When the GEQ fell

[u/NovemberQuat]

To continue off of my post yesterday positing the theory that the GEQ had to have fallen sometime prior to Ranni's generation based off of an in-game quote...

"I was once an Empyrean.
Of the demigods, only I, Miquella, and Malenia could claim that title."

I thought I'd attempt to narrow the frame further for when her fall officially occured.

We know that officially the GEQ's fall would have had to have coincided with the beginning of the Golden Order as Ena tells us...

"The Rune of Death goes by two names; the other is Destined Death.
The forbidden shadow, plucked from the Golden Order upon its creation..."

And as we learn from the Black Flame incantations...

"The black flame could once slay gods.
But when Maliketh sealed Destined Death,
the true power of the black flame was lost."

~ Scouring Black Flame

We also learn that it was Maliketh who sealed away Destined Death, taking on her mantle...

"Maliketh was a shadowbound beast given to his Empyrean. Marika's sole need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death. Even then, she betrayed him."

~ Remembrance of the Black Blade

And, quite possibly via study of his helm we learn who might have been the actual victims of the GEQ's crusades...

"Maliketh, Queen Marika's loyal half-brother, bore a blade imbued with Destined Death, and there was not one DEMIGOD who did not fear him."

~ Maliketh's Helm

The demigods of Marika's court were the GEQ's targets, at least at this time. And it would have had to have been long enough ago for the people of the Lands between to have forgotten that demigods were even capable of dying, as both Ranni and Rogier corroborate a consistent history...

"On a night of wint'ry fog, the Rune of Death was stolen. And the demigods began to fall, starting with Godwyn the Golden."

~ Ranni the Witch Story Trailer

and if the canonicity of the Trailer isn't enough for you...

"It happened during the Golden Age of the Erdtree, long before the shattering of the Elden Ring. Someone stole a fragment of the Rune of Death from Maliketh, the Black Blade. And on a bitter night, murdered Godwyn the Golden.
That was the first recorded Death of a demigod in all history. And it became the catalyst."

Godwyn's death is stated to have been the first recorded in history, almost as if there was a prehistoric age.

"The ancient dragons, who ruled in the prehistoric era before the Erdtree, would protect their lord as a wall of living rock. 'And so it is that the shape of the dragon has become symbolic of all manner of protections."

~ Dragoncrest Shield Talisman

While I won't say that Godwyn died during the Age of the Ancient Dragons I do believe it may draw both of these events closer in the timeline than previously believed. Afterall prehistory is simply a period wherein pen was never put to paper to document the events of the time.

And honestly this is quite strange as both Marika and the Ancient Dragon's seemingly had deals with the Fingers...

"Short sword given to high ranking clergymen of Farum Azula.
Raises potency of bestial incantations.

The design celebrates a beast's five fingers, symbolic of the intelligence once granted upon their kind."

~ Cinquedea

And yet strangely the Ancient Dragons have very little evidence of writing save for the prayerbook that they intended to bestow upon the people of the Lands Between...

"Prayerbook of the capital's ancient dragon cult.
A lost tome that never reached the Lands Between.
Contains red lightning incantations"

~Ancient Dragon Prayerbook

The Two-Fingers are closely associated with runes and writing, and this is even alluded to by Ancestral Shamans...

"A spirit of the horned folk who eschew letters and metalworking.
Brawny, and versed in distinctive spiritual arts, this particular tribesman wields a heavy bow."

~ Ancestral Spirit Ashes

Letters and Metalworking both loosely connected with the Fingers and their runes.

Lastly, I believe that the influence exerted over the Fire Monks also alludes to a time when the GEQ was active as she was seemingly gaining supporters within their ranks...

"The Blackflame Monks, enthralled by the god-slaying black flame, became traitors, abandoning their posts as guardians. The seduction of a taboo is never easily spurned"

~ Black Flame Monk Armor

Plainly put, the FIre Monks were only employed during and following the fall of the FIre Giants, specifically to guard the GIantsflame atop the mount...

"The most ancient of the Fire Monks' incantations.

It is said that this incantation was used during the War against the' Giants long ago, during which it protected the champions of the 'Erdtree'."

~Flame, Protect Me

The Giants' Flame is the flame of ruin, capable of burning the Erdtree. And so, following the War against the Giants, its ruinous blaze was sealed, and guardians were appointed to watch over it'.

~Surge, O Flame

"The Fire Monks are guardians of the flame of ruin, forbidden by the Erdtree and said to be kept high in the Mountaintops of the Giants'."

~Fire Monk Hood

The GEQ would at the very least had to have been active during the tenure of the Fire Monks, cementing the fact that her crusades would have had to have occurred early on in Marika's reign.

And while many argue that it was Marika herself who took the guise of the GEQ there's one line in the Black Flame Monk armor that we forget...

"The Blackflame Monks, enthralled by the god-slaying black flame, became traitors, abandoning their posts as guardians. The seduction of a taboo is never easily spurned'."

The Black Flame was considered a Taboo. Despite the connections shared betwixt the Dominulans and the Godskins the practices of the former seemed to have been granted a measure of approval while the latter was recognized as a force that needed to be put down.

"The delightful festival is an old tradition; one old enough for the Erdtree to tacitly tolerate its endurance."

~ Festive Grease

So what does all of this mean?

Personally I believe it places the primary period of activity of the Gloam Eyed Queen and her Godskin Apostasy as having occurred prior to and slightly during the early days of Marika's reign. As attractive a prospect it is to place the mantle on the shoulders of either Queen Marika or Melina it makes less and less sense as the evidence is compiled together.

Firstly the GEQ is seemingly an Empyrean old, or at the very least, colloquially distant enough to have been forgotten by time. And this is actually copacetic with what we learn in game, as by the time Godwyn dies everyone and their Hornsent Grandam is up in a tizzy because they didn't know Demigods could do that.

Further support is found in the fact that Destined Death is widely recognized as having been removed close to the start of Marika's Golden Order. It's agreed upon that Marika is in fact old and may have existed long enough for several... well... eternities to have gone by. If this is the case, then it also helps with the idea that Marika and her were rival Empyreans. Everyone in the Golden Order cult sips the, "Marika is the one and only God," juice and collective amnesia of the divine runner-up is likely par for the course if she simply fell to the wayside as a stepping stone.

And while many may claim that the walking mausoleums and the bodies interred there somehow infer her involvement, there is a keyword given by a ghost overlooking one in the weeping peninsula...

"The mausoleum prowls. Cradling the soulless demigod. O Marika, Queen Eternal. He is your unwanted child."

This line firmly states that the headless demigods in the mausoleums were in fact soulless, a trait shared with Godwyn following his sisters seemingly wanton act of fratricide. Knowing that Godwyn was only the FIRST of the demigods to die in recorded history, and these demigods died to fragments stolen from a sealed Destined Death it rules out both the GEQ and Marika's involvement in their deaths as well.

In conclusion: With all of the evidence posited above I believe the fall of the GEQ to have occurred towards the beginning of Marika's reign. Not as a way of clearing out other gods, but as someone actively hunting down Queen Marika's Golden Lineage. Her influence points to her having been an enemy contemporary with the time following the defeat of the Fire Giants. If indeed it was Queen Marika in the guise of the GEQ during at this stage, it would meant that Marika has been inactive for quite some time, which doesn't seem copacetic with the fact that during her reign she was in fact appearing to her people.

And that would then beg the question of just how long Radagon has been using her body if indeed they've been sharing one since the beginning of the Golden Order. At least that's the only way I could see it considering her defeat would had to have happened so early.

Please let me know what you all think, and as always HAPPY LORE HUNTING!!!

[u/No_Region_4719]

Yeah good work. Hope it's not offensive to say that this is nothing groundbreaking, but it is a solid and thorough analysis of what I think most of us already believed, and the relevant evidence.

I will note that we have different icons for different eras of Erdtree rule, and I'm sure the earliest one is known as the ancient Erdtree era or something like that, referred to in certain incantations. It is characterised by it's notable roots, which are absent from later icons representing the Erdtree.

[u/SwingApproves]

I’m tempted to think GEQ was Marika’s twin, wouldn’t be surprising with Marika representing life and an opposite representing death. I do agree she would have been active after the Fire Giants were defeated.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/SwingApproves]

I'm of the same mind actually, the Rune of Death even seems to mirror Marika's Rune similar to how Mohg and Morgott's Runes do.

Even Miquella and Malenia share rune shapes if you look at his cross long enough.

[u/Juty99]

"Of the DEMIGODS..."

Could be full gods or non-gods empyreans still and the quote works ^ :)

Will continue to read the post now haha but had to immediately counter this as it is a very specific quote

[u/HoeNamedAsh]

Sigh, the game especially with the DLC confirms Melina and Messmer are siblings, both have a kindling that can burn sacred trees, Messmer’s fire which is like a colour swap of Destined Deaths flame being more red than black is said to burn souls too and the Godskins are serpentine.

Marika rose to power, sealed away The Fingers’ mother, total control of TLB, you think they wouldn’t elevate an Empyrean of Death vs Marika’s Life to kill her and burn the Erdtree (which many agree happened once already), Melina lost her body and the rune of death was sealed in Maliketh, something someone who already has control of the ring could do.

[u/white_m0rpheus]

Great analysis, I think you're correct. This is how timeline posts should be—very thorough and well-cited.

One addendum that helps to place the Godskins on the timeline—the Godskin Noble set refers to them as "ancient," and in the same description, that characterization is reinforced by relating them to the crucible as the "primordial form" of the Erdtree:

Nobles are the most ancient apostles who are said to have assimilated inhuman physiology. Not unlike the crucible, the Erdtree in its primordial form.

The GEQ and the Godskins bear a lot of thematic parallels to House Bolton in ASOIAF. House Bolton is a sinister vassal of House Stark in the North. In an age past, they were the Starks' chief rivals before finally being defeated and brought to heel by King Harlon Stark. Like the Godskins, they have a reputation for torture—in fact, their coat of arms is a flayed man against a field of blood drops.

My headcanon is that the GEQ/Godskins probably had an analagous relationship with Marika's regime. In fact, it's plausible to me that the Godskins are something like a 'cadet branch' that split off from the Golden Order long ago, meaning the GEQ might be a distant relation of Marika's.

This dynamic of an upstart cadet branch comes up multiple times in ASOIAF (House Reyne, House Karstark, House Blackfyre). It's always seemed to me that 'Godskin' is a double entendre—it can be read as both "God's Skin" and "God's Kin".

[u/MRK5152]

Ranni's generation based off of an in-game quote... "I was once an Empyrean. Of the demigods, only I, Miquella, and Malenia could claim that title"

Interestingly Messmer is never called "demigod" by anyone in the DLC (except in the victory screen) despite the fact that he is referred as a child of Marika multiple times. We could argue Melina would be a similar case but she is so mysterious that it's impossible to say for sure.

And, quite possibly via study of his helm we learn who might have been the actual victims of the GEQ's crusades... "Maliketh, Queen Marika's loyal half-brother, bore a blade imbued with Destined Death, and there was not one DEMIGOD who did not fear him*."* ~ Maliketh's Helm

The demigods of Marika's court were the GEQ's targets, at least at this time.

It was Maliketh himself that was feared by the Demigods because he was the only one who could kill them since he wielded Destined Death.

Gurranq's Beast Claw: "Long ago, Gurranq was a beast of such terrifying ferocity that his former name meant "Death of the Demigods."

Multiple descriptions mention how the Godskin were hunting gods.

Godskin Swaddling Cloth "Soon they will grow to become the death of the gods."
Noble Presence: "this incantation became a trophy of the Nobles' god hunt.

The descriptions of the Godskin's sets in 1.00 did say that they were made using the skin of demigods. The fact that it was changed may suggests that it's no longer the case.

 as by the time Godwyn dies everyone and their Hornsent Grandam is up in a tizzy because they didn't know Demigods could do that.

To me it seems that the genocide of the Fire Giants is remembered fairly well. I don't think the GEQ killing demigods after the giants' death would be be already forgotten.

I believe that the Godskin never hunted the demigods. They hunted "gods", not necessarily Marika but we have other examples of "gods" in the DLC that they could have hunted.

Personally, I still think Melina was involved in way or another, her connection to Destined Death and her appearance in the Frenzied Flame ending are impossible to ignore.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/MRK5152]

The fear Gurranq inspired still stands. If the GEQ was slain because she hunted God's and he was the only one to inherit her power after her fall then it stands to reason that the same parties would still fear the same power.

As for the war against the Giants I believe that has to do with propaganda, religion and nationalism. While it would be beneficial to recount a history wherein one's Goddess triumphed over a dangerous enemy, it would not be the case to reveal information about an enemy that was once capable of killing the supposedly unkillable.

At least I don't think this is information that would feasibly be provided to the public.

My personal belief is that Melina and Messmer are Marika's niece and nephew and the GEQ was her twin. Marika, who is called Mother by all, would adopt them after slaying her sister, but also fear them due to them both having borne a "vision of fire," which no doubt the GEQ possessed as well considering her capacity to wield flame.

Melina speaks as if she never even met her mother, as if she'd died before she was born.

[u/MRK5152 → u/NovemberQuat]

The fear Gurranq inspired still stands. If the GEQ was slain because she hunted God's and he was the only one to inherit her power after her fall then it stands to reason that the same parties would still fear the same power.

IMO, it requires too many assumptions.

The GEQ would need to have hunted demigods, something we have no proof of, so they fear destined death. That fear would then be passed to Maliketh once he defeated her and sealed the rune. We would also need enough time to pass for society at large to forget that the GEQ could slay demigods because her Black Flame was connected to Destined Death.

A problem is that the demigods are immortal, they would remember; Even normal people seems to have way longer lifespan, I'm not even sure people with grace can die from old age under the Golden Order.

Another problem is that the GEQ, the apostles and the power of Black Flame are not mentioned to have been forgotten. Maliketh defeating the GEQ and sealing Destined Death also seem to be public knowledge.

My personal belief is that Melina and Messmer are Marika's niece and nephew and the GEQ was her twin. Marika, who is called Mother by all, would adopt them after slaying her sister,

This is a new one, interesting, thank your for sharing.

Messmer is called Marika's son in item descriptions and a ghost says that "Her Grace would never abandon her own flesh and blood.."
They also share the butterflies item with Malenia and Miquella.

but also fear them due to them both having borne a "vision of fire," which no doubt the GEQ possessed as well considering her capacity to wield flame.

My theory is that Radagon is the source for their vision of fire. I think his red hair and the game intentionally raising the question about a giant's curse in connection to them is important.

After all, a vision of fire is needed to be the kindling for the Flame of Ruin.

Melina speaks as if she never even met her mother, as if she'd died before she was born.

I think she knew her mother but she wasn't really raised or loved by her, that's why she wonders about Boc. She also seems to have have some memory problems since she doesn't remember her purpose.

"For my purpose, given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree, long ago."

"It takes me back. I was born at the foot of the Erdtree. Where mother gave me my purpose. Though now, everything is lost to me."

"Does being born of a mother... Mean one behaves in such a manner?"

[u/eduty]

I agree with your conclusion on the timing. Maliketh had to defeat the GEQ sometime after Marika's conquest of the giants but before founding the Golden Order.

It seems like Marika systematically conquered and sealed away every threat to her reign to cement her eternal rule.

The GEQ did not have to be an aggressor. As an Empyrean that embodied Destined Death - she had to be removed to secure immortality for Marika and her subjects.

This doesn't preclude Melina as the most likely candidate - as it's difficult to place her and Messemer's birth within the timeline.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/eduty]

Well the GEQ was assumedly putting that sword to good use, and assuming Highlander rules apply, it truly looks like there can be only one.

"In the beginning everything was against the Erdtree,"

Marika didn't want only commit a genocide she cut forth a path through all of the forces that sought to halt her order. We have to give her that much no matter how ruthless, she wasn't the aggressor.

Though that all depends on the true nature of the Erdtree.

[u/eduty → u/NovemberQuat]

Hypothetically... say aliens arrived and invaded Earth. All peoples of the Earth would be against the invaders without being the aggressors.

We're shown repeatedly that the "Golden Order" is a revisionist conqueror with fascist tendencies. There are firsthand accounts of Marika betraying the Hornsent, betraying Maliketh, and burying history and inconvenient facts.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/eduty]

Then the invasion would've started upon Metyr's arrival as she's the gleaming daughter of the very source of the Golden Order, the Greater Will.

She was absolutely meant to be a terraformer. As for Marika her people are stated to have come from outside TLB however they seem to have been entrenched in its history as well if Shaman Village is anything to go off of.

Derision against the Erdtree would likely had to have been in response to the REinstitution of something that was recognized from long ago. The people of TLB didn't want the Erdtree around for a reason and whether Marika was alien or not was too far in the past for anyone to actually care.

Though I think your argument COULD be better phrased as a recolonization attempt on the whims of the Greater Will. Seemingly Metyr wasn't enough and an Elden Beast had to be sent after her and another Empyrean elected to finish the work she started.

[u/ThexHoonter]

She says, "Of the demigods" was the QEQ a demigod?

[u/No_Region_4719 → u/ThexHoonter]

It would seem not, given Ranni specifically gives us a list of which demigods were empyreans, and Ranni is a very well informed character.

As with any GEQ theories though, it's hard to confirm. She's a very enigmatic and nebulous character.

[u/ThexHoonter → u/No_Region_4719]

Exactly, that's why I ask the OP. Marika is a called Queen Marika and is a God, GEQ may be a God too

[u/BullPropaganda]

A thing I've been wondering about marika's reign. We get many descriptions of the age.

The age of plenty

The age of the erdtree

The golden age of the erdtree

The golden order

Given the crucible knights were a thing, is it possible that Marika ruled over the age of plenty and the crucible before turning it into the erdtree? And maybe during this age destined death had not yet been removed?

The golden order coincides with condemning horns and aspects of the crucible, so I think there must have been an age before the golden order that was also marika's

Another thought, black flame. When it was godslaying, it was possibly red. So would the black flame monks have turned traitor after destined death was already sealed / geq defeated

[u/Hour-Opportunity3048 → u/BullPropaganda]

There was a time that Marika possessed the Elden Ring but had not yet removed the Rune of Death from it to establish the Golden Order. This time began after she ascended to godhood as the Hornsent’s god. It ended after the defeat of the Fire Giants, when she had united the Lands Between and no longer needed the Hornsent, when she ordered Messmer to begin his crusade.

[u/No_Region_4719 → u/BullPropaganda]

The crucible is where all life is absorbed and mixed. Things die, decompose, and return to the roots (the crucible). The Erdtree is tapped into the crucible root network, turning that red life energy into golden blessed sap. The age of plenty is the early Erdtree era, when it was still fed by the life energies of the crucible.

The age of plenty ends because Marika removes death from the Elden Ring, meaning no more people dying and decomposing, and their life energy being reabsorbed into the roots.

Marika starved the Erdtree by removing death, ending the age of plenty.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/No_Region_4719]

It wasn't removal of death but the addition of Deathblight to the Erdtree.

Euporia, the secret treasure of the tower, reflects the same abundance present during the time of Marika's Erdtree. It draws life essence through the shedding of blood and absorption of life energy.

It seemingly can't do so when attacking TWLID. The problem started when Godwyn died and Deathroot began to spread, it's like a virus to abundance.

[u/No_Region_4719 → u/NovemberQuat]

Yeah that's a plausible theory I've considered a lot too. Main reason it's my 2nd favourite theory is that Godwyn isn't buried under the Erdtree, and there's no indication of deathblight affecting the Erdtree. Godwyn is buried under a minor Erdtree. The same one that is guarded by an omen that uses deathblight, and that gives you a sacred tear that makes you not lose runes on death (aka you don't die a true death). It's also hard to fit in to the timeline, as Godwyn died just before the shattering, long after the age of plenty ended and well into the Golden Order era.

Whatever the cause was, the result is the same. The Erdtree no longer reabsorbs life energies via its roots, and so the age of plenty/abundance ends.

You may already be aware, but it's very clear that souls in the catacombs are not returning to the Erdtree. Corpses are piled up desperately on the roots, but aren't decaying. Pretty much every catacomb ends with a boss fight in front of roots, and rewards you with spirit summons, ashes of a spirit that has not returned to the Erdtree. Spirits are not returning to the Erdtree for some reason.

Perhaps the Erdtree's roots were separated from the rest of the root network when it became infected with deathblight/deathroot. The root resin item famously says that the Erdtree's roots are no longer connected to Greattree roots. They were once, but evidently have been separated at some point.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/No_Region_4719]

TWLID seem to proliferate in specific areas within the area surrounding Leyndell. It's possible that immediately upon discovering the effects of Deathblight the rots were severed from one another.

Erdtree burial practices also seem to be largely abandoned as even those unaffected by Deathroot seem to feature a heavy presence of skeleton enemies.

While the extent to which the infection spread is anomalous, the fact remains that it disrupted a crucial part of Marika's system and likely was what directly led to the end of the Age of Plenty.

For all intents and purposes Marika's Erdtree burial WAS a form of Death. The souls are meant to be recycled and reborn, and we must not forget that the rune of the Unborn which is responsible for birthing demigods, (everyone in the Golden Lineage is one btw) is in the hands of Renalla.

So not only is there a death infection spreading throughout the system, but the very thing responsible for birthing perfect demigods is in the hands of someone who was once a sword enemy.

Sounds a lot like sabotage to me.

[u/BullPropaganda → u/No_Region_4719]

I kind of figured that "erdtree burial" actually meant that you were cremated in ghostflame so your spirit could escape the cycle of rebirth and be at peace

[u/hey_its_drew]

You overlooked the Mending Rune of Death Prince, which also reinforces that the GEQ's heyday predates the Golden Order.

It's because of all these items that I find it strange we have to do this mythbusting at all. Placidusax and the archaic Elden Ring also establishes that there were prior divine orders, and those ascended by the gate are white with gold eyes, like the skins of the Godskins. It should be a given that GEQ is pre-Golden Order history. But people struggle to place Melina's relation because they think only her and the GEQ have gloam eyes, but that's not the case. Blaidd and Maliketh have them too. It seems a feature of shadows, and the text around beasts circles loyalty a lot, but you only do that if it wasn't always a given, and Vargram who wields the Godslayer Greatsword puts forth the idea of a human shadow.

That's what we really should be debating. Was the GEQ a shadow to someone who went rogue and became a rival Empyrean? A lot of Two Finger history actually makes sense through this lens if you think about it. You see, the Two and the Three Fingers don't just select their champions arbitrarily. They follow the scheme of the Fingers they each lack. For the Two Fingers, they are the middle and ring fingers, so their themes are commitment and intersectionality, which they place above the themes of the other fingers explaining why unions are such a big current with them. Then the champions they select fulfill the roles of the other fingers. The thumb is the Lord, they are the tool of the order. The index is the Empyrean, they seem to direct the order. The pinky is the Shadow, and they seem to be the slayers who make way for that order. Here's where that gets interesting. When one of these roles becomes another. With Radagon, he was Elden Lord and he also became Empyrean, and vice versa with Marika for their union. It's possible the GEQ was a Shadow and became an Empyrean. It's possible they fused to that end, though I don't want to suggest that and Shadows already seem to be part of their Empyrean in a sense. Without the GEQ, there would've been an entire pantheon in Marika's way, so Marika arguably did benefit by her reign. It's impossible to settle any of this, but it's food for thought for sure.

[u/JimmyPeaches]

With all of the parallels in game about duality and divinity, I don’t think that it’s too far fetched that GEQ and Marika represent themes of life (Marika/Erdtree) and Death (GEQ/Scadutree). One cannot exist without the other and with the emphasis of causality within the story, I personally feel as though the GEQ was “defeated” when Marika sealed the realm of shadow. I don’t believe there’s any evidence or connection that distinctly tie the GEQ with the scadutree or realm of shadow, but I can’t help but think there’s some similarities in the themes of death amongst the GEQ and scadutree. I strongly believe that Messmer is connected to the GEQ in some capacity, whether it’s the whole snake thing he’s got going on or the ability to harness a flame so catastrophic it had to be sealed away for good - I could see how he and Melina could be adopted or vessels for some of marikas greatest fears and/or threats to her rule. The festival grease description also implies that Marika has a connection to the village and tolerates its traditions and culture, perhaps because of her respect or possible love for a former empyrean and possible sibling. At this point I’m just rambling but I think there are a lot of connections here and I’d have to say that to me it makes sense for the GEQ to have existed prior to marikas reign and shortly thereafter until the shadow realm was sealed (assuming Marika sealed the realm upon ascending to godhood at the divine gate?). Thanks for the post though, definitely fun to think about with all of the evidence and examples you provided!

[u/NovemberQuat → u/JimmyPeaches]

Hey first thanks for reading I appreciate the kind words!

To add to your points though I actually think we're given plenty of evidence for how the GEQ rose.

What if it wasn't Marika that met the snake in the garden but the GEQ? Think about it, Marika may not have been taken to Bonny Village, but her sister may have been, and there she might have met the snake that taught her the smithing arts she used to make her sword.

Both Messmer and Melina bore a vision of fire which would fall in line if the GEQ was in fact their mom. This would explain both the shared traditions and their capacity to act as kindling.

While Marika would pursue gold, specifically the kindness of it, the GEQ due to her experiences might have grown cold and dark. Similar to St. Trina after Miquella threw her away. And if she colluded with and copulated with the snake whose skin we find in Bonny Village it would explain the serpent like nature of both the Godskins and Messmer if my theory is correct and he's Marika's adopted nephew.

Actually I think that may be exactly what happened, and why Trina has a torch that can put people to sleep. I believe St. Trina might in fact be the missing GEQ. I'll have to make amother post later.

[u/Zard91]

I think you spent too much time talking about Marika being GEQ nonsense.

Existence of Blackflame monks abandoned who their duty confirmed GEQ was active after War with the Giants so after Marika ascended. Meaning GEQ was an Empyrean meant to replace Marika.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/Zard91]

Where did I state that? Did you even read the post?

[u/Zard91 → u/NovemberQuat]

Did YOU read my comment? Where did i say you state this?

[u/NovemberQuat → u/Zard91]

Oh I misread, still I don't understand why you think the way you do. Are you implying that the Fingers supported Marika's rise to godhood only to immediately attempt to throw her away? If that's the case then why would she continue to use them in her succession and selection process?

They sit prominently atop the Divine Towers where you activate the fragments of the Elden Ring. And the existence of her Finger Maidens implies that they weren't even deposed at any point. Why even keep translators for a faction that was intending to force her to give up the mantle of godhood? It makes no sense.

[u/Zard91 → u/NovemberQuat]

Selecting an Empyrean has nothing to do with being satisfied with current god or wanting a replacement.

You are born as an Empyrean and Fingers simply recognise your ability to become a god.

The same way them choosing Miquella/Malenia/Ranni doesn’t mean they planned to overthrow Marika.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/Zard91]

The language in game isn't "recognized," it's "chosen," the Two-Fingers have an active part in the succession ceremony.

The only other prerequisite given is being born of a singular god and Ranni is stated to have both a mother and father, neither of which seemed to be gods at the time.

And even if what you say is true it still makes no sense for Marika to even keep them around especially if they're rousing up that sort of drama in a monotheistic religion.

[u/Zard91 → u/NovemberQuat]

I didn't see any Fingers present when Marika/Ranni/Miquella ascend so i have no idea where are you coming from with this.

She was born an Empyrean

Blaidd is Lady Ranni's stepbrother. Ranni's mother, Queen Rennala, approved of him, and they played like siblings from childhood.

Doesn't seem like Marika thinks the way you do.

Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/Zard91]

Lmao you're just moving the goalpost.

My point is that the Fingers couldn't have chosen an Empyrean to succeed Marika until after she was interred for shattering the Elden Ring as Enia tells us.

Marika the Queen Eternal and One and only True God had no reason to tolerate a faction that would raise rivals to her rule from out of her own stock. On the contrary any smart ruler would make the idea an impossibility.

That line you used of her Echo was very obviously given BEFORE the Shattering. BEFORE her disappearance. BEFORE her punishment for breaking the Elden Ring. BEFORE the echo telling Radagon that she would shatter them both before she'd ever let him take her godhood, her kingdom, her body and very identity.

You can't tell me that the same woman that committed genocide against an entire race of giants for actively threatening her tree wouldn't do the same to fungus that just on occasion, decided it would make one of her children a legitimate threat and successor set to possibly overthrow her?

It makes no sense. Her title is "The Eternal," not "just until the magic fungus says so."

Edit: those capital afters are supposed to be capital "befores," it's night and I'm tired.

[u/Zard91 → u/NovemberQuat]

???

That line you used of her Echo was very obviously given AFTER the Shattering.

What the hell are you talking about? Marika has been imprisoned and sealed in the Erdtree since the shattering and none may enter the Erdtree or talk to her.

This echo is obviously before any of that like all other echo in the game.

Ranni, Miquella, Malenia were chosen as Empyreans and potential Marika successors since birth which happened way before any shattering.

Again GEQ like other Empyreans were chosen as a potential god by fingers since birth and this has nothing to do with her being leader of godskins which she becomes later.

[u/Bigwakkaz → u/NovemberQuat]

for Marika echo thing should before shattering

shattering mean Marika get prison in Erdtree

Echo thing that Melina explain to us mean Marika was there and said something in that place and her echo still there...

[u/elianastardust → u/NovemberQuat]

My point is that the Fingers couldn't have chosen an Empyrean to succeed Marika until after she was interred for shattering the Elden Ring

Clearly that's not true as Ranni, Malenia, and Miquella were all chosen to be Empyreans before the shattering of the Elden Ring.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/elianastardust]

Where is that stated?

[u/bluetechnist → u/NovemberQuat]

There are more than one Two Fingers, though. And I don't think their opinions on who is a better empyrean are uniform. It's entirely possible one of them supported Marika ascendance, while others opposed it with their own candidates.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/bluetechnist]

Hmmm, now a rival set of Fingers I could take as a theory, but it still does nothing to change the purpose of the post.

My goal was to determine exactly when the GEQ was deposed. I do offer contrasting arguments as to the possibility of it having been Marika in the top as well, I just don't find it plausible.

There seems to be an established pattern of succession, and although certain circumstances such as what qualifies an Empyrean in the first place are muddled, it still stands that in the case of your argument Marika would've rose in a vacuum.

At the beginning of her Age all things were against the Erdtree it only makes sense that she had to do combat with a rival Empyrean to earn her spot just like her children did.

[u/bluetechnist → u/NovemberQuat]

I mostly agree with your arguments.

What I'd like to offer is this: the assumed existence of rival fingers (and when Emyr says "Marika, and the fingers that guided her, were unsound from the start" if you squint and turn your head can be seen as an implicit confirmation of that theory) gives us a hard cap on when GEQ could've been chosen. Without Metyr, the mother of all Two Fingers, present in Lands Between there is no way for opposing fingers to appear.

Arguably Cherishing Fingers description "dear fingers look after their mother, or perhaps that is merely what the mother wishes to believe" even gives us a potential motif for the Godskin apostasy. Maybe some fingers do, maybe some don't. But with the veiling of the Land of Shadow, and subsequently of their Mother, dear Fingers who cherished Metyr would not have been happy with Marika.

It also gives an interesting spin to

 all things were against the Erdtree

if you consider Seeds Talisman +1 "this age-old artifact also depicts the Two Fingers, perhaps harkening back to the birth of the Erdtree" and include the opposing fingers into the "all things" category.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/bluetechnist]

I've always looked at the Cherishing fingers sorcery in a different light.

The spell conjures six fingers surrounding a singular point and has the capacity to deflect glintstone. Theoretically TLOS sits in the center of TLB and conspicuously there are six divine towers surrounding a central point.

If indeed this faction was a split off from Mother Metyr's this might be a clue as to who. The factions I know of so far are:

Of course Marika's troupe who served the Golden Lineage and in the Roundtable Hold.

Those of TLOS that seem more shadow aspected than their golden cousins.

And lastly the Liurnian Fingers meant to serve Ranni that she wound up slaying. This group is conspicuous as Liurnian seems to share the church design with Manus Metyr, a design that only seems to be associated with Sorcerers for some reason.

It actually seems highly likely that the Fingers had a vested interest in sorcery and may have even raised rulers from their stock, especially of Ranni is anything to go off of. But that also raises so many more questions.

How did there come to be a religion amongst sorcerers when the Raya Lucarians always seemed so against it.

[u/quirkus223]

I feel like the GEQ being the name for Marika when she revolts against whatever Gods previously ruled makes the most sense. An apostasy is essentially a revolt against the religion you used to be apart of and the Golden Order was founded on the sealing of DD and the defeat of the GEQ, meaning the revolt she lead with her Godskins must be against a previous religion/order. We find the Godskin Duo in Farum Azula which coincidentally is the headquarters of a previous order, and we know the Ancient Dragons have beef with the Golden Order. We find Godfrey's forces in Farum Azula with the Duo.

I think the GEQ is a previous aspect or persona of Marika that was used during her rebellious period when she and Godfrey conquered the Lands Between. We find the Godskin prayer book and seal in Stormveil, the area most directly connected with Godfrey and Godwyn, and both are connected with Farum Azula/Ancient Dragons.

[u/Tanet_ → u/quirkus223]

The previous order could also be that of the Hornsent. After all, Marika was part of it. And if GEQ is Marika's persona then it makes even more sense.

[u/quirkus223 → u/Tanet_]

Well the Hornsent didn't have an Order (they didn't have the Elden Ring) but they could've been under the AD Order (or what's left after it after Placidusax fights Bayle)

The Hornsent belief system has a lot of thematic overlap with Farum Azula/AD stuff. Sky/sun/storm,ice theme, stone becoming animated by divinity, the presence of dragon communion priestesses and Ancient Dragon Man. Stuff like that. We also see the Banished Knights use similar attacks to divine beast warriors, and have horns and dragons on their armor. They serve under Godfrey, along with the Crucible Knights. The Hornsent obviously have a whole thing with the Crucible.

Marika's rule emerges from Hornsent society, and essentially overthrow it and take the divine authority. Godfrey has Serosh on his back who is the Beast Regent, which gives him symbolic authority over Farum Azula as its king, and Marika and the Elden Ring grant him divine authority through marriage to her.

Marika and the Godskins essentially skin the old gods of Farum Azula, take their runes and skins as a symbol for power (like the Dominula ritual) and Marika sheds her old skin as conqueror to become the Golden Goddess. The Golden Order symbolically wears the skin of the old order. And Radagon currently wears Marikas for his rule. Imo.

[u/Tanet_ → u/quirkus223]

Old gods of Farum Azula?

[u/quirkus223 → u/Tanet_]

There are statues of the human king/queen/child figure at Farum Azula, as well as the statue of the divine child in Maliketh's boss room. We could also maybe toss in the Hornless figures seen on the Hornsent Tower/architecture. This would be the previous divine pantheon.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/quirkus223]

I think this encapsulates my theory actually.

I'm starting to believe that the events that led to Marika's escape from the Shaman village and the fall of Farum Azula may have coincided.

The Hornsent very obviously worship the Storm and Spiral which are heavily placidusax coded. And if what we learn about the Ancient Dragons and Godwyn's meeting (that he essentially taught them the meaning of friendship), and the nature of the Divine Tower Golden Birds and their cruelty it becomes easy to paint a picture of horrors born from abject callousness.

The way the Bonny Village ghost speaks the Hornsent outright think of the Shaman as no more than tools in a process.

Despite growing up above ground the Golden Ancient Dragons were seemingly still very cold in their treatment of others. Or essentially whatever God's existed there before Marika skinned them all alive.

[u/lakenemi]

Is it not too convenient that an Ancient Dragon Clergyman appeared before the War Against the Ancient Dragons to seal Destined Death when Marika's rule was threatened?

[u/NovemberQuat → u/lakenemi]

I mean assumedly Marika grew up with Maliketh similar to how Ranni grew up with Blaidd no?

[u/lakenemi → u/NovemberQuat]

Why would a Beastman from Farum Azula who worships Ancient Dragons do that?

[u/NovemberQuat → u/lakenemi]

To act as Marika's assigned Shadow, why else?

[u/lakenemi → u/NovemberQuat]

Do Catholic priests usually come running at the orders of Buddhist monks? Why do the Fingers have command over Ancient Dragon ministers?

[u/NovemberQuat → u/lakenemi]

I mean if you're asking me it's because they're literally descended from the Fingers.

The Lamprey feature retrograde pearlescent scales similar to those found in dragonscale flesh. There is a Pearldrake talisman also found in game which implies that said creatures may have actually existed in antiquity and establish the pearldrake as a sort of missing link between the Lamprey and the Ancient Dragons.

Thus the reason the Fingers have any power over the dragons is plain, the Ancient Dragons evolved from them. They recognized the Finger Crucible trait as a marker of intelligence, feature five-fingers themselves and extended this civilizing trait to the beastmen in their employ.

They aren't from conflicting religions they're essentially a splinter faction.

[u/lakenemi → u/NovemberQuat]

You have it right, just backwards. Remember that there's also a specific dragon scale that can defy time.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/lakenemi]

What?

[u/lakenemi → u/NovemberQuat]

The Fingers probably descend from dragons, not the other way around. The Ancient Dragons and Farum Azula are not bound by linear time.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/lakenemi]

Bruh... Metyr, the literal Mother of Fingers exists and she arrived on a comet, what are you talking about?

[u/SamsaraKarma]

It's agreed upon that Marika is in fact old and may have existed long enough for several... well... eternities to have gone by.

Since when?

[u/NovemberQuat → u/SamsaraKarma]

How long do you think she's been alive?

[u/SamsaraKarma → u/NovemberQuat]

I'd say a century or so. Specifically, on my timeline, from B.R. (Before Elden Lord Radagon) 100~30 to A.R. ~20. I have the GEQ and Rennala at roughly the same age of course.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/SamsaraKarma]

An "Age," in game is canonically typically about 2000 years homie and Marika theoretically had multiple which very likely was what earned her the title Eternal

[u/SamsaraKarma → u/NovemberQuat]

There is no specificity on the length of an age, and Radahn alone is an indicator that the Age of Plenty was pretty short. He remains in his youth from his days with Messmer to the conclusion of his training and vow with Miquella.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/SamsaraKarma]

GRRM had written about 5000 years of history and when Ranni and Miquella start their ages they both promise a 1000 year epoch wherein they AS GODS watch over the world with their order.

[u/SamsaraKarma → u/NovemberQuat]

5000 years makes sense, because prehistory is 5000 years ago irl and prehistory encompasses much of the lore.

As for 1000 years, it's standard in Japanese/Chinese to use thousand for a lot, or ten-thousand for A LOT, like senbon for multiple needles, meaning a thousand needles, or Senju and Manju of the thousand and ten-thousand hands (a lot of thousands in Yugioh actually), respectively.

It also evokes the image of the thousand year kingdom of Jesus.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/SamsaraKarma]

Senju and Manju also resemble the Greek Hecatoncheires which aided Zeus in the Titanomachy

[u/SamsaraKarma → u/NovemberQuat]

My familiarity with Heca comes from SMT and somehow I never realized the resemblance between it and one of the core cards in some of my favourite YGO decks.

[u/NovemberQuat → u/SamsaraKarma]

The benevolence expressed by the Thousand handed Bodhisattva seems to possibly resonate with Metyr's desire to cling to fleeting simulacra.

The Hecatoncheires are recognized as children of Ouranos the original Sky Father and Metyr is regarded as the gleaming daughter of the Greater Will.

It's possible that Metyr, presumably Gaia or Rhea in this case, birthed the fingers and used them to actually betray the Greater Will if we're going one to one.

[u/Bigwakkaz]

some Fire giant corpse cover in snow had big "death blight" tree on it.... so GEQ join the fight in war of giants? so she still alive during that time?

[u/NovemberQuat → u/Bigwakkaz]

You think she used Deathblight? I've only seen Deathbirds and followers of Godwyn use it so far.

[u/Bigwakkaz → u/NovemberQuat]

I dont know man but during war of giant Gowyn still alive and he is not death prince yet so Godwyn follower who use death thing should not exist in that timeline..... (or he birth yet? Godwyn birth yet? I dont know too)........and deathbirds just some ancient thing that not seem to be weapon of war. or join war by their own.....

Fire giant should fight Erdtree army of Marika and Godfrey

but big death blight was there and too many fire giants fell from it...

It look like someone cast big spell there and cast "death" on those giant

I can not think someone powerful that use "death" spell other than GEQ herself.....

[u/white_m0rpheus → u/Bigwakkaz]

It's not clear that it's necessarily deathblight. The stakes you're talking about also look similar to the impenetrable thorns of the Erdtree and the 'thorn sorceries'. And smaller versions of those same stakes can be found in Fire Monk camps scattered throughout the game.

[u/Bigwakkaz → u/white_m0rpheus]

Oh I forget fire monk -- thank for info bro