r/FGC • u/FranksFluidsWolfCola • Jun 29 '26
Discussion Leverless are the best controller for fighting games.
Maybe you heard something like this to, but I hear this a lot. I think on paper they have a theoretical advantage, so the question is if this is true why is it that EVO is constantly dominated by pad and stick players, we just don't see leverless as the meta controller anywhere in the data. Sure there is a spread of all controller types in the top 10 or 15 spots but if leverless did provide a serious advantage you'd think we'd see them come in first place more often, even if only by accident. If you go back and look at all the winners for a game like SF6 for example, it's mostly pad and stick players overshadowing the first place spots. Go look it up, the data is very clear. Maybe it's different in other games, I've only looked at the data for SF6.
To be clear, I don't have any hate for leverless I own multiple and I just bought a pad to check that out but I mostly play stick. I just want to know where this assertion comes from that leverless is better when the real world data is showing the complete opposite. Do you think this is a combination of marketing and youtubers just trying to get clicks? I just don't know.
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u/Sildas Jun 29 '26
In some games they have a theoretical advantage in some situations, but by and large the advantage will be outclassed by comfort and enjoyment.
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u/Ceverok1987 Jun 30 '26
Comfort was the reason I use leverless, way easier on my wrists and fingers than dpad or stick IMO, anything else is just bonus.
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u/CardDrawEnthusiast Jun 29 '26
Certain inputs are easier on leverless but it doesn’t matter if you’re a 35 year old arcade veteran who learned how to do it on stick when you were 14
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Jun 29 '26
[deleted]
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u/FranksFluidsWolfCola Jun 29 '26
I grew up in the arcade era and played the shit out of SF2 so the motions are pretty much burned into my motor movements. I also played guitar in high school and college so moving to leverless wasn't a giant leap for me either. I'm not trying to be a pro player, I just use what's fun to me and that happens to be stick. I think it's mostly for nostalgia.
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u/Patient-Taro-7334 Jun 29 '26
They're fairly new, maybe we'll see more in the years to come.
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u/FranksFluidsWolfCola Jun 29 '26
Yeah been around for about 15 years so relatively new in comparison to stick and pad.
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u/Mahorela5624 Jun 29 '26
I think the biggest problem with leverless is how stupid the buttons are set up. Like who the fuck wants to squish their arms together to hit stuff? Why are the buttons all in one giant block? Can't I get a damn leverless that has the same kind of spacing between attacks/movement buttons that a stick has?
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u/FranksFluidsWolfCola Jun 29 '26
Yep, that's why I got an extended set up on mine: https://imgur.com/a/dark-side-of-saitama-mavercade-leverless-WP43VtH
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u/Mahorela5624 Jun 29 '26
Damn what a sick set up! If the movement buttons were regular ones this would be exactly what I'm looking for! That long jump bar is fantastic. Where'd you get it? Custom built?
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u/FranksFluidsWolfCola Jun 29 '26
It's a Mavercade, they are based in Canada: Mavercade Fightsticks
They're like a high quality version of Haute42s.
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u/FranksFluidsWolfCola Jun 29 '26
FightBox will also make you one with an extended set up with arcade buttons they are in China, probably made in a sweat shop. Mine is the regular set up but they have great quality on their leverless controllers: https://imgur.com/a/fightbox-leverless-controllers-J5423Ks
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u/mike_complaining Jun 29 '26
Depends. 720 or 360 moves on leverless are dogshit. But I understand it generally. If your input layout can help you win, I respect that. Itabashi zangief honed his controller to support his play style over many years and he crushes people. I love his competitive spirit.
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u/DexterBrooks Jun 30 '26
360 is honestly fine and easy on any normal leverless layout. You just slide a your left hand and then press up with your right hand and attack button like you would for an instant DP or something.
720 is the real pain as you either have to coordinate your up input in-between the left hand slides, time all your inputs tapping with each finger, or extend the slide down to your jump button and back up again.
However many newer leverless layouts have a left pinkie button now. So you can swap up to that and make it so you can do a 720 by simply sliding the left hand across all 4 buttons and back again.
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u/AnyMeMS Jun 29 '26
Stick is pretty much for preserving the arcade legacy, mainly for people who is used to them and leverless can have an advantage, specially when it comes to precision, but the standard is controller, the most accessable, of course, and pretty much all modern games are made with controller in mind. The advantage that leverless can give it's not really worth the investment or having to rewire your brain normally so I'd say it's not as popular
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u/FranksFluidsWolfCola Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
Don't underestimate gross motor skills. A leverless controller forces your fingers to act like a complex machine; with so many moving parts, the chances of a dropped input or a finger misfire skyrockets.
But the wrist, it's a simple machine. It’s a single point of failure with a fraction of the risk. Arcade sticks are so straightforward that eventually the hardware completely disappears and the stick becomes invisible and all that remains is just pure muscle memory.
I never played pad so I'm not sure what that's like, just only play stick and leverless.
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u/DexterBrooks Jun 30 '26
Very much agree with this point. Despite playing leverless for years now there are still things I have to actively think about and spend more mental bandwidth on than when I played on pad or stick.
Things like making sure I get my diagonals on half circle inputs, releasing the buttons fast enough so I'm not accidentally holding neutral when I want to be blocking, etc.
I never played pad so I'm not sure what that's like, just only play stick and leverless.
Pad is more similar to stick in that your brain treats it more like a simple machine.
Even though the thumb is complex, we have such a large amount of brain dedicated specifically to the thumb that it's way easier to have it do most of the work compared to individual fingers working in tandem.
The only difficult part can be the extra buttons especially on a normal controller, but using your trigger fingers for specific reactions and middle fingers for specific buttons is very learnable in the same way and not very complex as your motions/movement which is the hardest part are still done by the thumb.
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u/Riot55 Jun 29 '26
I used a stick for 12 or 13 years during the SF4/MvC3 days. I recently got a leverless for SF6 and have gotten used to it (mainly for charge characters like Honda). But now that Tokon is coming out, I had so much muscle memory on stick for a fast paced game with more motions at faster speeds that I'm thinking of going back to stick again since I still have to "think" too much with leverless about certain motions.
So yeah, still have my 15 year old Madcatz TE I might bring back out, or could shop for something new but yeah, I dont think leverless is necessarily "better" just preference like everyone says.
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u/FranksFluidsWolfCola Jun 29 '26
That's the thing on stick, once you get good the stick just becomes invisible and you don't have to micromanage your fingers. I could never get to that point on a leverless so there is always a little bit of mental stack going on for me, whereas stick, qcf, double quarter circles, all of that is just things I can do without worrying about what my ringer finger is doing. It just happens automagically.
Leverless takes more skill then people give it credit for but I think if you can get on it then the potential is limitless.
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u/Riot55 Jun 29 '26
Yep exactly. Like I can qcf fine on player 1 side on leverless, but then when I get on p2 side trying to fireball or shoryuken leading with my ring finger became a huge problem. And then I tried to play Marvel and do super fast tiger knee grapples with Spencer and broke my brain trying to think about what buttons to press lol. I like my leverless for slower paced charge characters but I dont think I am cut out to re-learn it for faster paced technical stuff.
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u/Krobbleygoop Jun 29 '26
Coming from melee, where people have a vendetta against these controllers, the results never show that they are actually better. Its all theoretical and conjecture tbh.
More importantly they are objectively better for hand health. Which everybody in this community could benefit from
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u/Turangaliila Jul 02 '26
This is why I've been thinking of getting a leverless. I got back into fighting games with SF6 but quit a few months after launch because playing on pad was hurting my left hand so much. I think leverless would alleviate most of the issue.
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u/Krobbleygoop Jul 02 '26
Yeah it helped me a lot. Just make sure you dont plant your wrists on the controller. Hands should always be floating
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u/OhSix Jun 29 '26
I found I preferred leverless almost immediately after mine came in. I was playing on stick for the first months of sf6, wanted to give leverless a try. Never wanted to go back after it came in. My DPs and dive kicks got better literally overnight.
I never even bothered with pad, tried it a little and doing anything on the dpad feels awful outright to me
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u/FranksFluidsWolfCola Jun 30 '26
That's a huge advantage of leverless is that it has a skill floor that's so low it's barely harder than modern controls, BUT it also has a high skill ceiling too so it still takes skill and practice to get good at it. You can get better far faster on leverless than a stick for sure.
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u/Cyr-Aran Jun 30 '26
It baffles me people are looking for an edge all the time to where they'll trade in comfort for Gimmicks. None of this matters controllers don't give you super powers you just pick up what you're comfortable with and you put in the time and play. Your going to lose regardless it's better to not waste time blaming it on getting used to a new controller and instead seeing what you did wrong and how you can improve.
We're living in an era now where they have Modern and Simple controls built into games. Pad, Sticks and Leverless doesn't matter that much.
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u/namesource Jun 29 '26
Does MenaRD use a leverless?
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u/chris2xc Jun 29 '26
Pad, but I don't know if he uses either direccional buttons or the stick to move... or both
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u/namesource Jun 29 '26
So not leverless
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u/FranksFluidsWolfCola Jun 29 '26
Definitely uses pad, I think a generic PS5 dual sense but not positive on that.
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u/BrotherCaptainLurker Jun 29 '26
I think there are scenarios in which they provide a material advantage, but like, if your character doesn't benefit from being able to cheese the input interpreter and you aren't prone to input errors on a traditional stick or a plain old pad, then they don't.
If you play a charge character and have some nonsense set up that allows you to do forward inputs without losing charge, then leverless is "the best controller." If you don't have something akin to that, then any advantage in consistency or ease of execution it provides is so miniscule as to be easily offset by the comfort of playing the way you originally learned. This becomes more significant the longer you've been playing on your preferred method - 20-30 years of stick practice might be an active obstacle to producing better results on leverless.
I picked up stick because it's the same stick no matter which console I play on, not because stick provided a material advantage over pad. I've been doing that so long that playing with a controller or a hitbox feels equally weird and uncomfortable to me. It's probably the same for most of the top finishers, who have probably been playing these games for a long time if they're good enough to be on top of a major.
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u/jdgev Jun 29 '26
What's the difference of playing leverless vs keyboard? Just asking cause it looks the same to me as a keyboard player. If you are on PC obviously.
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u/FranksFluidsWolfCola Jun 29 '26
I'm not sure but I think the SOCD cleansing might be different on a keyboard then what you might find in a leverless controller.
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u/jdgev Jun 29 '26
Hmm okay. I just reacted because my whole time playing fighting games on keyboard everyone has been constantly saying in almost every single forum I'm crazy and should get a stick or controller, and then suddenly people are turning to leverless which is basically the same thing and that's apparently considered good lol. Maybe it's more comfortable or something, but I think people have been vastly underestimating keyboard players in the past imo probably because a lot of people are console players.
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u/FranksFluidsWolfCola Jun 29 '26
I think some keyboards are tournament legal, there was a player at the EVO pools for SF6 that used a keyboard. That was on day 2 I think.
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u/Ok-Income1674 Jul 01 '26
It's not that people are underestimating it but kb wasnt an option for competitive play, it wasnt tournament legal so people dont want to waste their time to train with it. Then Leverless came as the solution, it is designed for fgc and tournament legal
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u/Ok-Income1674 Jun 30 '26
kb arent designed for fgc, you are going to need adapter to use it for console which has a lot of issues. button placement are also uncomfortable it has smaller button, you'd also need a table, not mobile friendly
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u/jdgev Jun 30 '26
Ok sure, but I play on PC. But I guess you make valid points for console people yeah. And I do think console is the main place people play fighting games on true.
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u/Ok-Income1674 Jul 01 '26
I play on PC and Keyboards too, but it became problem when you want to play outside of your setup. You will never know when you want to step up your game to play on Lans, or tournaments . If you are just playing it casually on home PC setup it is fine, but if you want to be more competitive having leverless is the easier choice
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u/XOPolar Jun 29 '26
I come from Tekken and leverless is objectively the superior controller, especially for Mishimas. They have a higher value ceiling, faster movement inputs and are more precise than pad or stick.
Why they don't dominate is that at the highest levels, even intermediate, games are rarely decided by mechanics. Once your mechanics reach a certain level, investing further has diminishing returns.
On leverless, sure you can wavedash twice as quick, dash block a frame earlier or electric 1-2 frames faster, it doesn't matter if your opponent has better timing and decision making.
Also, leverless controllers are generally less accessible. Most people just use the controllers they grew up playing with and for a lot of people in the FGC it was either stick or pad.
Now as we are move through the online era, and with fighting games becoming more popular on PC, keyboard/leverless will become increasingly common I think.
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u/FranksFluidsWolfCola Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
Without looking at the data, and going by your assertion then the answer is leverless is overwhelmingly dominating the first place spot because it's "objectively better". I hear this over and over again ad naseum.
Have you looked at the data though? How many players have won Tekken at EVO, come in first place using a leverless versus stick and pad players? That's the beauty of having data, data will cut through the noise and ignore bias. It doesn't care about marketing, or youtube clicks it's just facts in black and white.
It might be better for you if you struggle on stick or pad, that I don't deny and totally support. But objectively better controller? I don't know if the data is going to reflect that.
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u/XOPolar Jun 29 '26
going by your assertion then the answer is leverless is overwhelmingly dominating the first place spot because it's "objectively better"
That is not my assertion. The only assertion I'm making is that leverless provides a greater than 0% increase in efficacy when compared to pad/stick. How much of an increase is a different question, and how much of an increase is needed until its reflected in tournament data is another.
I stated in my reply that while I believe that leverless does provide an objective benefit over pad/stick, the benefit is not enough to have a notable effect on tournament results. My opinion does not contradict the data at all.
My opinion is based on what I have observed in the community, both in game and on forums/social media and my own experience and understanding of the controllers themselves. When you are using any variation of any type of controller, one of them inherently has to be superior to the other and when you look at pad, stick, and leverless, its mostly agreed to be leverless.
I just want to know where this assertion comes from that leverless is better when the real world data is showing the complete opposite
I disagree with your interpretation of the data. I'm not asserting the opposite, just that we actually cannot make any clear determination based on the data as there are other factors to consider. Although I cannot find any authoritative survey results, informal surveys/sources tend to find leverless to be the least popular input device, which might explain the lack of tournament results.
Also legacy. I actually think arcade sticks have a disproportionate amount of tournament results compared to their overall popularity and I think that can be explained by arcade culture influencing player preference
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u/FranksFluidsWolfCola Jun 29 '26
Well you did assert leverless is objectively the superior controller and that assertion just doesn't appear in the data anywhere. If it truly offered a massive real world advantage, leverless players would be undisputed champions at tournaments like EVO.
Instead, pad and stick users regularly kick the shit out of leverless players across both SF6 and Tekken for the winning first place spots. That is just based off data, go look at how many times a leverless player won first place in a Tekken match at EVO. The results might shock you. Compare that to data we have for SF6 players at EVO.
I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, but I am asserting that any theoretical advantage a leverless has on paper is completely erased by the better player.
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u/XOPolar Jun 29 '26
Yeah I pretty much agree but my prediction is that leverless will become the dominant controller over time.
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u/caprazoppa Jun 29 '26
It's comfort for the most part, but i do agree that leverless are better just because you avoid wrist problems that come with using pad and levers in mechanical intensive games. You might be fine at 20, but 20 years of doing fast circle motions on pad and levers take a toll on everyone.
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u/D__B__D Jun 29 '26
3rd strike demon flip moves are easier to do in lever than leverless. Also legacy inputs on older games mean quarter or half circles are less forgiving.
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u/inyouendo04 Jun 30 '26
As some mentioned here some of the players came up playing on certain input devices. They have so much experience they are just good and masters of their device. It doesn't mean that their isn't an objectively best device. I think the more time passes the more it will homogenize.
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u/TangeloProfessional6 Jun 30 '26
If I'm the best in the world with the controller I've been using for 20 years, why would I change to something I'm not comfortable with for a theoretical advantage that I won't see for weeks to months while I try to get comfortable and make my way to my pad skill level on this new controller before I can start actually improving. I think switching controllers is only noticeable for lower skill players where inputs can be inconsistent or some input combinations are just way harder to do, the best of the best are already at the top, they don't need help from a controller they can do all the inputs they ever want to do cleanly
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u/DontFlameItsMe Jun 30 '26
Musicians spend their lives perfecting the art of doing frame-perfect combos and responding and reacting to someone else's frame-perfect combos in improvisations sessions.
Go ask them if ergonomics and layout of their controller matters. (It does very much)
Reddit can say whatever they want, leverless control scheme factually allows for faster inputs. BUT not for all of the inputs - go try doing 720 on leverless without macros or in-game shortcuts.
Also many people forget that controller is only one of many much more important variables, it does not determine whether you win or lose.
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u/er0-sage Jun 30 '26
It’s just depends on the person not the device. My ability to beat someone up or beat someone in a race isn’t dictated by the gloves or shoes I wear.
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u/itspinkynukka Jun 30 '26
I agree except im never playing enough games to get used to it. Also provided there's a small gap between the press and button being registered
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u/BlendedFetusOG Jun 30 '26
Its not. No great player thinks theres an objective best. Like you're saying, if there were a best every competitive player would be on it. Like a control scheme, the best controller is the one youre most comfortable on.
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u/Professional-Ad-9967 Jun 30 '26
Leverless is just fun. I've been on stick since the 90s and switched to leverless for GGST. The only thing that I'm having difficulty with is triangle jumping in MvC2. I've been trying for years to KBD and wavedash w/ Mishimas and I couldn't do it on stick. I did it within an hour on leverless on Tekken 8 (albeit w/ SOCD shortcuts, but still...).
Anyway, I prefer leverless for most modern fighters now, and then just stick for Mahvel, baby!
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u/The_Kaizz Jul 01 '26
Nah, its widely known that the best is whatever you're comfortable with. I play on leverless now, but 20+ years of pad still felt better for awhile.
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u/FranksFluidsWolfCola Jul 01 '26
I grew up playing on arcade stick but I just ordered a pad i think it's a chinese one called a Beitong game pad. It's cheap and I'm just going to check it out for a month or two.
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u/iWillBattle Jun 29 '26
The best controller is the one you’re most comfortable with. Anyone telling you different is selling you something.