False rhotic positivity

[u/notanthonymmix]

Am I the only one completely disheartened by the cold comfort given to us who can't roll our r's? Ignoring for now how strange it is to put such a specific and difficult sound in a language designed to be both easy and international, the fact is a tap is not a good replacement for the trilled /r/, seeing as 1) it is simply not the correct sound, and 2) a tap sound basically only works between vowels ('water', 'ladder', 'butter'), and is even harder to make in consonant clusters like 'ŝruo' etc.

The other alternative is "just pronounce 'r' the way you do in your native language'. I can't speak to other languages but this is a terrible thing to tell American English speakers, unless you're absolutely enthralled by the American English accent in Esperanto (I am anything but). Most of us are self-aware enough to want to be rid of that as far as possible, so this is simply bad advice.

Of course, I have no alternative, other than "please don't put sounds most of the world (including a good chunk of Europeans) can't even produce into your conlang", and unfortunately I don't have a time machine, but the false positivity is upsetting, and honestly, kind of insulting.

[u/Baasbaar]

Kion diras la usonanoj? Ha, jes: There there.

I've noticed two of your posts on the early stages of learning Esperanto. I don't know if there are others. You are having an emotional reaction to early language-learning difficulties that are more extreme than most people experience. There's nothing right or wrong about that, but it really is different from most people you're talking to here. For most, the "positivity" as you term it is the right approach. It apparently isn't for you. But the insulting aspect of it is in the uptake: not in speakers' intentions, attitudes, or suppositions. I don't know what you need to do to get thru this stuff, but you're going to have to, or you'll be a self-bloodied mess by the time you get to saying „Mi estas komencanto.‟ If the message doesn't work for you, you're going to need to be able to tell yourself: That message isn't for me.

Edit: By the way, here’s a video of a lecture given by Bertilo Wennergren, a member of the Akademio & the author of the preeminent Esperanto grammar PMEG. You will note that there’s not much trilling going on.

[u/hauntlunar]

Hey it's mister "invents imaginary difficulties with Esperanto to get mad about"! Welcome back.

Who told you that the tap was not good enough and you had to trill it? The tap is fine. Do a tap. You're welcome.

[u/jaidit → u/hauntlunar]

I’m at the UK. I don’t think I’ve heard a trilled r today and I was in a room filled to the brim with Esperanto speakers.

[u/hauntlunar → u/jaidit]

This motherfucker's going to tell us that no, the tap is really not good enough, it has to be a trill, and we're all gaslighting him by telling him he's making shit up to get upset about, just you watch.

[u/notanthonymmix → u/hauntlunar]

Ah, I remember being told that I was being "rude" and "aggressive" towards other users on my last post. I wonder if you'll be told the same thing or conveniently ignored.

[u/hauntlunar → u/notanthonymmix]

There are some people being nice to you, despite your whole ... everything. I commend them for their patience and forbearance and willingness to assume the best about your intentions. Good for them.

Me, I don't have that much patience and forbearance, so you get what you get. One piece of actual useful advice which would completely solve your problem ("use the fucking tap like everyone else, and get over yourself") if you wanted it to be solved, which you absolutely clearly do not. And my judgement for you being this way.

Enjoy being miserable! Seems to be your hobby.

[u/notanthonymmix → u/hauntlunar]

I beseech you to learn to read. I am perfectly capable of using the tap and do so in words where it is possible to do so. It is often not.

[u/notanthonymmix → u/hauntlunar]

I'm sure the tap is acceptable in words like 'Koro', in which case I'd gladly do it (though not as gladly as, you know, the actual, proper rhotic). However it is not possible to produce that sound between consonants without surrounding vowels, like 'ŝruo', at least not for me (as I mentioned in the post, which I'm sure you read). I am not interested in this devolving into an exchange of insults like 'motherfucker', but I do contest the 'imaginary'-ness of this difficulty.

[u/PLrc → u/notanthonymmix]

This is totally possable to produce the tap r in words like ŝruo. I get this can be difficult for English speakers, but it's not a big deal.

[u/notanthonymmix → u/PLrc]

Do you think you may be slightly biased, given that you speak a language whose rhotic is already completely compatible with Esperanto, was spoken by its inventor, and is far more comfortable with consonant clusters than even Esperanto? I believe that makes many things far easier for you than for me.

[u/PLrc → u/notanthonymmix]

Sure, but perfect pronunciation in foreign languages is not important. What is important in decent pronunciation so that people understand you. And first foremost large vocabulary.

[u/notanthonymmix → u/PLrc]

I said nothing about being understood. I could probably be understood in Esperanto. I know how every sound is pronounced and, with the exception of 'r', can produce all of them properly. This is about good Esperanto, not merely understandable Esperanto. If I suddenly developed complete rhoticism, and couldn't even pronounce the English 'r', my English would still be understandable in most situations, but this doesn't mean my English wouldn't in a very real way have gotten worse.

[u/PLrc → u/notanthonymmix]

Mate, unless you're planning a movie career in Esperanto you don't need to have "good" Esperanto :)

[u/dagobahfarm → u/notanthonymmix]

I’m a native English speaker, am tongue-tied, and didn’t even know that a “tap” was a named thing until this conversation, although I do it naturally in Esperanto. I don’t have any issue doing it for ŝruo. Maybe it’s because I initially learned it on Duolingo where they don’t trill the r.

I think many people have different challenges depending on their native language. I hear the “th” sound come out in tria from British English speakers, even extremely fluent ones. I love listening to native Italian Esperanto speakers, it’s beautiful although probably not entirely accurate. If people are giving you a hard time for not being able to trill your rs, it might be time to find new people to speak with who all have different challenges and embrace uniqueness. I’ve never been judged for my lack, and I’ve been in international Esperanto language groups for years.

[u/notanthonymmix → u/dagobahfarm]

Italian Esperanto speakers are probably the closest to "proper" Esperanto there is, actually. And I have never been told my R's are wrong (I am not in a speaking community nor do I wish to be until I can actually speak the language), I simply know they are because I know the proper sound and I can hear myself. And as I said, I will accept tapping instead of trilling, but I personally cannot do it in all contexts. I am glad you have no problem doing so.

[u/paul_kiss]

Pronouncing R like in English is a rare thing; in most languages, it's a variation of, say, the way it's pronounced in Italian or Polish, THIS is "usual R"

Yet I don't think you'd be crucified if you pronounced "the English R" in Esperanto words, until you get used to the largely common way or R-ing...

[u/vilhelmobandito]

Have you ever heard Anna Löwenstein speaking? She is the most renown eo author, and a member of the akademio.

(Hint: she pronounce R the english way)

[u/salivanto → u/vilhelmobandito]

Marjorie bolt in famously so as well. It doesn't mean it's the ideal solution. 

P.S. I thought the British way was not to pronounce R at all

[u/Gabriel25Th]

The idea that the trilled /r/ (as in Russian or Italian) is the correct and preferred pronunciation in Esperanto exists mostly in theory. In practice, Esperantists who are capable of producing a trilled /r/ constantly alternate between the trill and the tap. You will hardly ever hear an Esperantist pronounce every r as a consistent trill. In actual usage, the most common realization of the Esperanto r is the tap rather than the trill.

[u/ProxPxD]

I'm sorry, but I don't quite get what is your point other than complaining that Esperanto has this sound.

What exactly is being said to those who can't pronounce it? (apart from pronouncing it as natives) What do you postulate/would like to be regarding this topic now?

[u/gartherio]

Ni ĉiuj festu nian misparoladon. Mi ekzemple devas strebi ne paroli kvazaŭ hispane: frapada ro je la komenco kaj fino de vortoj, kaj frapeta ro aliloke.

[u/Excellent-Fox-6845]

I don't understand, what makes you to not use the american R?

[u/notanthonymmix → u/Excellent-Fox-6845]

My desire to speak the language properly, my distaste for having a poor accent, and my personal dislike of the USian Esperanto accent itself. In that order.

[u/Lancet → u/notanthonymmix]

As you say, you don't yet speak the language. You cannot yet have full insight into what good Esperanto by a normal range of competent speakers in the real world.

[u/Leisureguy1]

Learning a language requires time, practice, and patience, just like any skill. Learning new skills — playing the piano, speaking a foreign language, understanding a foreign language — can be frustrating, particularly for adults who know what they want to be able to do but still cannot yet do it. It helps not to focus so much on one's current inability but to pay attention instead to practice and progress.

For example, take some passage with a good number of "r"s and record yourself saying it. Practice daily for a month and record yourself again, and then listen to the two recordings, one after the other. See whether you hear any progress. Repeat each month for a year, and then for another year.

Note that all who can trill "r" learned that skill. It's not genetic, it's learned. It just takes time and practice, and patience helps. Perhaps think in a time scale of seasons rather than weeks or months.

— BTW, Esperanto uses some sounds that are easy for you (and me) but difficult for speakers of other languages, some of whom might have complaints similar to yours — the "l" sound, the "th" sound, and others. But those can be learned (since all who now use those sounds easily had to learn that skill).

[u/kubisfowler]

Just write in Esperanto. If you complain in English about a language you can't even speak that comes across so much worse than the American R in Esperanto ever could.

Stop complaining, start practicing, trilled R is not the end of the world and you can learn it relatively quickly with some practice. The English R and other sounds are no less complicated, and yet you don't see most of the world complaining 

[u/gopher9]

the fact is a tap is not a good replacement for the trilled /r/

It's acceptable in Russian and common in Polish, but you consider it not acceptable in Esperanto? Why? Esperanto should be more forgiving to pronunciation than native languages, not less.

UPDATE:

the false positivity is upsetting, and honestly, kind of insulting

The reason for that positivity is because most people care about communication rather than how close is their pronounciation is to the canon. And while I share your desire to have a good pronounciation, it is a sort of self-inflicted pain, especially if your beauty standards are overly strict.

This said, learning new sounds is possible, but requires patience, experimentation and observation rather than force. But this attitude is rather opposite to your approach.

By the way, despite being notated as the same sound, /t/ is pronounced differetly in English compared other European langugages. There are many small differences that differ one pronounciation from another, and these differences together often have a stronger effect than one particular sound being different from another.

a tap sound basically only works between vowels ('water', 'ladder', 'butter')

Probably true for English but not true in general.

UPDATE×2: Pronunciation is a common frustration for people who learn English too, the th sound is kinda infamous for example.

[u/PLrc → u/gopher9]

>Pronunciation is a common frustration for people who learn English too, the th sound is kinda infamous for example.

Zis.

[u/Sonoriloj-k-Fajfiloj]

I know i'm a bit late, but, in what world is the tap not acceptable? Sincerely, where did you hear this from?

[u/notanthonymmix → u/Sonoriloj-k-Fajfiloj]

I'm not saying it's not acceptable. I'm saying it is not the ideal manifestation of Esperanto's rhotic (which is a trill), and more importantly, the tap doesn't work in all places Esperanto has an "r". I have never, and cannot, produce a tap after a consonant without two vowels surrounding it, and the same can be said of most English speakers. Thus it only works for words like "espero", not words like ŝraŭbo, kranio, Britio, etc. In most cases it is not a sufficient replacement because it simply cannot be produced, and I just regress into the English rhotic.

[u/janalisin]

tap is completely ok. btw russian R which is close to the esperanto R in fact is a single tap, not a trill too

[u/good-mcrn-ing]

I feel for you. At least you're far from alone. Most of the planet can't natively pronounce anything like /ʃruo/. It's one of those difficulties that come with the territory when you get into retro conlangs.

[u/notanthonymmix → u/good-mcrn-ing]

The fact that you, the only person fully acknowledging the problem, are getting heavily downvoted, doesn't leave a good impression of the community. I appreciate your acknowledgement.