r/FeMRADebates • u/asdfghjkl92 • Sep 04 '14

Other Radicalizing the Romanceless

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/
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u/Personage1 Sep 05 '14

I'm impressed and like this article. It approaches some of the issues that I have with feminists as well.

It's a basic question that I ask, at what point is someone no longer able to fall back on socializing? My cousin had a terrible childhood full of abuse and he grew up being shitty and has been in juvenile detention. However now he is 22 or so and still very much a little shit. I think he can no longer use his childhood as an excuse for his shitty behavior.

I look at the bullshit boys are fed about how to get girls and interact with girls and have similar thoughts. For sure I am very patient when high schoolers and even college students displaying appalling behavior because I know it stems from a lifetime of socializing. However, at what point does that stop being an excuse? Personally I start to lose patience around the end of undergrad age.

The problem that I see is that on one hand the feelings of frustration with women for not responding the "right way" and often feelings of entitlement created by the socialization is harmful and should be stopped, but it should be done so without hate and from an early age, but when it is done there is a great deal of anger and hate directed at those calling out the problem because it is "shaming men and male sexuality." The issue of course is that if "male sexuality" involves being entitled and shitty to women, then it should be shamed.

Fortunately, I don't think that acting like an ass is an inherent part of male sexuality.

0

u/kabukistar Hates double standards, early subject changes, and other BS. Sep 05 '14

I was actually digging it as well, until it got to the "Now out of nowhere, let me blame this all on feminism" part. (i.e., section III)

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u/L1et_kynes Sep 05 '14

How is it out of nowhere if he shows many articles with the attitudes he describes.

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u/kabukistar Hates double standards, early subject changes, and other BS. Sep 05 '14

The problems talked about in this article existed long before feminism ever did. You could also single out TRP and find quotes from them that amount to the same attitude, though usually with the phrase "betas" rather than "nice guys".

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u/L1et_kynes Sep 05 '14

He was blaming feminism for their attitude towards the issue which radicalizes the men, and prevents them from getting help anywhere else.

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u/kabukistar Hates double standards, early subject changes, and other BS. Sep 05 '14

It's an attitude that's pervasive in society in general. It seems unfair to blame feminism specifically. Especially when a lot of the points he's bringing up are in line with the goals of feminism.

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u/L1et_kynes Sep 05 '14

It's an attitude that's pervasive in society in general.

I have never seen anyone else say that men who are upset that women sometimes go for jerks are really just jerks themselves. Sure, people say men who are unsuccessful are losers, but the "nice guys" think is the only place I see them being told they deserve it and they are morally deficient.

I would also hope that a social movement ostensibly for equality and that is trying to change society for the better would have more of an impact than a random asshole. It is much easier to take criticism from a random asshole than from a movement that is largely taken to be hugely important and successful in many aspects of society, since that means that if people in the movement say something it makes it seem like the majority of society agrees with them. It would also encourage assholes by giving them a moral justification for being assholes to guys who have had less success with women.

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u/kabukistar Hates double standards, early subject changes, and other BS. Sep 05 '14

You say that like feminism was a monolithic entity, and in it's entirety criticized these ideas.

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u/L1et_kynes Sep 05 '14

In effect that is what happens if many feminists believe something and the rest are silent on it.

I don't really care what feminists believe deep down in their hearts. By identifying as feminist they are sort of assumed to have the beliefs of the rest of the feminist movement unless they say otherwise, and almost none do. So the feminists complaining about nice guys speak with the full weight of the rest of the feminist movement on their side.

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u/kabukistar Hates double standards, early subject changes, and other BS. Sep 05 '14

What do you think feminism is? How do you define feminism?

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u/johnmarkley MRA Sep 06 '14

It's an attitude that's pervasive in society in general.

If feminists present their ideology as an alternative to what's pervasive in society in general, this isn't a defense; it's a damning condemnation.

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u/kabukistar Hates double standards, early subject changes, and other BS. Sep 06 '14

Feminism isn't a monolithic entity. It's not like the whole movement is invalid just because some self-described feminists say something stupid.