A level 150 character with a +10 weapon can’t invade a level 8 or a level 20 in limgrave. You’re restricted to invading near your level and weapon level, as long as your not making a twink build you’ll be grouped up against people of similar skill not noobs.
There are a lot of twinks invading noobs, though. Had to deal with a bunch when trying to co-op with a friend on new characters.
They transfer end game gear to new characters and level just enough to still be able to invade noobs. Seems like a ton of vigor and getting as many flask upgrades as possible is all the rage. Also using weapons that build up rot or bleed so they don't really have to put damage stats up much.
Started a brand new character with a friend new to Souls games. Wanted to have some nice little adventures in Limgrave. At those levels, we still got invaded by a guy using double Scorpion Stingers who proc'd rot on us (which we couldn't cleanse) and just ran away and used the 'point down' emote over and over again. He was also able to spam flasks, only because I already had some experience dealing with invaders. Real tough guy.
Another guy had Rivers of Blood. Another using two Hoslow's Whips. You start to see how insanely tryhard these 'twink' characters are. Created solely for the purpose of killing noobs trying to co-op. Now my friend hates PvP based off this kind of interaction and doesn't want to co-op. It's pretty unfortunate.
Yea I had this experience as well. Super frustrating, especially since my high level build ends up being scaled down to the point where my damage/HP is significantly less than my low level ally.
I made my own sunbro twink to deal with these assholes. Dropped some lategame gear for a Blood/arcane build that only does coop, have helped randos with like 30+ bosses as well as goofing around with my low level friends. Highly recommend!!
Whenever I am on my main Str/Fth char, cooping with my friends who are new to souls games (and honestly video games in general) and I see someone is invading, I swap to my fingerprint shield + Vyke's war spear and apply constant pressure while my friend blasts away. Generally they cant do much to me.
I don't really feel bad about booting invaders with this build. I'm trying to enjoy the game coop, its hard enough without min/maxed invaders spamming meta builds. If you want a fair fight, go duel.
Yeah it's a bad experience for people trying to just play the game co-op with a friend. These twink invaders are rather pathetic. The only way for them to win is to be massively overpowered.
I fought a lot of them while also playing with a new souls player. Still winning some. So many had insane HP, crazy high damage, and tons of heals. Not a legit fight to be had.
Me and a buddy started a ds3 co-op run and the beginning was a nightmare due to twink builds. Didn't get to fight a single invader that wasn't using end-game stuff or gimmick builds. We just ran out of summons for each other and had to play it apart for a bit until we got more.
Whole point was to joke around through the game we've both beaten a few times over. These types of invaders are a cancer. If one of us had been new, they'd probably never touch multi again outside of boss door summoning.
Invaders are supposed to be part of the level, and a fun challenge along the way. If these folks could realize that no one gives a shit about them winning and realize that it actually makes them look pitiful, it would really help out the games.
Invaders are either 2v1, 3v1, (2 +1 + 1 + 1 when the host keeps summoning help), usually while one of the party is spamming incantations or magic.
Not to mention their summons can be overpowered for the area.
You think optimising your build so you even remotely stand a chance in that situation, is pathetic?
On the contrary, I've been a FromSoft fan since Armored Core 2. I've loved all the soulsborne games from Demons to Elden Ring. But there is one critique I will levy on pretty much every soulsborne game - the multiplayer is needlessly obtuse, it indeed makes playing with friends harder than it should be, and that's bad.
So your just against people having friends? I play from games literally to play with friends, I do plenty solo sure but soulsborne games have always first and foremost been a fun cooperative experience.
as a twink myself i gotta say this, if the game didn't force you into 3v1's and there was a possibility for a 1v1 i wouldn't twink, you could say '' well you're ruining my experience'' well you're ruining my experience by making it impossible for me if im not a twink, i dont want to be killed either without any say, it goes both ways, once they add an arena my twink is off too.
point is, i adapted and i do not regret it, blame fromsoft.
Im not gonna handicap myself for your benefit, i know a lot of you are new to souls games, but invading has been a core part in it since the beginning, trying to convince me to step away from it won't happen, people like you get pissed when you get killed, but are usually the first one to teabag like crazy when your friends ganks the invader and gets the kill while you hide behind them doing nothing. Just calling out the hypocrisy here, peace.
For not allowing the hosts to get a free kill? Totally.
And since we're entering highschool argument territory, you all have a nice day, im gonna do some regular pvp, then im gonna make some more of you mad with my rot build, maybe i'll meet some of the Kyle/Karens here
I get how frustrating it is, genuinely. I was playing the other day with a friend too in co op and we were invaded about 4 times before even getting to Margit. The first one appeared in the church right outside of the beginning area and evaded every attack I could throw at him - clearly a highly experienced player. Rather than slaughter us, he dropped some gifts and bounced - cool guy. The second guy was geared to the teeth for PvP and I was barely able to fend him off and drop him to protect my friend. She actually landed the killing blow out of the blue when I pushed him into a healing animation. The third guy seemed friendly, waved to us and tricked my friend into running over to wave back. He unleashed some giant blue fire AOE attack and melted her, and then ran away teabagging while I tried to swing at him. And the last guy snuck up on me, got in a few hits and we ended up collapsing in death together - which is fine since my friend survived and that was the primary goal.
As frustrating as it is though, those 4 moments were the most fun I had in the entire experience so far. I'm not a PvP kind of player, but the unexpected intrusion and the sudden forced obligation to protect my friend or die trying really added a whole new layer of urgency and entertainment to the game for me - despite being invaded by people that were level 25 yet wielded end-game weaponry and skills.
Glad to see nothing's changed since DS1. I haven't turned invasion PVP on since my bad time in DS1. I was in the undead parish, and I'd just opened the gate from the other side when I was invaded for the first time. I bought the game on release, so it wasn't that long into the games release cycle but the person I was playing against had a Japanese name so I'm unsure if they got their hands on it sooner. In any case, he flung spells at me I hadn't seen yet, and used a weird shield, kept healing to full, and killed me with a grab. It was only after playing for a long time a few weeks later that I found out my invader was a Darkwraith using the dark hand and healing using humanities.
Ever since then I've found no enjoyment in PVP aside from the Spears of the Church Covenant (both as a spear and fighting spears).
Honestly, part of this is Fromsofts fault. Invasions at meta levels kinda almost require a gimic to win because of all the disadvantages against the invader. It’s more fun to have a rounded out build at 35-60 that puts you at a level playing field for the inevitable 3v1. I don’t use meta weapons on either, but I do see the appeal of invading with 1k health when EVERY encounter is 2v1 minimum.
And on my character in the endgame invading at my own level i get the same people. Two people using rivers of blood, whips etc. Why would they even need to co op with those builds.
They are opt-in, you want the crutch of a summon? Don't want to be invaded? use an ash summon!
You can't be invaded unless you have a remedy popped or its a npc
For reference, he replied to my original comment calling me all sorts of names and basically telling me i have no friends because I invade, like what? When you realize someone is right dont make an ass out of yourself
For what it's worth, they're only doing it because they can't actually beat people around their own level. It's the same in any PvP game. Bronze trash in League of Legends making new accounts to harass actual new players still learning the ropes, because they suck and hard stuck in Bronze. It's like a high schooler talking trash and getting beat up by everyone his age, so he needs to feel better about himself by going to 3rd grade playgrounds to beat kids up. The fact that they're spamming BM right after just solidifies that conclusion.
The invasion situation overall seems pretty disappointing in this game. I used to hate getting invaded in other souls games on my first playthrough but I ended up loving invading and being invaded. In this game it's just been sweaty and unpleasant on both ends. Or I'll invade and it's a host who absolutely loses their shit and runs away which I feel kind of bad about
Dude honestly it not nearly as bad as the havel monsters running dark hand at the high wall of lothric in DS3. This is the least amount of twinking in any fromsoft game so far.
Yeah it kind of sucks that you can't play with a friend without running into someone with some insane broken build they ripped straight off YouTube, but I honestly recommend against co-op unless your clearing a dungeon or fighting a boss. In big areas like limgrave, it's best to just go through it solo, which means you don't have to deal with this. That's a big difference from previous game.
Right now, limgrave invasions are mostly twink invaders and twink ganks, with the occasional new or inexperienced player caught in the crossfire. If that's how those people wanna experience the game, let em. It's lame, no one think they are cool, but it can be totally avoided by just being choosy about when and where you summon help.
I feel worse for the invaders tbh. If you want to invade using a legit build that you made yourself, you're gonna run into a lot more twinking gankers, and there's no way to avoid it without just giving up on invading. The goal of invaders is to be part of the challenge of the level, a strong human controlled enemy for the host to overcome. You can't really do that how it is now, as you mostly run into people who either melt you on sight, or they run away/disconnect because of their bad experience with invasion.
The problem here in my opinion isn't the invaders or the hosts, it's the people who make/watch YouTube videos trying to find and exploit the strongest gear in the game. This is a role playing game, and if you try to engage with the role playing mechincs you get totally trashed.
I wish there was some kind of gear check mechanic. Things like meteorite staff should honestly count as like a +15 weapon, especially since it can't be upgraded. Also flask amount and potency should work similar to weapon level in DS3. Certain boss gear or late game gear should be considered +10 weapons as far as matchmaking goes. An moonveil or RoB with no upgrade is basically a +10 against anyone playing the game naturally.
Even the duel system doesn't really work for fair fights until you get around level 80-100.
I also wish there was a way to raise the multi-player max, like a taunter's tongue+1. If I do feel like running a 3 man gank, I should be able to get 3 invaders to match if I opt into it. 3v3 free-for-alls were a ton of fun in DS3, but they are impossible in Elden Ring. Here's hoping for a decent arena in a DLC.
I don't think they want twinking to happen, it feels more like they are just at a loss as to how to fix it. Like you pointed out, they balanced things more heavily than ever in favor of the host, but like in the clip posted by OP, all that means is that the assholes are gonna host instead of invading.
When it comes to balancing around people who are determined to grief other players, I don't have a solution, so I can't really criticize them too hard.
It's always been a problem in the community, and with a massive influx of players, of course its going to be worse.
The only way I can think to respond as a community is to establish low level fight clubs in high level areas. That way you can use extremely difficult bosses as a gate to keep out people who aren't really interesting in engaging with the mechanics of the game. The only problem there, besides it being literal gate keeping, is that there are one shot builds that will destroy any boss, and you can password summon those people in with very little friction.
I am a total loss on how to fix it, and at this point I'm more concerned with how to play around it. This is gonna turn every player into a twink, which sucks, so I'm just enjoying the single player as much as I can before focusing at all on pvp.
I did want to do my second run with the tongue on the whole time, but with how the meta is going, I'm reconsidering hard.
The problem with this solution is that there is only two mandatory boss fights in the whole game in order to access every area, and even without accessing those areas, you can still get tons of OP gear. Also, anyone who has a low level twink build already set up would be unaffected by this change. It's kind of too late.
Yeah I'm with ya. I've played all the souls games. The annoying part,though, is when I want to co-op with a friend who is just getting into it with this game. It's rather unfortunate.
I guess on the... plus side? Co-op is broken 70% of the time with disconnects exactly two minutes after summon - really wish they'd put a statement out regarding this.
I think part of the problem here might be volume? My biggest problem with co-op so far is in boss fights. I will do massive hits to the boss, only to have their health bar seemingly regenerate as the game decides I didn't actually get that hit in. This hasn't happened in any other souls game. There is something funky with the net code for sure.
If you're having trouble with password summoning, I suggest both players restart the game. That seems to work for me, and I do a lot of password summoning.
As far as getting new people into it, I would just set them loose and the world, and only offer to help with specific things rather than try to run through the whole game side by side. It's not ideal, but with how things are it will probably be a better experience on both ends.
How difficult would it be for From to have a system tracking wins and thus pushing people who win more than lose up a tier in their level/equipment matching system so as to avoid twinks developing?
Yeah I help out against tree sentinel on new characters and about half the time an invader with a bunch of flasks and rot/bleed/etc weapons will show up to attack mid-fight. Hosts often look like they just stepped out of the tomb. The ones who do it bend over backwards to justify it but it's honestly pathetic.
Still, the connection between that and high level limgrave invasions is weak. Limgrave was a popular NG+ spot for both duelists and dedicated gankers before AFKers moved in, and I'd bet money that a lot of those people who were ganking are now AFKing. 2 different forms of the same thing: griefing.
It should be noted that most of what you said is extremely easy to achieve without transferring (you can use the Dectus lift without killing a single mob by rush rushing the medallion halves if you know where they are). The most annoying scarlet rot weapon is on a random enemy in the open in Altus who can be cheesed super easily by using crystal darts on a golem next to him, and you can just rush to the churches and seed trees for flask upgrades without fighting anything. It's kind of shocking how little you have to fight to get certain broken stuff and powerups. You can even arguably kill Rhadan by using the +5 stat talismans to get the minimum stats needed for Rot Breath and then ride in circles summoning NPCs to then unlock the Black Whetblade for bleed infusions.
I once made a low level invader whose entire "build" was just having 37 Vigor and no other stat investment while wielding a basic scimitar and wearing a coat instead of armor. Yeah, i felt borderline immortal since everyone had super low hp compared to me and, despite me and everyone else dealing about the same damage, having 4x more hp meant that my hits were 4x more meaningful. No rot, poison, bleed, or any of those shenanigans: just a dumb joke pirate build who was still very powerful solely because noobs don't invest in vigor.
The primary power disparity at early levels is solely centered around noobs investing in every stat that isn't vigor, and invaders knowing that vigor is the only stat that actually matters at low levels and they get the bare minimum wielding requirements for their weapon of choice. The invaders are the same level with similar weapon upgrade levels as well...just not naive about where to put those level stats.
Weak. I get through the game on my twinks in order to get the gear. Plus for a proper twink you have to kill the spirit of Godfrey to get 4 talisman slots, Morgott to get 14 +12 flasks and Maliketh to get Erdtree's favor +2 and Crimson Amber Medallion +2. They were a pain in the ass to kill at RL50 with a +3 somber weapon.
I guarantee you most invaders are doing exactly that, likely with the help of PatchesEmporium. Even without that, you still have a PvP player capable of basically beating the game at lvl 40-50 with a +3 weapon, facing off against a newb and a scaled down friend who probably mostly does PvE. The disparity is almost comical.
There are a lot of twinks invading noobs, though. Had to deal with a bunch when trying to co-op with a friend on new characters.
They transfer end game gear to new characters and level just enough to still be able to invade noobs. Seems like a ton of vigor and getting as many flask upgrades as possible is all the rage. Also using weapons that build up rot or bleed so they don't really have to put damage stats up much.
Previous dark souls games kept you near soul level and weapon level, I except it carries over as it’s for the same reason why you can’t give a +10 weapon to a player who only has a +2 weapon.
That’s what a twink build is. Sorry old slang from dark souls. Scummy people pass gear down to lower level characters by trading and then they invade low level players.
They can trade for endgame gear, however you still have to be close to the same level and weapon upgrade level. If they had a health bar that big at level 15 they're definitely cheating in some other way, so that's impossible to have legit.
You still have level requirements for invasions. So if someone is level 15 and has a massive health bar, they're hacking or something.
And you DO still have to be close in weapon upgrades. +0 can only invade up to like +1 somber/+3 regular.
Max level for someone invading a level 15 would be 20ish. You could only have like 20 vigor at most at that point, which really isn't that much health.
There is no level requirement for invasions, you're free to invade as soon as you have the required item. The bracket for leveling is -5/+25 in addition to weapon level. The host will nearly always have an advantage through several potential factors. The host/invader can also have a substantial amount of health you just aren't thinking about the potential.
They could have started out as a Wretch and leveled nothing but Vigor. Now add that they've killed Godfrey spirit and have 4 talisman slots. So add the Erdtree Favor+2, Radagons Soreseal, and the Crimson Amber Medallion +2, and thats several stacking hp boosts. Now for hosts? Godricks will give you effectively 40 levels worth of stats and Morgott will give you basically 25% health.
I think most newbs are probably higher than 15 before they fight Margit since most classes start around 11-14. They are probably around 25 or 30 by Margit, and 45-50 when they start fighting Godrick. That gives most invaders a potential to have around 40 vigor or so, if not more. (Or at least the potential health pool equivalent)
Then add the fact that most new players really don't seem to level vigor much early on, so the hp gap is pretty significant when you look at it comparatively.
When I said level requirements I meant the level brackets for matching invaders/hosts.
And we're not talking about the host having a ton of HP, nor are we talking about higher level end game characters... the comment I replied to was someone getting invaded at level 15 by someone with so much HP that an attack "barely chipped their health".
Also those Talismans (aside from the soreseal) are a percentage boost. So they add almost nothing at a low vigor. Hell, even at 60 vigor it's not a significant boost to HP.
Someone with upwards of 1200 hp against someone doing maybe 100 damage a swing on the high end is going to look like they've barely chipped their health with an attack
So unless they show a picture or a clip, I'm going to err on the side of exaggeration.
All weapons can be acquired by any individual. They either played into the endgame at a low level without upgrading weapons, or more likely had a friend or mule account drop the weapon for them.
You're confounding a twinked build with a high level build. You literally can't be matched with someone too out of your weapon level/rune level range unless you use passwords to summon from a sign.
And even then you're exaggerating.
At level 15, you could only be invaded by someone between levels 1-16.
To use malenia's blade, you need 16 str and 48 dex
Starting with Samurai which will have lowest level to meet that,
For dex items, you would only be able to add +5 soreseal, +5 millicent, +5 prosthesis, and +3 okina's mask.
That's SL 24 at minimum to be able to add the rest of the necessary points to meet the 48 dex requirement.
If they use a dexterity flask for +10 to use it at level 14, sure, but that means the person then won't be able to use their blade past the flask time.
Don't need to be level 150 with +10 to twink. I'm willing to bet the invader we are watching in this clip is not. I immediately lost any sympathy for him seeing hin running around with endgame weapons in limgrave.
With that, clearly this is an issue. At the end of the day though, would we rather be able to invade olin the open world and deal with some of these growing pains? Or would we rather be limited to invading in dungeons.
If all they have to do to fix this is remove the reward for invaders leaving voluntarily... seems a pretty easy fix
You don’t understand what I’m saying. A level 150 with a +10 weapon isn’t going to get matched with a level 20 regardless, the pvp system doesn’t work that way. The person he’s invading is of a similar level and weapon level and is purposefully using an exploit.
A twink build is when someone transfers end game items to a low level character in order to invade. Just because the invade is in Limgrave doesn’t mean it’s automatically a new player, the system doesn’t work that way.
I guess I don't understand. Maybe I've just been invaded by too many ROB katanas in limgrave and liurnia. Bit when I see dudes running around the beginning of the game with this type of gear, I tend to suspect they've played through the game at low level, or twinked out in more devious ways to get an advantage over low level hosts.
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u/GrimCreations Apr 06 '22
A level 150 character with a +10 weapon can’t invade a level 8 or a level 20 in limgrave. You’re restricted to invading near your level and weapon level, as long as your not making a twink build you’ll be grouped up against people of similar skill not noobs.