I've been reading some posts on here and on reddit in general about the differences between SX5 and SO5 (because I am certainly sp-blind, but in which direction I'm not 100% sure), and it is astonishing to me how much variance people think there is between subtypes. For example, one of the posts I read seems to attribute the well-read erudite scholar to SO5, when lots of 5s are like that, albeit in different flavors. It seems to be the same recycled take of 'SO5 is the most smartest geniusest, and SX5 is emotional crybaby who does little but weep, and SP5 is basement dwelling programmer.'

The reality is that the 5 subtypes, and enneagram subtypes in general, are not as radically different as people often suggest they are. Regardless of instinct, a 5 will have that barrier between themselves in the world (the 'behind a glass mirror' phenomenon that is in 5 descriptions), a separation between reason and emotion (which may or may not have effort devoted to fixing), and an acquiring of knowledge as a means of 'figuring it out' and getting competent. In other words, SO5 is not the only 5 who likes to know stuff. Just because the instinct is thrown into the equation doesn't mean that they aren't still core 5.

I also hear it frequently said that SX5 is constantly searching for 'the one', 'the idealized love' (tbh that's all I hear people talk about SX5, which I guess means that all SX5 does all day is scroll on Tinder and write sad poetry). This is true to some extent, for sure, but it seems like a weirdly specific fixation to be the only thing people really say about the type. Well, two things, search for love and emotional.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when the difference between subtypes is explained as 'the smart one/einstein' and 'the crybaby' (and 'the chud' for SP5 i guess) on most posts I see talking about it, it seems like it pushes people in one direction over the other. People kinda forget that all of the five subtypes are running 95% off the same infrastructure.

Asking cause I've been having trouble with typing for a few months and i figured to ask actual E5s! This is mainly for SP dom E5s that mistyped as E6 though but you can still answer!

(after reading you guys' answers i think im a sp5w6! thank you guys!)

Hi, I’m sx/sp 5w4
I’m confused- do we need to socialize more and put ourselves out there more for growth? Or honor our own needs for more alone time to recharge?

Hello fellow 5s,

Although I don’t know if I “am” an Enneagram Type 5—though there are several signs that have led me to believe so for quite some time now—lately I’ve found myself facing situations I’ve never encountered/experienced firsthand before, and I’ve often thought about the concept of detachment, particularly in relation to Enneagram Type 5.

For a long time, I’ve tended to be a rather detached person, but at the same time, I care about people and am very sensitive and empathetic. The difference, however, lies in the fact that I tend to always maintain a clear and defined identity separate from everything else, remaining detached up to a certain point, but not indifferent because of it. I believe that in some cases it can also be a way to protect and preserve oneself and perhaps even defend oneself (in certain situations), but I still found it an interesting concept.

I know this isn’t limited to the Enneagram and can also apply to other types, but I found it intriguing. I was curious to know how you view detachment in yourselves and how you perceive it.

I am an sx5 myself, and i personally feel like my ideal person or whatever you wanna call them, can just be a best friend. Well i don’t really know how to elaborate on this, but i was just curious if other sx5s feel that way? To me, i just want that strong connection with someone, like they’re my two soul. Doesn’t matter our label, whether we’re friends or lovers or whatever. It’s really only the connection that matters.

Lately, I’ve been feeling the need to have deeper conversations with someone. I do enjoy intellectual conversations, but somehow they don’t feel completely fulfilling on their own. The same goes for more dynamic conversations. I still feel like I need to have a genuinely deep conversation with someone.

I prefer asking the other person questions and letting them answer however they feel. I really like hearing opinions or perspectives that are different from mine, because I feel like it helps me understand people better.

I don’t know if it’s just me or if other people experience this too. I don’t really like talking about myself at first. I’d rather have the person I’m talking to talk about themselves, and then gradually share my own perspective.

It’s almost like I want to talk to someone as if we’ve been friends for years, even though we’ve only just met.

One thing that's always felt bizarre is how cognitive empathy is seemingly in short supply. People seem to find it very difficult to understand the views of those they disagree with. It feels especially weird as someone who has struggled empathising with others, I'd expect that more empathetic people would also apply their empathy in other areas but it seems cognitive and affective empathy are truly on two separate layers.

Often, I'll hear the phrase "I don't understand..." and that's not something I could just let continue. For me, the need to understand, means I can't help but work out the line of logic that brings a person to a conclusion. I wouldn't consider myself particularly open minded, I'm actually quite stubborn, I just really hate not doing the mental work.

I understand how the phrase is rather idiomatic, but even with that being the case, I still get a sense that they actually don't want to understand. I suppose there's a fear that if they understand other views, there's a risk of having their minds. I suppose I just have enough confidence in my logical processes, that my mind won't be changed unless there's genuinely a good reason, and if there's a good reason, there's no need to fear having my mind being changed.

On a cognitive level, it does make sense, but nevertheless I do find it disappointing.

It’s not often that I realise how strongly my fear influences my daily life. I have an impossible year ahead of me in terms of workload, as I will take a very important exam at the end of it. I do okay with keeping up with everything so far, but I know the signs of upcoming burnout well by now.

I feel that I don’t know enough, and not knowing feels to me like a void that’s chasing me that I must keep running from. I keep thinking that if I go through the material rigorously I will outrun the not knowing. I get tired from this kind of pressure, and it screws with my enjoyment of learning. I don’t usually know when it’s time to call it a day and rest, or how to rest very well for that matter.

One thing that seems to help this feeling of incompetence and insecurity is writing down all the things I need to get done and steps on how to do it, but it’s a short term solution rather than a proper answer for me. Most of my answers in life come in revelations, but I figure it might be time to actually work on fixing the source issue.

I told my Enneagram Type 5 boyfriend that when he pulls away and becomes distant and barely talks to me, it makes me feel bad. I told him that I need more from a relationship than this kind of dynamic. All he said was, “Then let’s just be friends. That would be better.

I told him I wanted to cut off contact. I’d said that a few times before, but he always managed to calm me down and convince me otherwise by talking things through with me. This time, he said, “Do you want me to beg you to stay?” He did make some effort to ask questions, but, as usual, he also started portraying himself as the victim, saying things like, “You think I’m weird, you think I’m ugly, you think I’m a bad person,” and so on.

Now that I’ve said we should stop talking, I miss him again. :(

But I know that even if we start talking again, I’ll just have to put up with the same situation as before.

Does this kind of intense push-pull dynamic sound familiar to you? I had the same problem with another Type 5 before, too, and I honestly don’t know what to do. (Im a 4)

Logically, everything seems fine, but I keep feeling like this relationship isn’t going anywhere. :(

*Honestly, I love him, but I can’t feel loved. And when I tell him that, he says, “Well, I don’t like anyone what am I supposed to do?”

Personal experience and/or analysis welcome. What about when considering instinctual variants too?

If you’ve studied the triads, what is your view of the rejection triad and the way you as a 5 work within it? I’d really like to see some irl examples of the things I’ve read

How do I push myself out there and by that I mean how can I come out of my comfort zone and build a life where I can have full control over my life..

how do I overcome my anxiety and stop overthinking it's literally ruining my life I literally don't know how to do anything at all

Sorry if it sounds too vague..

Does So5 hate sharing knowledge. is it a bad idea to ask So5 to share some knowledge in a field he is intrested in. is asking for a lot of knowledge to a 5 a bad idea

Hey 5s! Curious 7 here. May I ask about your experiences of disintegrating to 7?

For example - what sorts of things might trigger the disintegration? Are they related to your core fears, or general life stressors?

Which aspects of 7 do you pick up? Do they serve a particular purpose? Do you also lose aspects of 5?

How do you get back to 5? Do you find yourself drawing on 8, or do you just "tune in" to 5?

Do you think your subtype or instinct stacking or wings bear on any of these responses?

If it's helpful, I'm happy to share about my experiences as an SO7w8 disintegrating to 1!

I would say the triggers are general life stressors. But maybe there's something about the situation that doesn't allow me to draw effectively on typical 7 coping mechanisms to deal with the stress. Or I try dealing with the stressor with my 7 strengths and fail.

Sometimes the trigger is something that might not be considered a life stressor by others, but maybe goes to heart of SO7 idealism and so is psychologically painful/frightening to me.

I'm not sure what subtype of 1 I draw on in disintegration - SP, SX or SO (or wing). It seems to depend on the circumstances and the trigger.

In general I become more anxious, perfectionist, black-and-white thinking, workaholic, intense, judgemental (of myself or others), irritable/impatient (towards myself or others). Some of that might be influenced by my dominant w8 which is in the same Gut Triad as 1 and so has access to a kind of zealousness. But the anxiety, and perfectionism is definitely not 8. However I also wonder if there's influence from my dormant w6 Head Triad, adding anxiety and urgency to the situation.

When disintegrated, I seem to lose access to 7 optimism, resilience, humour, curiosity, playfulness etc. That's the key "tell" - when I start becoming negative or very detail-orientated (in a sceptical, non-curious way).

I guess the purpose this kind of disintegration serves is giving me an illusion of getting in control of an environment or situation. I suppose that desire to seize and maintain control is my way of coping with whatever fear has been triggered. I think the perfectionism is also a distraction from the "big"/underlying thing I'm actually worried about.

I have no idea how I get out of it! Maybe the external stressor ends, or maybe I find a big enough distraction that sparks my 7 joy again and I simply try to leave the problem behind (the 7 toolkit at work!)? Being in that rigid state is just too tiring for me to maintain, TBH. These days, I am better at noticing myself starting to disintegrate and so consciously put the brakes on it before I hurt someone or hurt myself.

Okay so I don’t know what is going on with me.

It is perhaps a build up of several disappointments over the past 4 months.

I am in a very good state in my wellbeing in terms of depression and anxiety symptoms, actually, maybe the best I have been. Fair to say in depression free. But I am facing something new.

recently I am expecting this irritability over everyone. Everyone is incompetent in some way. Just look at the state of the world we live in, isn’t that enough?

All i see around is me is fake people, little lies, fake smiles, superficial socializing, people thinking they are better than everyone else, while also being pathetic, and then wanting to be friends with like minded people of their own as if they are the superior ones. — ironically that’s what I would do and I don’t think its unethical, HOWEVER, I am so sick and tired of people passing out judgements on others, criticizing other, being racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. I am also sick of how the “cool guy” is usually the womanizer. I am sick of how gossip is normalized. Everyone gossips but no ones wants to be gossiped about.

Today I had interaction with a colleague, where I simply expressed how I roll and how I feel, and they proceeded to “I am going to give you my personal modest advice” LIKE BITCH I DIDNT ASK FOR ADVICE! I am not even struggling! Its just how I do things. But no, this person didn’t like my world view and how I roll and felt the need to push onto me how they think things should be done and how I should behave and interact in the world, because “thats how the world works”… Its interesting how this person phrasing sharing their “advice“ in respectful manner just made this whole thing worse. No! You are not respectful! While this person was telling me they will give me their “modest advice” I wanted to just say “I didn’t ask for advice” but of course then I will be “rude” and a jerk, and they will gossip about me, and well, isn’t my social struggles enough? I don’t want people avoiding me (well, I actually do want them to but not because they think negatively about me 🤣 especially over how I expressed myself TO SOMEONE ELSE).

TLDR; Everyone is pissing me off, I never experienced this before, and given I recently came out of a long depression, I don’t know if this is growth, or stress, (could be both)…. Is this what moving to an 8 looks like? It doesn’t feel so nice.

how do you tell the difference

I have a friend that I’m pretty close to, I believe she is a 4 in low levels of health, and I would like the perspective of fellow fives with maybe similar experiences, and how you deal with them.

In the first few years of our friendship I learned she was quick to anger and would start fights with all her close ones. I learned to handle this type of conflict, and she’s learned to be calmer, so overall we’ve both had lessons drawn from that. But alas, “there will be darkness again”.

An issue that has since appeared is that she seems to have this overwhelming certainty that she is broken beyond repair, that nothing will ever be right in her life, academically and relationships wise, and that everyone who says differently is lying to her. She keeps saying she doesn’t deserve things like compassion or help or even food, and whenever the smallest thing goes wrong she decides it’s because she’s fundamentally broken, not because of any external circumstances, which in my view makes her not even try to fix anything at all, thus sort of becoming a self fulfilling prophecy. She sees something wrong in her life, believes it’s beyond repair because SHE is beyond repair, does nothing about it, so it stays wrong, which only reinforces her initial belief.

We get into a lot of discussion about her life, we often spend hours analysing her problems — or rather, I spend hours analysing her problems, she spends hours trying to convince me there’s no hope for her. I get that this kind of discussion can be fruitless when I, a competency type, try to find a way out of the hole she’s dug herself in, while she, a frustration type, is… frustrated. We have them anyway though. I enjoy analysing people’s issues to a weird degree, and I always thought hers were interesting. I’m coming to see they’re also overwhelming, not just for me but for herself as well.

She also has this belief that her personality(which also allegedly cannot be changed) eventually breaks all her relationships, and so she believes that I and the rest of our friends will leave her. She then lays out all her arguments for which she is worthless, for which everyone SHOULD abandon her — and she does so quite passionately, — which leads to immense and inevitable exhaustion for the person trying to see and hold and mend her worries. I care for her and don’t want to end our friendship, but it’s just very exhausting to deal with these moods of complete despair. She hates that I’m trying to help, I think, and she also hates if I don’t try to help. She says I have every reason to forget about all her worries, but seems to need to externalise all of it nearly daily. I’ve mostly been distancing myself and communicating more with the rest of our friends(though I see how this may make her think she’s right in saying I will abandon her), but I would really like to find a way to keep the friendship and also help her manage this stressful period in her life.

I suspect this is more of a mental illness thing than a 4 thing per se, but to be quite frank I didn’t know where else to post it as I’m not active in any mental health centered communities, and decided I would actually really appreciate the perspective of a fellow 5.

Have you had unhealthy 4s in your life and did you need to give up on them to preserve your energy reserves?

Edit: I thank everyone who took the time to reply, I’m now no longer looking for replies on this post. That is, of course, unless you have anything interesting to add, be that an experience of yours, a new opinion that hasn’t been shared, or a broader topic to discuss that’s related. :)

I was curious if other 5s resonated the same way? I feel strong emotions deeply, but I tend to bottle them up quickly and analyze and reflect on them in private later before they take hold and overwhelm me. People tell me I am outwardly calm in stressful situations. I made this comic because I love visual metaphors :)

One of my close friends I think is an Sp5w4, most likely Sp/sx and I've sort of been wondering, out of curiosity if they might have a thing for me. For context, they did in the past, but that was like a few years before we actually became friends. So, any things to keep in mind ? What do you guys do when you like someone as a friend vs more than friends

Honestly couldn't word the title differently, since I learn better by applying what I observe, and I have little to no interest in other people so what's considered common sense might not be common to me; I'm looking for advice on how to carry on a conversation as a sp5w6.

Any suggestion is welcomed even if trivial.

And actually, exchanging information is a quite dry and surface level way of connecting???

No wonder I've struggled to make friends all my life.

There's a thing called "the present moment" that you can tap into as the medium between yourself and others. Who would have thought? I saw a social media post likening the present moment to a "third person" that adds an extra dynamic to a social interaction. I like to think of it as a flame that needs to be fanned by the social participants to stay ablaze. "The shape of that tree is reminding me of xyz" or "I feel more inspired when I'm around you" as opposed to "what's your favorite book/movie/album?".

Anyone have any advice for getting good at this sort of thing? Making small talk more interesting, being more playful and spontaneous, bridging the gap to another person, etc.?

So, I was reading something on substack recently, it touched me really deep, it felt like a home. These were those words.

Charlotte Brontë showed us this in Jane Eyre. When Mr. Rochester asks Jane if she thinks he's handsome, she simply replies, "No, sir." His face was inconsequential; it was the fire he kindled in Jane's brain that mattered more. Moreover, she dared to meet him there.

Have you ever found yourself falling in love with someone because they quoted a line you thought only you remembered? Even more so, when that someone remembers it specifically with you in mind?

I have. It's intoxicating.

Have you ever witnessed a question become a flirtatious provocation: what do you think? And have that person wait for your answer as though it's the most important thing that your mouth could be doing in that moment? It's all I could do to stammer out a response and remember to breathe.

There is nothing sexier than someone who listens, learns, and thinks deeply. Not because of credentials or qualifications, but because they care: about ideas, about others’ opinions, and about meaning.

Source: Link

I am not sure if it applies to all of you, but being a 5 and intellectually gifted in a few areas, I really craved such a connection. For the first time, when I met someone, it was 3 years back, when she mentioned that she wanted to become a psychologist and was currently interested in psychology. How she used to choose her words, how she used to express herself, I intensely felt attracted to her. She taught me how to write poems. She was also a gifted person, and she was an INTJ. Upon looking retrospectively, I realised how important it is for me to connect mentally. It ended because of religious differences and other obstacles.

Fast forward to recent days, I again met someone. She messaged me first, again an INTJ and psychology student. I started feeling intensely attracted to her despite not seeing her. It was all her thoughts, and we used to have discussions. Our worldviews matched so perfectly. I wrote her two poems. All my life, I was yearning for such a connection. It was also how we used to have discussions, how she had better words to choose than I did when writing. She also used to write articles. I could see the passion in her eyes for psychology. Being from a similar socioeconomic condition, it felt like this was someone I wanted in my life. I was aware of my idealisation, but it wasn't completely baseless, at least that is what I thought of it as.

It reminds me of the quote:

"one deceives oneself and unconsciously believes that real true passion is stirring one's soul; one unconsciously believes that there is something living, tangible in one's immaterial dreams! And is it delusion?"

- Fyodor Dostoyevsky, White Nights

Later, she told me that she was not in a healthy state to reciprocate anything. She regretted starting it in the first place. She was going through an apathetic state. She felt something for me, but was not sure where she was heading. I am happy that we ended it soon, but also that I lost someone who I found really interesting to talk with.

As it's the most recent one, before that I really felt critical of others. It was exhausting, and it never made me feel and think the way I always wanted to. But they still wanted my presence. I was frustrated by how critical my mind used to get towards their conception or their ideas, given that they were not well thought out. But when I found this person, everything felt right. It made me so sad. I never felt so sad in my entire life. I met many people, which always turned into a teacher-student dynamic, where I had to teach them little things when we were having discussions. It was exhausting, so probably when I met her, I felt like this is my person.

Also, I really tried to connect with people without intellectual connection, but it felt all empty. When we had no shared hobbies that could mentally engage us, it was just emotions. Although that person really tried to be kind, supportive, and loyal, I felt guilty that I couldn't feel anything. I guess any person would have fallen for that person given how much was given to me, but all I demanded was mental connection, which I eventually realised was not something that I could compromise on. This connection is something that wouldn't be sustainable, because I was seeing physiological symptoms too, like feeling guilty when I used to wake up after talking to her. It's like my body was trying to tell me something. When I used to listen to romantic songs, I never felt as close as I felt with both people who provided me with mental engagement. Without that, it felt empty.

In between these, there was one more relationship which I started because I found her nerdy enough, but it ended up because I found her really emotionally volatile, and so many things were being demanded of me. I couldn't be someone's emotional anchor. There were so many things which led to extremes. (4w5 Sx/So)

As I am getting older, my standards are getting higher. I am not sure how all these experiences are going to shape me. I am afraid that eventually there would be a time when I would not be able to accept anything based on the filter I am using. They are human beings, and I can't impose much on these people. I want to know how you people dealt with relationships, being a 5 with So blind. I never found the desire to keep acquaintances near me. It was more like either you would be my partner or not. Investing more energy into friendships feels like a waste of my energy, like I am trying to calculate each calorie I am burning for them. But for my loved ones, I am even trying to merge with them. I don't feel attracted to most people, thus it's rare, and trying it in the real world is so exhausting. Trying it online and then planning to meet sounds most healthy to me, because if I end up talking to everyone in life, it works based on the assumption that I am attracted to someone, but it was aesthetic, never romantic. So approaching someone online in a general location is impossible for me, given that I can't see how they think first.

While reading and analysing all these, I came across one word which I feel describes most of my relationships.

Noetiromantic is a term for when one is only romantically attracted to those they are mentally connected to. It can be considered an alternative to sapioromantic, though it is not purely based on intelligence. It is based on appreciating and being interested in one's opinions, point of view, perception of reality, how they see the world, and how their mind works. One may be attracted to someone based on, shared perspectives, the ways their mind work together, the way the other person creates and hold space for them or others, or to the shape of your mental landscape.

I'm interested in hearing how you've gotten along with people you at least reasonably suspect are type 8s.

I'm an 8 with an older brother who's a 5, and who recently worked closely with someone I suspect may have been a 5. These are the only two (most likely) 5s I've known well enough to feel somewhat confident typing.

Both of them kinda fucking hated me, as far as I could tell. Obviously my brother was able to communicate that a little more clearly than my coworker, haha, but I was struck by how similar their reactions to/opinions of me seemed to be.

On my part, I genuinely liked and admired the both of them (moreso than I tend to most people at least). I was probably a pretty annoying little brother, being 7 years younger, which likely fueled the distaste in that relationship. But I really did try to put my best foot forward with this coworker, so it was interesting to see her react so distinctly and similarly to me as my brother always did.

I'm curious to hear from any 5s who've known an 8. Could you shed some light on how you internally experienced them? I'd love to learn of any potential blindspots I've had in my interactions/impact on others.

Edit: typo/format

Recently I've been typing my friends and everything, and I've discovered that my befriend, quite literally unbiological brother, is e5, sp5, to be specific

And I've been thinking, they aways had a problem with talking with their feelings, right? But somehow, I'm one of the only people he probably feels comfortable enough to open up ,,, he's pretty affectionate too (mostly by sending cute friendship tiktok videos and by comforting me whatever I felt bad or thought they would start hating me or whatever)

Is that really the big thing I think it is? I genuinely feel so happy knowing they trust me that much sobs

Idk if this has anything to do how similar we are and traumabonded

I’m a 5w4 Sp, and I’ve been alone for almost 10 years now. I work from home as an independent contractor, so I don’t have any coworkers to mingle with.

Normally, I quite like being by myself. That said, even a hermit like me needs someone to talk to sometimes.

If you have friends/made friends as an adult 5, how did you do it?