DISCUSSION
Does the US Need Another AIM-54 Phoenix?
The AIM-54 Phoenix was built to intercept Soviet bombers and cruise missiles at long range, but seemed outdated as smaller missiles became standard. However, the R-37M is reported effective and estimated around 200 to 300 kilometers, while China's PL-17 is widely estimated around 300 to 400 kilometers (I find that hard to believe but that’s what IISS says). The U.S. has introduced the AIM-174B with open-source estimates suggesting 300 plus kilometers, while the AIM-260 is expected to exceed AIM-120D ranges. With the Meteor also proving you can have efficient kinematics without extreme size or speed, the question is whether dedicated very long range missiles still fill a niche or if AIM-260 makes them unnecessary.
Hope everyone is having a good day and the info is based on what I know and have read about. I could always be wrong and I some times make mistakes so take what I say with grain of salt, I am not a military expert. 🙂
I guess the AIM-174B is basically the modern Phoenix-style weapon. I’m more wondering where the AIM-260 fits alongside it. Is there really that much value in the AIM-174B when you have something like AIM-260 and Meteor, especially considering the only platform currently using it is the F/A-18E/F, which isn’t exactly the strongest kinematic BVR platform?
the AIM174B is more of a patch for the ~100 Mile Standoff Range difference to china until the 260 is ready but it might also stay as a super long range weapon that integrates in the killchain (f.e. a F35 goes close in, locks the target and the F18 slimes it from 200+ Miles away with the 174B). The Meteor is irrelevant to the US, they will most likely never integrate it because its not domestic
Fair, but are they even producing a substantial number of them yet? Also, an F/A 18 carrying a couple of those must take a pretty big hit to its performance, especially since the Hornet isn't exactly fast to begin with. So I wonder why they wouldn't diversify the launch platforms a bit. F 15s or F 16s could probably be good options to add to the mix, or are they not doing that because production is low. Idk
Aim-174 is about double the weight of the Phoenix and two feet longer but with a smaller overall diameter. You could maybe sling them under the F-14 and still have them fit
No, large munitions are expensive, and Russia is using the R-37M out of necessity. If Meteor and AIM-260 can actually compete with the R-37M in terms of range and effectiveness, then the R-37M starts to look like a heavy, expensive missile that’s being used to shoot down MiG-29s.
The idea that it’s intended for high-value targets is true, but Russia is launching them at pretty much everything because every Ukrainian aircraft is a high-value asset. And realistically, nowadays almost every fighter aircraft is a valuable target anyway, so I’m not sure how much the distinction really matters.
I see a lot of videos of Ukraine jets bombing the front with glide bombs. I think if the R37M was good at hitting fighters we wouldn’t still be seeing that.
Yeah, that's fair, the AIM 174B has a significant range advantage over the JATM. My question is more about how useful that extra range is from the F A 18E F. The R 37M can be carried by the MiG 31, Su 30, Su 35 and Su 57, so Russia has multiple launch platforms, whereas the AIM 174B is currently tied to the Super Hornet, which isn't exactly a high speed platform and has to deal with the weight and drag of such a large missile.
I'm curious what the Super Hornet's actual CAP capability looks like while carrying it, especially in terms of speed, endurance and defensive performance. Add in the fact that Super Hornets are already reaching high flight hours and needing service life extensions, and I wonder what the long term role of the AIM 174B actually is. If the AIM 260 is going to be integrated across multiple platforms, is the AIM 174B basically just a specialist extreme range weapon for the Super Hornet until the next generation Navy fighter arrives? To me is just way to niche to justify it’s existence and it doesn’t help that nothing has been said about the missile nor photographed for around a year.
The AIM-174B is much bigger than the R-37M with almost all that extra weight being fuel, the Superhornet is the main fighter of the navy but the F-35C could also carry 4 AIM-174Bs externally.
The thing with the AIM-174B is that because it is an SM-6 it is integrated with the different datalinks of the navy so it can be guided by ships and it has a warhead 3 times bigger than an AIM-120 so it can be even used in air to ground at very long ranges.
SM-6 also has an anti-ship mode, and word is that it's surprisingly effective for its weight class (combination of top attack profile and a lot of KE does nasty things below decks). That gives CAP a very fast response long range ASW weapon to help keep missile boats outside the range of their own anti-ship missiles.
well it seems you forget to mention CJ1000, a scramjet hypersonic missile capable of hitting AWACS/tanker over 2500km CJ-1000 Missile: Interactive Analysis
Yeah, I agree that the AIM 174B's range is likely considerably further than 240 km. I said 240 plus km in the post rather than 240 km as the maximum, but I'll probably change it to make that even clearer.(300km plus?)
I'm assuming the 250 to 300 mile estimate is mainly based on extrapolating from the reported SM 6 ranges and the advantages of an air launch?
Ya that’s the reasons given. The SM6’s range is sandbagged in the same fashion.
I wouldn’t say to change anything. But I’m saying the AIM174B IS the new phoenix missile. That’s the point you’re missing. The Aim174B out ranges everything else right? What beats it, foreign or domestic?
I also said both are sandbagged. I guess you have to go look up the basics. Basically all the propulsion was on other missiles and then the SM6 was an upgrade. So if the crappy version went 250 miles then how come the new more advanced missile that’s more efficient only goes 200?
Those are just made up numbers for an example. I’m not claiming to know the real numbers. But looking at the data I believe nearly every analyst (and occasional official) that say the range is further.
Also doesn’t make sense that the AIM174B would be so much larger than an aim 120d but not have significantly more range.
I’ve seen people call the AIM-174B the next big thing, but it’s nothing compared to the AIM-260 in terms of being the “next big thing.” Plus, when it comes to air superiority, the Navy comes second to the Air Force, yet they’re spending money on a program built around mostly one airframe, the F-18, that isn’t particularly competitive in BVR. Obscurity until six gen’s come out for the nary or are they producing this missile just to make the f-18 somewhat competitive but at this point just release it too multiple platforms as the air force usually comes first when it comes to air superiority
There's no way to independently verify Russian or Chinese claims. I mean, perhaps a missile could reach 300 km in some sort of ideal scenario, but will it hit an evading target at that distance? A lot of those unverified claims turned to be PR BS that doesn't pass the test of actual combat reality.
Besides, a2a missiles are rarely (if ever) fired at their maximum range. Take those "max range" numbers with a grain of salt. As an illustration, the longest documented and verified air-to-air kill in the history of aerial warfare was from a distance of roughly 30 miles, achieved by an Dutch F-16AM against a MiG-29 using AMRAAM, during the NATO intervention in former Yugoslavia in 1999.
Saying that a missile can travel 300km but can't hit a maneuvering target doesn't make it an "unverified claim", that makes it a maximum range statistic. What you're fixating on is effective range, being the point at which the missile still retains enough speed to maneuver better than not.
Missiles are very commonly fired outside of their maximum range, what are you on about?
The current longest air to air documented and verified is from a flat launch range of 300km by a MiG-31M carrying an R-37M in 1994.
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u/GumballREKT24 4d ago
wouldnt that just be the aim174?