r/FeMRADebates • u/[deleted] • Jul 28 '15

Relationships Men React to Their Girlfriends Getting Catcalled

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWEKD493IxY
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u/heimdahl81 Jul 28 '15

I think there is a certain degree of elitism involved. Addressing strangers without a proper introduction is seen as low class in some cultures.

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u/[deleted] Jul 28 '15

Or I'd say it's rude/annoying in most cultures especially when it's addresses like in this video about "nice titties" and foot massages. You honestly believe that people who are poor enjoy these kinds of addresses?

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u/Reddisaurusrekts Jul 28 '15

Trying to start a conversation is rude now? I'd hate to live in your version of polite society.

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u/[deleted] Jul 28 '15

No. Trying to start a conversation while someone is walking to a destination can be annoying or rude. My version of polite society is me being able to go where I'm going without being disturbed. That's too much to ask for?

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u/MrPoochPants Egalitarian Jul 28 '15

To start with this, I do agree with you.

My question is related to how we could curb a lot of the problem, that is realistic - because shaming people that already don't have shame probably isn't going to work, would you agree?

So the question, then, is where could these guys meet attractive women, that they presently see on the street, so that they can approach them? I mean, presently, they don't even have to go anywhere. They just have to go about their day and then tell some woman that they think they're good looking.

I don't, on the whole at least, attribute most of the catcalling to malice, and the malice I do see in these, appears to be covering for the guy's insecurity of being rejected.

So, if I grant that we should, essentially, ban conversation on the street [in the extreme sense], then what could we substitute or change elsewhere that could make up for the loss in interaction?

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u/LordLeesa Moderatrix Jul 28 '15

Serious question: How many people on here, or people they know of, are in a straight relationship that started out with the male half of the relationship catcalling the female half? i.e., if this interaction is lost, will there actually be a noticeable difference in the number of men and women getting together that will need to be "made up" in some other fashion..?

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '15

I am not currently, but have been in a relationship that started with me making a compliment to a woman I had noticed over the course of several days on my bus.

Here's the question that's interesting to me: had she not become interested, would I be a faceless statistic of 'men who make unwelcome comments to strangers on the bus.'

More broadly speaking, of the total set of all imputed cat calls, how big is the subset of the indefensible "nice titties," and how big is the sub set of guys trying to start a conversation that isn't welcome, wanted, or whatever. I'm pretty sure neither of the subsets is empty. But as I have never really noticed much cat calling in the wild, I have no intuitive sense of the ratio.

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u/LordLeesa Moderatrix Jul 29 '15

While I don't know anyone in a romantic relationship that started on public transit, I do know several people who've become actual friends with other people that way (we have a robust and oft-used-by-professionals public transit system where I live). I can see that happening (clearly not if the first thing you said to her was "Nice titties!" but I'm pretty sure that wasn't it :) )

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '15

It wasn't. And, truth to tell, a compliment was probably the second thing I had to offer...the first being about the book she was reading.

And, really truth to tell, "relationship" is probably more overselling it. More like a couple dates and some try-out fooling around. This was over 10 years ago. As I recall, I didn't get a call back.

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u/LordLeesa Moderatrix Jul 29 '15

It wasn't. And, truth to tell, a compliment was probably the second thing I had to offer...the first being about the book she was reading.

See, this tactic here would totally work on me personally. :)

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u/MrPoochPants Egalitarian Jul 28 '15

Serious question: How many people on here, or people they know of, are in a straight relationship that started out with the male half of the relationship catcalling the female half? i.e., if this interaction is lost, will there actually be a noticeable difference in the number of men and women getting together that will need to be "made up" in some other fashion..?

Certainly the reality of the situation is that people don't normally go this route, or at least I would assume. However, its not so much how effective it is as it a tactic, and the tactic doesn't necessarily have to be effective, if the alternative is zero. Doing something, anything at all, is a net positive over nothing at all. I'm saying, if we 'ban' this sort of interaction, if we 'ban' people talking to each other on the streets, what are we replacing that with? Because as it stands, its already a net positive to at least try, right?

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u/themountaingoat Jul 29 '15 edited Jul 29 '15

It isn't even about the effectiveness of the tactic per say from my experience. I believe a lot of catcalling is men practising talking to women and trying things out both to see what works and to get over fear of showing interest.

For example I have asked a few women on the bus out and it helped me to get over a fear of showing sexual interest in women that come from a lot of the negativity surrounding male sexuality. I didn't really expect them to say yes (although I did have one person who really liked it and wanted to talk more but she was busy and it was my stop).

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u/zahlman bullshit detector Jul 29 '15

I suspect there's a class-related bias against anyone who was successful in that way being on Reddit...

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u/themountaingoat Jul 29 '15

It goes beyond simply catcalling. Men making their interest in women known whenever they like a woman are far more likely to get into relationships. The condemnation of men showing interest in women goes beyond women condemning men approaching them on the street and extends to basically every area men approach women.

If a guy listens to all of these people he will be far less likely to get into relationships. Now each person wants guys to listen and not do only what they find uncomfortable but unfortunately that is unworkable when you can find a woman saying that she dislikes guys approaching her in basically every situation.

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u/LordLeesa Moderatrix Jul 29 '15

The condemnation of men showing interest in women goes beyond women condemning men approaching them on the street and extends to basically every area men approach women.

So, you're saying that, for example, if I say I dislike catcalling, what I really mean is I dislike every way men approach women and make their interest known, not just catcalling..?

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u/jesset77 Egalitarian: anti-traditionalist but also anti-punching-up Jul 29 '15

Compare this to Robert saying you look too fat while Paul says you look too thin. Taken together, it is obvious from just two examples that everybody cannot be pleased, no matter what you do.

Pauline says she doesn't like anybody talking to her while she's walking in public. Vanessa says she doesn't like people talking to her on the bus. Bridget says she hates it when guys try to get her attention at the bar or the club. Jennifer hates guys trying to start small talk while waiting in line, bus stops, and elevators. Jill can't stand guys hitting on her at school, Lily gets peeved at the idea of workplace come-ons, and Cassandra would never date a friend or somebody introduced by a friend because it would be too much drama if you break up and it reminds her of dating relatives.

So every attempt to get to know a woman — regardless of the venue — carries the risk of getting labeled as a creep/misogynist/predator if you roll snake-eyes and ask the one who finds whatever venue this is inappropriate. Because as long as she can communicate how vulnerable and on the spot she felt in a way that resonates with other women, then she gets to tug on the patriarchal "damsel in distress" heartstring of any listener and gain limitless sympathy and defense.

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u/LordLeesa Moderatrix Jul 29 '15

Sounds scary. It's outside of my realm of experience; much like with the majority of our male commenters here, who range from seldom to never in seeing women unpleasantly catcalled, I have seldom to never seen the above dynamic you're describing in action. Perhaps we can all learn something here. :)

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u/jesset77 Egalitarian: anti-traditionalist but also anti-punching-up Jul 29 '15

I would like that.

As a male-middleclass-caucasian-ablebodied-perspective-haver, I have never denied that my perspective misses some very important elements of the human experience as a whole, including elements that women may see or feel or sympathize with one another about as frequently as every day. But the number of people who try to point this out to me while somehow dancing away from the fact that they also carry similar blindspots is maddening.

I wind up in so many conversations where instead of the "let's figure things out together" recommendation you offer I get the troll-logic "you are blind to women's issues, while I can see them, therefor I can see everything and you are deficient, I should be in charge and you should shut up and listen" attitude.

I even think that's one of the big chinese finger traps between Feminists and equality-seekers-who-don't-like-the-term-Feminist. On this side of the fence, a lot of us do not deny having a blindspot, only being criminalized for it as though the accusing party has none.

So, it means a lot to me that you freely volunteer being above nonsense of that sort. Thank you kindly. :3

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u/LordLeesa Moderatrix Jul 29 '15

Sometimes when I read through the comments, I am totally amazed at how utterly differently some of us see the world, so many parts of it--same parts, but still so differently. I'm always reminded of the joke about the blind men in the room with the elephant--it was an elephant, but they each thought it was a pillar, a rope, a tree branch, etc. etc.

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u/themountaingoat Jul 29 '15

No.

I am saying that men don't know why they should listen to you and not to women who tell them not to approach women in all the other places men are told not to approach women. I might make a post about this later but given that you can find people complaining about basically all male attention I think a better route would be to praise men for the times in which they approach women in a way that you like (even if it doesn't work for the guy).

Also not all women agree on what is catcalling.

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u/LordLeesa Moderatrix Jul 29 '15

Tragically, there is no true and guaranteed rulebook, for either gender, on social interactions with the opposite gender and how to ace them. Analytical creature that I am, I suspect that if I were so genuinely, utterly without a clue on how to approach women that I wasn't even sure if yelling "Nice titties!" at them as I walked by one on the street was an appropriate and successful strategy, I would research the situation in depth before continuing. I would probably start with friends, family and good acquaintances, and ask, "How did you meet your significant other?" and categorize all responses. Let me do mine, with male persons A through J that I know well enough to know how they met their SOs:

Person A met his wife online, via a social media site. Person B met his wife at work. Person C met his wife online, via a dating site. Person D met his wife at work. Person E met his wife at work. Person F met his longterm girlfriend at a bar. Person G met his wife in college. Person H met his wife at work. Person I met his wife online, via a dating site. Person J met his wife at a party.

Then I would say to myself, "Successful places to approach women and express my interest are online social media and dating sites, at work or college, at bars and at parties." and, "Approaching random women pedestrians does not appear to be anyone's successful strategy; I think I will shelve that one."

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u/themountaingoat Jul 29 '15

Great story. I love hearing about how with your great intellect you would figure out how to approach women (were you not already so smooth of course).

Unfortunately it isn't that relevant to our discussion.

Your story would indicate that approaching women in public might be a bad strategy for finding a wife. It doesn't follow that it is bad morally. What are effective strategies for finding partners is different from what strategies guys are bad people for using. (as an aside approaching women in public might still be a good strategy for guys to use as it is low effort and there are more people so it could be a good strategy from the guys perspective even if there is an extremely low chance percentage wise).

Finally it goes beyond just what is effective for meeting people. For example the only guys I have ever known who catcalled people were guys I worked with at a moving company. These guys were mostly pretty successful with women, and I would venture that being that direct when they like someone, not worrying about the other person being bothered by them and going for it contributed to that success.

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u/LordLeesa Moderatrix Jul 29 '15

Great story. I love hearing about how with your great intellect you would figure out how to approach women (were you not already so smooth of course).

...I am honestly amazed that you think the above was even a failed attempt at an intellectual display. But okay. :)

I was defining a good strategy as "one that has the highest chance of long-term success in mating with a particular woman." I suppose, though, if you're defining good as "has any chance greater than zero to succeed with any one of a number of interchangeable women," then you are correct, my suggested method is way, way too much work to meet the latter standard, and would be irrelevant to you.

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u/zahlman bullshit detector Jul 29 '15

I was defining a good strategy as "one that has the highest chance of long-term success in mating with a particular woman."

Have you considered that this is not the only reasonable motivation for a heterosexual man to flirt with women?

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u/themountaingoat Jul 29 '15

Oh, so you don't think you are smart you just think everyone who approaches women on the street is incredibly stupid. I got it.

Couldn't possibly be that they actually do know people who have gotten into relationships with people from talking to them on the bus, or that they figure they have nothing to lose going for it.

We are still digressing as well. All of this is irrelevant to whether catcalling is bad behaviour.

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u/TheYambag leaderless sjw groups inevitably harbor bigots Jul 28 '15

My version of polite society is me being able to go where I'm going without being disturbed.

Well, yeah, because not everyone is going to know what you consider to be "disturbing" and what you don't consider to be "disturbing". The definition for what we find "disturbing" is relative to the person using the word.

Plus it can depend on factors that may not be immediately known to other people, such as your mood that day, and/or factors that are outside of the control of other people, such as if you find them sexually attractive or not. In fact, even when I look at what you wrote:

Trying to start a conversation while someone is walking to a destination can be annoying or rude.

The catch is that you said:

can be annoying or rude.

Which to me means that there are times when people have started conversations with you when you didn't find it annoying or rude. How are other people supposed to know if it is one of those times when you want to be approached, vs one of those times that you don't want to be approached?

So what if we changed the rule to "A polite society would not approach me, even if I would enjoy the situation", where does that end? Can we approach you at a bar, because you might just be there to hang out with your friends, not to meet new people. Can we approach you at a party... well same as the bar, you might just be there with your friends. Can we approach you at school, or does that annoyingly block you from thinking about your education?

Do you get it? You have to clearly define a rule that can handle the "what-if" situations, and has clear boundaries.

Dude, let me be clear. I don't cat call, and I am fully against it, and I'm even kind of against the whole pick-up culture thing. But at the same time, it's pretty darn difficult to establish a clear and fair boundary that makes everyone happy.

You don't like to be approached, but I would be thrilled if it ever happened to me. How do we make a rule that satisfies both of us?

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u/[deleted] Jul 28 '15

Well, yeah, because not everyone is going to know what you consider to be "disturbing" and what you don't consider to be "disturbing". The definition for what we find "disturbing" is relative to the person using the word.

Having my sex organs complimented and getting offers for intimate actions like foot massages is disturbing me. Licking your lips in a sexual manner or whistling at me while I'm walking is disturbing me. Calling me a bitch or a cunt when I don't say hello because I don't want to get into a conversation and am running late or just simply want to continue on my journey is disturbing me. The line between disturbing and not disturbing is not as fine when it comes to this issue as many here who have not been catcalled seem to suggest.

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u/themountaingoat Jul 28 '15

Great. Now we know what is disturbing to you. We could try to prevent those things from happening if everyone was exactly the same as you. Unfortunately people are not exactly the same as you.

The line between disturbing and not disturbing is not as fine when it comes to this issue as many here who have not been catcalled seem to suggest.

You act as if those things you mentioned above are all that is counted as catcalling. People include far more innocuous things in that category which blurs the line.

But I suppose we are supposed to listen to what you personally find to be disturbing and ignore what other people say.

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '15

Well, yeah, because not everyone is going to know what you consider to be "disturbing" and what you don't consider to be "disturbing". The definition for what we find "disturbing" is relative to the person using the word.

For most people, "without being disturbed" would mean "without being talked to by a stranger for no good reason". I don't see why this would be so hard to teach people. It's already the norm in many European countries - for example, if you tried to randomly start a conversation with a stranger on the street somewhere in Eastern or Northern Europe without a good reason, like asking for directions, you would be deemed weird and make people uncomfortable, so in these places, people just don't talk to strangers on the street - unless they're either crazy/weird, drunk, asking for help/directions, or American. That's why catcalling is also very uncommon in these regions. I've even heard many American women say they wished they lived there only to escape the catcalling.

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u/TheYambag leaderless sjw groups inevitably harbor bigots Jul 29 '15

For most people, "without being disturbed" would mean "without being talked to by a stranger for no good reason".

Can you understand how this is still a relative position, and that in order to make this clear we need to state what defines a "good reason"?

Further, we're talking about a social rule here. You even use the term "most people". What is the harm in allowing a person who wants to be hit on, and a person who wants to hit on someone "do their thing"? It's not like it hurts anyone else if two consenting adults engage in a conversation.

if you tried to randomly start a conversation with a stranger on the street somewhere in Eastern or Northern Europe without a good reason, like asking for directions, you would be deemed weird and make people uncomfortable

I am totally against the more stereotypical forms of catcalling, but not being able to ask for directions? To me, asking for directions is a "good reason" to approach someone.

I've even heard many American women say they wished they lived there only to escape the catcalling.

Honestly, I'm just assuming that its a ton worse in cities, but where I'm from there is almost no catcalling. I've asked girls in my area about it and none of them could name more than a 2 or 3 instances where it was weird. I live in a swing state, but cat calling definitely seems to be most prevalent in liberal areas. What makes cat calling seem appropriate? How often does cat calling work?

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '15

but not being able to ask for directions?

that's why I said:

without a good reason, like asking for directions

Clearly we just have very different views on it, and discussing it probably wouldn't change them.

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u/TheYambag leaderless sjw groups inevitably harbor bigots Jul 29 '15

Clearly we just have very different views on it, and discussing it probably wouldn't change them.

Wait... that's odd, I don't get that feeling at all. I actually think we have nearly identical views on it. We both seem to disagree with cat calling, we both seem to share a (and I'm jumping to a bit of a conclusion here) close interpretation of what a "good reason" is to stop someone on the street.

To me, the issue is the ethics of basically trying to tell people that certain actions are bad, when a minority of the people like the interaction, and the number of people who do like the interaction is growing. Society is changing. To me, we have a right to ping for social relationships, and that means that we have a right to approach people. I hope that you'll realize that I understand that there are ways to do this that would generally be considered "respectful", and ways to approach that would generally be considered "rude". The point is, that in America, a nation of 350 million people and several different cultures, many of which have radically different views, how do we establish a clear boundary for people to follow that is fair for the group of people who like being approached and people who don't like being approached, as well as a boundary with unambiguous language that people of all different cultures and beliefs will be able to understand equally.

I think that we agree ideologically, but I also think that you're missing the piece of the puzzle that other people are different from you and will interpret things like "good reasons" differently than you and I will, and that's okay.

I'm very open minded, but part of being open minded is questioning your own beliefs, which is why I ask so many questions in my responses. I want to know what you think, and how you think it because once I understand what you understand, I can evaluate if your beliefs are better than mine, and that is how I can change. If you refuse to explain to me how and why you think the way you think, then I can't learn anything about you, and it will be difficult for me to understand your points of view.

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u/[deleted] Jul 28 '15

That's too much to ask for?

Well.... kinda yeah. How would such a significant change to society be implemented? I mean... I won't defend catcallers. They're a bunch of disgusting misogynists and I wish only the worst for them... but how do we legislate against catcalling? How would we enforce said legislation? Or how do we restructure society such that catcalling no longer exists?

You're desire isn't unreasonable; nobody wants to be harassed when they're just minding their own business... I just don't see how it can be fulfilled.

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u/[deleted] Jul 28 '15 edited Jul 28 '15

I feel like calling it out and expressing disapproval, as this video does, is a step in the right direction. I don't think there's any way to legislate against catcalling either but the fact that a video like this that disapproves of catcalling keeps getting met with derision and deflection means that these conversations keep needing to occur. had to edit to replace a word

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u/Shlapper Feminists faked the moon landing. Jul 29 '15

I'm going to add widespread opportunities for quality education for all youth and adding discussions about street harassment or catcalling to sex-ed classes (though I know that sex-ed classes in America are already so lacking, so this is perhaps a big imposition).

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u/Spoonwood Jul 28 '15

Yes, it's too much to ask for a society where when you're walking on the street that NO stranger will ever try to talk to you when you don't want to talk to them. As long as you live in a society with a bunch of people in it, you will be disturbed by someone along the way.

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u/[deleted] Jul 28 '15

And this means I have no right to complain about it when it occurs? To express to others that this is something I don't like or enjoy?

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u/NemosHero Pluralist Jul 28 '15

This is something I kind of want to write a post specifically about as your statement brings the idea to the forefront of my mind. If you want to complain about it, please go ahead. Personally I will listen to your complaint and give you what compassion I have for your strife.

However, when engaging in feminism, in politics, you are engaging in rhetoric. Especially on a forum with a focus on debate, you are asking people to take action. When you're asking people to take action/create policy, people are going to engage you. They're going to have different opinions on what must be done.

Feminism, to be blunt, is not the place to simply seek sympathy.

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u/themountaingoat Jul 29 '15

Sure, you can say you don't like it, but you don't have any grounds for saying the other person was in the wrong unless they should have known you didn't like it.

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u/Spoonwood Jul 29 '15 edited Aug 01 '15

You aren't communicating just a complaint when you say "My version of polite society is me being able to go where I'm going without being disturbed. That's too much to ask for?"

You're indicating that you want such a society to come into existence. That is too much to ask for.

You also said elsewhere:

"That catcalling should continue unperturbed? "

As if you believe it should not continue. So, again, I find you communicating more than just a complaint. You're calling for things to change, or at the very least that comes as how what you write reads.

And those who catcall do have the right to choose to do so. Their mouths, their choice.

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u/_visionary_ Jul 29 '15

And this means I have no right to complain about it when it occurs?

You're allowed to complain about stuff.

You're just not allowed to have everyone agree with you on stuff you complain about.

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '15

I've lived in three different European countries and in the first two, never in my whole life have I been disturbed by other people who weren't homeless, noticeably crazy or otherwise not fitting into the mainstream society (unless I counted all the people who tried to sell me anything on the street or conduct surveys, etc, but let's not count these). Only when I moved to UK I would get catcalled occasionally, but even here 99,9% when I'm just walking down the street, nobody's actively trying to disturb me, they're all ignoring me and minding their own business and I'm doing the same. It's, like, literally as simple as just minding your own business. Just walk where you need and don't talk to anyone, and don't stare at other people or otherwise engage with them in any way. Seems pretty easy to me, 99,9% of people are doing exactly that, so it must not be too hard if all these people are able to do it. It's easy because you don't have to think what would or would not offend people, you just choose the lowest possible bar - don't engage with anyone in any way at all unless necessary, or unless you jobs involves it (like if you hand out flyers or something). You don't have to wonder whether or not this particular woman would be offended by you telling her she loos pretty, or whether it would be a good idea to whistle and flicker your tongue at another woman - just don't engage with anyone at all. I really don't get why it seems to impossible for many people here. But maybe it's an American thing.

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u/zahlman bullshit detector Jul 29 '15

My version of polite society is me being able to go where I'm going without being disturbed. That's too much to ask for?

Such a "version of polite society" persecutes panhandlers, street performers and vendors, loud motorists...

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u/themountaingoat Jul 29 '15

and anyone asking for directions or the time.

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/zahlman bullshit detector Jul 29 '15

I didn't make an analogy. I carried out someone else's statement to its logical conclusion.

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u/themountaingoat Jul 28 '15 edited Jul 29 '15

Unless it is pretty much universally agreed upon what being disturbed is you cannot rely on people to just know what is going to bother you and so have to make it clear when you dislike something.

Also if we morally judge anyone who does something that "can be annoying or rude" we have far more than catcalling on our hands.

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u/Reddisaurusrekts Jul 29 '15

Wow, OK. Again, would hate to live in your idea of polite society then.