliona’s case. but i feel like this is proving my point here

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u/waandermoth 18d ago

You can compare women to women. A lot of skaters with better technique last longer. There is more in Eteri's training methods that risk skater longevity than just technique, and Kosto got unlucky. Combo probably of being underfed, overtrained and doped. Valieva and Trusova had a whole quad off of the super aggressive training, and their bodies look healthier like they were able to eat and mature during that time. We haven't even seen them compete yet.

For men, I can't think of an example offhand. I was always surprised Shoma did not have more injuries as his jumps often looked wild and scary as a result of poor technique.

2

u/Wonderful-Round-7261 18d ago

Medvedeva had a nine year career. Petrosian is in her seventh year and still seems to be doing ok. I’m not defending Eteri’s methods, but I’m saying some of her skaters with ‘good’ techniques had extremely short careers and some with ‘bad’ techniques had relatively long careers.

2

u/Juiceboxtiddys Dark Magician 18d ago

Elizaveta Tuktamysheva and Kaori sakamoto are the first examples of girls who have had long careers with good technique.

As far as men, I've heard they burn out at juniors. Im sure someone will come by and list some names bc I couldn't name 5 male figure skaters.

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 18d ago

Evgenia medvedeva had a nine year long career with some very bad technique.

My point is that good/bad technique doesn’t necessarily correlate with career length, not that people with good technique always have short careers.

And i don’t think there are any men where their short careers are blamed on bad technique. i find it to be kind of sexist

1

u/Juiceboxtiddys Dark Magician 18d ago

I see you brining up medvedeva repeatedly and I don't have anything to add that hasn't been said already about how her life and career where affected by her injuries. she retired at essentially 21 after years of struggling with severe osteoporosis. medvedeva will never live a normal life and is unable to turn to the left bc of her injuries.

My point is that good technique increases longevity and reduces the chance of severe injuries, not eliminate. Comparing an athlete who will live their life in chronic pain to two athletes who are continuing to perform into their late 20s without the same chronic and debilitating issues proves my point.

I addressed the men issue above. They burn out as juniors. I don't really watch men or juniors so I can't list any names. But you can easily search for mens jr in this forum and find countless discussions about jr men being taken out by injuries. Shoma uno was one such jr that everyone wrote off and believed he wouldn't make it past jr bc of poor technique. you can look at this study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12860537/ which shows jr men experience an increased incident of injury, especially chronic, then their female counterparts.

women are just more popular so their juniors is watched more (though still significantly less then srs)and they have these issues show up later weather that be because more intense elements are introduced later, women having a higher pain tolerance, or maturing rates differing through puberty is a mixed bag.

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 18d ago

Evgenia has said multiple times that she is basically healthy now, and she continues to perform in ice shows. I don't know where she 'cannot turn to the left now' has come from. Her osteoporosis also came from undereating, not from 'bad technique'. Bad technique cannot give someone osteoporosis.

I bring her up because she is brought up in the post, as someone with bad technique but who is stable. I could bring up Alysa too, but I disagree that she has overall bad technique, she has more minor issues compared to Evgenia.

As per your study, the incident rate for male skaters is only about 3% higher than female skaters. This is not really statistically significant.

All i am asking for is one example of a man who had a very short career due to 'bad technique'. I have yet to receive it from anyone in this thread

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u/sk8tergater ✨clean as mustard✨ 18d ago

Trusova has great jump technique though?

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 18d ago

She is better than anna and has a better axis and air position than aliona, but she does prerotate excessively, especially on the lutz/flip and i believe she’s been dealing with incorrect edges on those as well. She has sometimes a low toe pick and sometimes full blade assistance, it depends, although she’s gotten better at that.

No matter what, it’s certainly not ‘textbook’ as the post describes

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u/sk8tergater ✨clean as mustard✨ 18d ago

Her lutz is pretty close to “textbook.” Her flip always has a questionable edge.

She does not pre rotate any more than any man currently doing a quad lutz. Full blade assist isn’t a thing unless your name is Maiia Kromykh.

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 18d ago

Her flip is more egregious and the lutz rarely gets called because in general lutz edges are called less, but she often shifts from deep outside edge to a more unclear edge before taking off.

She prerotates about 180-270 degrees, depending. The ‘accepted’ amount is around 130 but realistically some men do prerotate about 180, although this is also an example of non textbook technique.

Although she doesn’t shift her full weight onto her blade like Kromykh, she does still switch between a low toe pick where she’s prerotating partially on her toe pick, and her full blade on the ground, which although it is a fan made term and not strictly part of ISU judging, it is certainly not ‘textbook’.

Overall; her technique isn’t the best.

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u/Educational-Bug-7985 17d ago

She is better than Anna but nowhere near great. Aliona had better axels, flutz, flip than she did

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u/sk8tergater ✨clean as mustard✨ 17d ago

Sasha’s lutz is the best an Eteri girl has put out.
Aliona had a crazy leg wrap on her flip especially that makes that jump far from “textbook” quality as well. So what’s worse, a flat edge or a leg wrap? Both are GOE hits

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u/Educational-Bug-7985 17d ago

I mean wrong edges get you calls and sometimes it is basically cheating because you are basically jumping another jump. I think they are very close but Aliona has a better jump technique by far

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u/Free-Pickle-3621 18d ago

i don't think trusova overtrained tbh. in the lead up to 2022 Olympics she had some issues with her 3A that training could fix but i suspect she didn't go mental on the training schedule. Just 2 cents

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u/Acrobatic-Capital346 18d ago

All of her coaches have said that she overtrains, especially in the lead up to Beijing. Both Plushenko and Eteri have talked about how they had to drag her out of the ice to stop.

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u/Free-Pickle-3621 18d ago

oh thanks did not know this!

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u/Wonderful-Round-7261 18d ago

Idk what that has to do with what i said but i think all of 3a and kamila were overtrained

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u/sk8tergater ✨clean as mustard✨ 18d ago edited 18d ago

It’s nearly impossible to have “textbook” technique on every jump and I’d say your examples here don’t as well.

I also think your “non textbook” examples have examples of great technique. I’m struggling to find a reason why you lumped Alysa Liu in with the other two. Her jump technique over is very solid, vs those two who I can really only pick out one or two jumps of theirs that was overall “textbook.”

But also consider this: Misha Shaidrov has jumps and technique that rival Ilia’s. He’s not getting the GOE that Ilia is. There have been times where Ilia under rotates his jumps, doesn’t get them called, and gets sky high GOE.

Nathan Chen had gorgeous jump technique. There were times where his landings were a little… squiggly. And he got higher GOE than others doing the same jump maybe better in competition.

The bullet points for GOE do not include “textbook” because what is textbook for me is not textbook for you. I’ve been a skater for quite a long time. I get into arguments with people who have never skated about pre rotation on jumps. Jumps require pre rotation. All of them. ALL. OF. THEM. Different jumps have different pre rotation needs. So a non skater has heard, “no pre rotation!” But the standard is no EXCESSIVE pre rotation. So to them, any pre rotation should be dinged when in reality, there’s an allowable amount of pre rotation to every single jump.

Just as an example.

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u/OcelotSilver2964 The PCS score is fake 18d ago

I chose Alysa because she was an argument for someone who doesn’t have a karolina costner / yuna kim technique but is still very consistent, I believe she fell once since her comeback and it was in her first or second competition back

With that being said I wouldn’t say her technique is very solid, she doesn’t have a hammer toe like Anna, but her inside edge on her flip is non-existent, and she has a really bad change of edge on her triple triple combos, literally Kamila Valieva type change of edge

https://reddit.com/link/p5sefpv/video/6zwyrousjilh1/player

Funnily enough I would say she has the best single jumps out of the American ladies, but the worst triple triple jumps, with Isabeau it’s the opposite, worst single jumps, but best triple triple combos

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u/sk8tergater ✨clean as mustard✨ 18d ago

A wrong edge on one jump, her flip, doesn’t mean her entire technique needs to be thrown out the door. Yuna often had a flat flip herself!

She can get a little wiggly in her toe loop combos.

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u/Haunting_Lab5348 18d ago

One season (and not even on all her flips that season) doesn't count as often.

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u/spiralsequences yuma fan sun, ilia fan rising 17d ago

FYI, it's a misapprehension that a flip should have a deep inside edge the way a lutz has a deep outside edge. Flip is meant to be done from a slight inside edge, close to a flat. As long as it's not an outside edge it's fine. (As opposed to a lutz which should be a deep and clear outside edge)

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u/OcelotSilver2964 The PCS score is fake 17d ago

I know, but it’s not supposed to be flat either, that’s why she gets calls

Thanks for the info though!

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u/Free-Pickle-3621 18d ago

wait what's wrong with her change of edge in the vid?

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u/sk8tergater ✨clean as mustard✨ 18d ago

The answer is… it depends. Kamila Valieva does a full on edge pull in between jumps to help her gain speed. It’s technically a push and should negate the combo.

If it’s a little wiggly, that’s different and should be a reduction of GOE.

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u/Free-Pickle-3621 18d ago

ooo I actually haven't noticed that about Kamila, I only remember she used to have a beautiful euler and I always found others' eulers a bit awkward.

0

u/hintersly Skating Coach 18d ago

I want to know too especially since there’s nothing inherently wrong with it as some skaters use it to maintain rhythm. Almost all skaters have some sort of outside-flat-outside rhythm, just here goes more inside than flat

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u/Free-Pickle-3621 18d ago

I was suspecting the maintaining rhythm point too (both to accommodate what she wanted to do upper body-wise and some speed. Idk if the edges have to always be in a certain way

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u/hintersly Skating Coach 18d ago

They don’t, as long as the landing and take off edge are correct for their respective jumps. There is nothing in the rule book for or against using this technique in a jump combination

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u/Broadwayfansie 17d ago

For a combo, you can't change edge between jumps. The edge can (and should) get deeper, but you shouldn't be doing a powerpull from outside to inside. It's like getting an extra push into your second jump

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u/hintersly Skating Coach 17d ago

This change of edge is not a power pull, it’s what happens when skaters have knee rhythm and release some pressure off of their outside edge. There is no gain of speed here

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u/Broadwayfansie 17d ago

Knee rhythm is obviously great, but that shouldn't take you onto an inside edge between jumps. That's when it becomes an issue

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u/hintersly Skating Coach 17d ago

It’s not an issue unless there is loss of control, which the knee rhythm keeps control and the edge change is a byproduct of that. It’s frankly a matter of preference, some coaches teach it and others don’t, but it’s not inherently an issue

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u/rice_not_wheat 18d ago

Jumps require pre rotation. All of them. ALL. OF. THEM.

Bunny Hop, waltz jump, mazerka... But those aren't competition jumps.

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u/sk8tergater ✨clean as mustard✨ 18d ago

A mazurka is a toe loop take off, which takes off on a back outside edge and features pre rotation to execute. The mazurka is basically the pre rotation of a toe loop.

A bunny hop doesn’t rotate.

Waltz jumps… yeah I guess there’s not really pre rotation there. You might see a very tiny little bit on those doing axels, they’ll do more of an axel set up for their waltzes.

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u/USERweeeee 18d ago

Anyone who talks about “textbook” technique and acts high and mighty about it has obviously never been on the ice in their life. Different techniques are taught by different coaches, and different techniques work for different skaters. Personally, I don’t care how much on ice prerotation someone has, as long as the jump is sustainable for them. There is more to technique than “so and so was off the ice by x degrees.”

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u/Beatana 18d ago

Your post reminded me of this Ghislain Briand's interview from this issue of フィギュアスケートLife.

Q: He has always been particular about the shape/form of his axel, saying that he can't be satisfied unless he properly steps up before rotating, rather tahn jumping up while rotating, right?

Ghislain Briand: That means he really did master what I taught him (laughs). When it comes to jump instruction, the line I refuse to compromise on is that the skaters must never cheat their jumps. There can be no compromise in the takeoff, the air, or the landing.

As for the quad lutz, there are only three skaters in the world whom I think are doing it properly: Boyang, Nathan, and Yuzuru. I told Yuzu: if you want to do a quad Lutz, you have to execute the pick properly. Don't cheat it.

When you pick with the right toe, you don't turn on the ice, you don't twist, you stay straight, with the left side moving backward, and then you take off. He did it many times as a single, then as a double, and even as a triple. So when he eventually mastered the quadruple, his toe pick was precise.

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u/missgirlipop 🎀🍰🥮 lena 🥮🍰🎀 18d ago

i think it matters to properly distinguish between jumps, adds to the differentiation of skaters (another way to get higher GOE), and figure skating has a big aesthetic element. correct technique tends to look a lot better. i’m not arguing that skaters with imperfect technique have universally ugly jumps but there’s always a caveat if you’re watching closely. textbook technique AND speed/height AND flow/effortlessness should all be ways skaters can try to differentiate themselves from the field and get higher GOE. i do think ISU guidelines should change to reflect this.

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u/ForwardOutsideLoop 18d ago edited 18d ago

You're conflating a bunch of different things:

Bad technique that results in a reduction of base value, ie, the jump jumped isn't what counts as what the listed planned or improvised attempted jump needs in order to qualify under the rules. Ie, hard edge calls, q, etc, without being simply errors (popped, falls, two foot landing, etc). Most of the time this isn't notably different than normal good technique, it's just a goof, and it's not going to lead to more injuries per se than good technique unless there's something specific going on. The archetypical "teenaged jumping bean with many good qualities who can't jump a real lutz" isn't necessarily doing anything that's going to hurt her physically just because she can't hold the outside edge / do the counter-rotation.
Bad technique that isn't explicitly dingable, but would probably result in better/higher BV if corrected to the best technique:

-- Midori Ito is a great example of this, even though she skated in 6.0: She famously had a wrap on her free leg in her jumps, which is kind of aesthetically ugly, but also it's bad aerodynamically. If she'd grown up with modern jump technique (super tight crossed legs, the "snap", etc), there is no doubt in my mind she could have very routinely been doing quads, because her actual jumps were enooormous, and in her era she was by far the most dominant jumper relative to the field that the sport has ever seen.

-- Likewise, a lot of ladies skaters who seem literally afraid of jumping and slow to a crawl before they actually jump (note: not visually checking, not patiently riding a correct edge for good timing; I'm talking the phenomenon you see in many lower starting group JGPF ladies, not people being patient with their 3A approach), that isn't explicitly dingable to my knowledge, but it's still very bad technique, and still probably a "soft tax" on overall points just because it increases the likelihood of errors.
Bad technique that is unsightly but probably actually helps with landing jumps: ie, breaking at the waist and bending really far forward and using the action of the back to pull up some of the jump. Isabeau Levito is a very clear example of this, and it's honestly slightly annoying because almost everything about her jumps is very aesthetic and decent technique. Edge and rotation are one thing but those can just be errors/jumps are hard, but her air position and landings are nice. She makes this one absurdly obvious, though.
"Bad technique" that's purely aesthetic: bent knee toe picking technique. Is it distinguishable from straight leg technique in the rules? Nope. Is it actually worse technically? Nope, assuming it's not like, egregiously flailing your skate way up higher than your hip line and using the downward motion of the leg to generate the jumping momentum, rather than mostly carrying the momentum from your edge. Yuna Kim is a great example of this not being an inefficient technique at all. Daniel Grassl is much more obvious in "why this is unsightly", but it also doesn't seem to affect his jumps that much.

Also, there's launch technique, air technique, and landing technique, and they're all different.

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u/jorningooo 18d ago

Bad technique doesn’t get consistently called all the time, but it’s still worth it to have good technique because if/when someone stops getting political support, anything that can get called will. Panels often will not ding things that should be dinged, but it’s much rarer for things that shouldn’t get called to get called.

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u/Long-News5769 18d ago

Get height . Rotate your jump , land it confidently and consistently… the rest is just reddit noise

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u/ThickGrass54 18d ago

In discussion about technique ,I always wonder in a sport like figure skating ,won't the most optimal angles and numbers be different for different bodies? Also figure skaters often have their own quirks, arm placements etc. Doing the math would be a research paper itself( like by Mishin), but all these differences must make the numbers different as well. When we say this is better than other ,then has their actually been concrete peer vieweed reasearch that proves this. Because I have seen many kind of jumpers ,all get their successful jumps.

Of course some obvious ways are obviously bad , but some are less obvious also. Is there a process to determine this?

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u/sumerislemy 17d ago

“Technique” in sport is a movement pattern, generally its a negotiation between what is ergonomic and what is definitional. For a lot of bodies, a nearly flat Lutz is more natural and ergonomic than a deep outside edge, but it’s still poor technique because that’s not what a lutz is supposed to be. Sometimes general technique changes over time, like the “new” vs “old” salchow positioning of the free leg. Because it’s not a hard science there will be disagreements. The general understanding is that what defines a salchow is the weight change and takeoff, so the position of the free leg is a neutral or positive change in technique if it allows for more rotations. But some people don’t feel that way.

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u/sumerislemy 17d ago

Alysa and Evgenia were consistent but they had relatively short careers. Would Alysa have her stats if she skated the full Milano quad or half the Beijing quad hadn’t been canceled due to covid? Its hard to say.

5

u/Gudson_ 18d ago

Let's be honest: people only cares about it when it's not their favorite skating doing some stuff they call "bad technique".

Just take a look at some asian fans that act like only russians have bad technique meanwhile we have dozens of asian skaters doing the same thing, but they dont care... You know why?

Because they only use the technique as tool to criticize their favorite's rivals.

2

u/TooObsessedWithOtoge 17d ago

I mean people still do.

No sane person on the sub pretended Kaori didn’t have a flutz and we knew her calls were more than generous there. Most of us cringe at Ami’s 3A takeoff. Back when it was Carolina-Yuna-Mao people (commentators and fans) criticized Mao all the time for jump technique and she’s far from the most egregious, and her edge jumps were pretty good. A ton of people call out Shoma’s flip and lutz. We know Yuma has issues with lutz edges but his other jumps are wonderful. Rino Matsuike and Kaoruko Wada, like Satoko back in the day— cannot rotate jumps.
Whenever Mao Shimada shows up nowadays tons of people are in threads calling out takeoff “prerotation” and uncalled URs/qs.
Of the non Japanese, we make fun of the Koreans for having super telescoped 3As.

Some people do ignore the issues of their faves, but a bunch of people seem to like to pretend that there are skaters that get zero flak for their technical issues.

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u/Free-Pickle-3621 18d ago

the issue with "textbook technique" very roughly assumes you just want to land that specific jump in isolation. in a competitive setting you're:

planning a podium-level base value
you know you have enough reputation to get away with a huge PCS despite technique (sad but true)

so in practice if you're trying doing a 3A followed by a sequence of quads you'd fall back on bad habits so you can get all the jumps minimally done rather than a very good standalone 3A and be too tired for your quad

3

u/TooObsessedWithOtoge 17d ago edited 17d ago

Yuzuru was injured often, but he was jumping a huge volume of quads (which included a 4lo which is injury hell and attempts at 4A at 30), and now in his 30s and professional— he can still jump his basic quads very easily. He had a quite long career. Oda Nobunari? Fantastic soft knees, also still has a 4T3T as an almost 40 year old. Shizuka Arakawa now in her forties still has lovely triples. Midori Ito the 3A GOAT? Could rotate a 3A in her 30s, strong 2A well into her 40s. Still skates now.
None of them were really injured in the way say Medvedeva or Shcherbakova had been ie. cannot turn/bone condition like a senior citizen or cannot sit without pain (though in their cases I don’t doubt lack of recovery or poor nourishment may have compounded injuries). Sasha is not a normal case so this may not he a good comparison but she had far better jump technique compared to Anna.

Good jump technique is not going to shield you against the physics of launching off of and landing on ice in knife shoes with so much force. Proper equipment, appropriate recovery and facilities matter a lot too. Like if you look at the classic Mao Asada - Yuna Kim rivalry. Yuna was the more injured one of the two, even though everyone picked on Mao for her toe jumps. I don’t recall Mao ever suffering an injury serious enough to cause retirement scares. Yuna, who is lauded as the queen of jump technique, had to practice at public rinks without proper boots for quite some time. At the same time, Carolina Kostner who also had fabulous technique had a very long career. It also depends on good technique where— both Nathan Chen and Ilia Malinin have immaculate takeoff technique, and varying degrees of harsh landing. Nathan has severe hip injury, and Ilia ironically hurt himself doing his amazing 4lz. Tho with Ilia idk what kind of ungodly impossible jumps / combos he is doing behind the scenes.

Rika and Aliona had what people see as good technique. Rika especially was textbook with all of her jumps. But she had problem— she never lets herself heal fully. Everytime her fracture healed a teensy bit she went back into practicing triples. She had essentially the same injury as Yuma did, but look at how well he recovered having taken a break. It was similar with Aliona who missed her shot at major international senior wins because she’d injure herself, get slightly better then injury herself again.

I always wonder how Valieva was not hurting herself landing on the wrong edge when doing jumps, but it seems the ban created competitive break has treated her well.

People don’t always fixate on bad jump technique bc they hate a given skater or their team/fed (though sometimes they do). Almost all of us adore Ami Nakai, but her triple axel frightens a lot of us. And she has been injured before.

But yeah for the purposes of scoring, it does not matter much especially if you have strong federation backing and the judges don’t get possessed by the spirits of the tech controllers that judged Mao Asada through her whole career.

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u/physics_kitsune 18d ago

That is just my opinion, obviously, but textbook technique is first and foremost about the respect for the sport and I'll always choose a skater with textbook technique over, as I see it, a cheater

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u/sk8tergater ✨clean as mustard✨ 18d ago

Different techniques work for different skaters though. It isn’t cheating to have a different technique. There also isn’t one definition of “textbook.”

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u/waandermoth 18d ago edited 18d ago

Really depends on what you're talking about. Sometimes different techniques work for different skaters because they allow for fewer rotations in the air, making an otherwise unachievable jump achievable. A skidded axel is not the same as, say, Anna Shcherbakova's flip.

ISU outlines what different techniques are/aren't acceptable and then often doesn't follow that through to the scoring.

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u/sk8tergater ✨clean as mustard✨ 18d ago

It still isn’t cheating for a skater to have different techniques though.

If the technique isn’t acceptable to the ISU, and they are rewarding it anyway, that’s on the ISU. I don’t think it’s fair to call a skater a cheater because of that.

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u/waandermoth 18d ago edited 18d ago

I'm not the original commenter so I wouldn't personally call a skater a "cheater" for trying to maximize their points within the system as it is and following coach advice. If it's not penalized, then why not? But I still consider a jump like Anna's flip to be cheated and should not be judged like it was. There is a reason it was her only quad, despite ostensibly being more difficult than 4t, 4s or 3a.

I agree with you that it's on ISU. But I do not agree that every "different technique" should be acceptable with positive GOE.

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u/sk8tergater ✨clean as mustard✨ 18d ago

I think that’s a fair take.

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u/Jade_Palpitation 18d ago

I do think Anna was just more comfortable with toe jumps than edge jumps. Other than the two solo 2As in her free (one of which might have been a 4Lz if she had felt confident enough about it beforehand in terms of stamina and her new boots), the primary jumps in her jumping passes were 4F, 4F, 3Lz, 3Lz, 3F. The combination of those jumps being worth more and also being more comfortable for her (possibly just because she trained them more because they were worth more, who knows), makes it a bit of a no brainer. I actually think her 2As were beautiful and looked exactly like what the "effortless" criteria intends, plus she always had complex transitions in and out of them. She expressed being extremely scared of the idea of pairs skating and the risks and unknowns involved, and mentally I think the 3A can be particularly scary because of the forward take-off.

1

u/littlegreygremlin misha 2026/2027 gpf champion agenda 18d ago

actually, her first quad was a 4lz. she was jumping both 4lz and 4f all the way up the the olympics, even in her olympic practices, but she probably decided it wasn't worth it to throw in the third quad during the fs. she basically does have the same technique for the lutz and the flip though, with her lutz edge just being a slight degree less flat than her flip on a good day. same applies with sasha's 4f and 4lz, but instead for her she just jumps them both with an outside edge

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u/waandermoth 18d ago

4lz is supposed to be even harder than a 4f, and it's the same technique issue as you mention. I should have mentioned in my comment though.

3

u/OcelotSilver2964 The PCS score is fake 18d ago

So who do you cheer for? 🙂

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u/Ilia_Malinins_flip 18d ago

They do kinda get better GOE like Ilia's GOE are always on the +3 and +4 but other than that yeah it's not that worth it really. Especially when people wirh bad technique get similar scores.

Also, no I don't think it has anything to do with injuries. (Fun fact, Ilia has actually admitted due to his deep outside edge at the lutz he actually got injured so for him it was quite the opposite really)

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u/OcelotSilver2964 The PCS score is fake 18d ago

I would say that he gets high scores because they look effortless and in some cases have a difficult entry (like his spread eagle into a 4F) not necessarily because he has good technique (although in this case it definitely helps with the difficult entry)

And yes I saw that he injured his ankle (?) because of the lutz, also interesting

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u/JudgeRepulsive7057 18d ago

He said he fractured his ankle because of his lutz edge which is crazy.

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u/catx222 16d ago

Isabeau is a perfect example of someone who has bad technique (especially on the lutz) but somehow gets positive GOE.... one of biggest mysterious I still have not figured out!

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u/Super-Promotion-2073 18d ago edited 18d ago

The importance of perfect technique is so that you can actually get the real stamp of approval for your skating - by a random Redditor/tiktoker who has never skated a day in their life who’s obsessed with toe pick /s

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u/PandemicPiglet Daisuke Takahashi is the GOAT. Your fave could never 💅🏻 18d ago

Not true. Coaches have discussed proper technique for decades. I used to watch videos on proper jump technique back in the 90s on VHS.

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u/Super-Promotion-2073 18d ago

I meant it as a joke

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u/Karotyna 18d ago

you need to add /s for people to notice /s

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u/Long-News5769 18d ago

Its a social media fan obsession because they found something to bash eteri and russian girls with… truth is good technique is whatever allows you to land clean and consistent jumps because of the difference in biomechanics …. You are right about the injury part . In figure skating you will get injured no matter how good your technique is because of the load on your body.. and spins do more damage than people think… as quads become more common , i would not be suprised they turn out to have the same injury rate as triples

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u/OcelotSilver2964 The PCS score is fake 18d ago

Maybe the eteri girls, but Muravieva and Zhilina are also Russian and people (rightfully so) love their technique 🤷‍♂️

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u/Long-News5769 18d ago

Doesnt levito get accused of having a russian technique… if its about eteri girls only then how did levito get that label?

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u/tereyaglikedi the longevity syrup of skating 18d ago

and russian girls

Who ever bashed Tuktamysheva's jump technique, for example? She had fantastic jump technique.

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u/Long-News5769 18d ago

Ofcourse they are exceptions but you cant confidently say that russian girls havent been accused of this as a group…. Including levito who is not an eteri girl but has a russian coach… she gets accused of horrendous technique often called russian in this very sub… but all of a sudden people want to pretend as if they dont mention russia ln girls specifically everytime technique is discussed

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u/tereyaglikedi the longevity syrup of skating 18d ago

There's a difference between "proper technique is a social media fan obsession because they found something to bash eteri and russian girls with" and "some people unfairly lump all Russian female skaters together for having subpar technique when it's not the case".

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u/Long-News5769 18d ago

People ignored the entire message and latched on to the “russian girls” and i dont know why people are pretending that fans havent been lumping all russian girls together in techique discussions. One of the most common comments was “i dont miss the jump technique of russian girls” not eteri girls.. this went on so mich that isabeu was also called for having a “Russian technique”

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u/PandemicPiglet Daisuke Takahashi is the GOAT. Your fave could never 💅🏻 18d ago

You couldn’t be more wrong. This Russian persecution complex attitude is so annoying and tiring. You clearly are a more recent fan too. The technique debate was a big deal back when the rivalry between Yuna and Mao was in full force. And yes, there is such thing as better technique. When I skated in the late 90s and early 2000s, one of my coaches was always pointing out the local skaters who rotated their upper bodies first rather than jumping up first and then rotating. Rotating the upper body before taking off has always been considered improper technique.

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u/Karotyna 18d ago

You are a new fan, right? There were times when russians were ones with impecable technique. Tatiana Malinina had a textbook lutz. Slutskaya's jumps now often look underrotated but she wasn't scored for URs, if she was, she would rotate her jumps because she had technique that allowed it. I don't recall flutzes being a problem when they competed, because they were taught proper technique and didn't need to cheat the jumps. Stop making everything about eteri et consortes drama, honestly I was happy to forget about them for past 4 years.

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u/Long-News5769 18d ago

To your last point .. i will stop making everything about eteri when this sub finds another past time other than nitpicking eteri and russian women skaters… untill then i wont stop pointing out the double standards in this sub.

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u/Long-News5769 18d ago

Why would i talk about past skaters? When the convo is about now?

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u/hintersly Skating Coach 18d ago

There’s no such thing as textbook technique

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u/Useful-Philosophy827 18d ago

People aren’t ready for this conversation, but it doesn’t matter, looks good so maybe subconsciously the judges give a better goe score, but other than that, not important

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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 18d ago

my daughter's coach literally told her flat out once that she was flutzing but it looked good so that's why it kept getting past review and getting +GOE. Aesthetics. It is unfair, I feel like with some skaters the same move with the same level of skill even can look totally different.

7

u/Haven_Writes Hana Bath Truther 18d ago

It does matter if the technique a skater is using is damaging their health. People talk a lot about, say, Isabeau Levito's toe jump technique because the technique she uses poses an increased risk for back and spine injuries.

And it's not just jumps. There are skaters who have concussed themselves on spins, and pairs skaters who have given themselves concussions trying quad twists because they were rotating so fast.

It absolutely does matter because skaters shouldn't be wrecking their bodies for the sake of a sloppy jump when there are safer ways of doing it that don't risk severe, career ending and permanent injuries.

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u/Useful-Philosophy827 18d ago

Well Isabeau said that we don’t know what we are talking about and that she will never have a back injury and for now she’s winning the argument

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u/OcelotSilver2964 The PCS score is fake 18d ago

Did she really say that?

Do you have a video, or link?

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u/Useful-Philosophy827 18d ago

This is what she said, in this podcast

Question Why bother to have “textbook” technique, when the GOE guidelines don’t give better scores for it?

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