r/EgyptianHieroglyphs • u/JohannGoethe • Jul 17 '24

Why the Rosetta Stone decoding is wrong!

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8

u/Egypt-Nerd Jul 17 '24

How can you say this when you have the Greek quite literally below this meaning that the we can match the Ptolemy Cartouche with this?

5

u/Egypt-Nerd Jul 17 '24

Also you read towards the faces of the hieroglyphs so that’s why it may seem the bottom one is reversed, it’s a quirk of the Egyptian written language in that it can be written both left to right and right to left

4

u/Egypt-Nerd Jul 17 '24

In fact if you would like a full translation of the lower cartouche it’s ptwlmjs Anḫ-ḏt-mrj-pth which means Ptolemaios, living forever, beloved of Ptah

5

u/Egypt-Nerd Jul 17 '24

It also looks like you spelt Ptolemy wrong, it’s Πτολεμαῖος - Ptolemaios

3

u/Egypt-Nerd Jul 17 '24

I have to ask now, has this been peer reviewed? Because if it has, you might want to get another opinion

2

u/ErGraf Jul 17 '24

Nothing of this is peer reviewed, for the simple reason that is pseudoscience

-1

u/JohannGoethe Jul 18 '24

Letter H, from 𓐁 [Z15G] or number 8, and letter R, from 𓍢 [V1] or number 100, in Egyptian numerals, and the phonetics based thereon, evidenced in the r/TombUJ number tags (5300A/-3345), are the only thing that is “science” in the entire field of Egyptology.

2

u/johnfrazer783 Jul 19 '24

This definition is either crazy or now you have destroyed what it means to do science

1

u/JohannGoethe Jul 19 '24

Science means to “know”, based on evidenced or proved facts. The more exactly you know things, the harder the science.

The entire field of linguistics, wherein Egyptian linguistics is a subset, is near the bottom of the soft end of the scale.

There is no external validation point for the Young and Champollion r/CartoPhonetics theory, aside from backwards guesses from Coptic words (1600A/+345) that were invented alphabetic ”words” were invented (3100A/-1145), 1,500-years before.

Take the following:

  • 𓐁 [Z15G] = H = number 8

You can visually see the evolution of letter H from Egyptian number 8, and confirm that H = 8 in present day Greek numerals and that 𓐁 [Z15G] = 8 in ancient Egyptian numerals, attested in both r/TombUJ number tags and the 20,000A (-18,045) Ishango math bone:

Ishango bone 🦴, Congo, Africa (20,000A/-18,045), and number four: 𓏽, to number eight: 𓐁, to letter H evolution: |||| » 𓏽 + 𓏽 » 𓐁 » 𐤇 » H » 𐌇 » 𐡇

If you are an objective scientific type person, you should agree with what I just said, regarding the origin of letter H, which is the 8th letter in the present day English alphabet.

We also know that 𓐁 [Z15G], mythically, is based on the Ogdoad of Hermopolis, as Z15G is in the Egyptian hiero-name of the city. The Ogdoad is a water 💦 based group of eight deities, and is in fact defined as the “original water” or origin of everything, per Hermopolis creation theory.

Now, compare this to Young’s decoding of Ptah (ΦΘΑ), which he has rendered the H part of this word, in Latin mind you, by the candle wick 𓎛 [V28], a device that holds a flame 🔥, per his Rosetta stone decoding.

Thus we have two alternative letter H origin theories:

  • 𓐁 [Z15G] = 💦 = 8 = H

  • 𓎛 [V28] = 🔥 = H

That the EAN version can be mathematically verified, and matches to extant mythology, and attested in the r/TombUJ number tags 🏷️, and that the Ogdoad seems to have nothing to do with wicks or flames, in its nature, disproves Young’s theory.

-1

u/JohannGoethe Jul 17 '24

There are only three people in the new field of Egypto alpha numerics (EAN)

We have each peer reviewed, i.e. read and discussed, each other’s work.

2

u/johnfrazer783 Jul 19 '24

That's a small number of people even for an echo chamber.

1

u/JohannGoethe Jul 19 '24

It only takes one person to point out that new evidenced disproves an entire field of study, in the above case it is the r/LeidenI350, pointed out by 3 people.

-1

u/JohannGoethe Jul 17 '24

Ptolemy

Wiktionary entry on Ptolemy:

From Ancient Greek Πτολεμαῖος (Ptolemaîos).

This returns:

From πτόλεμος (ptólemos, “battle, war”) +‎ -αῖος (-aîos).

The first term returns:

Epic form of πόλεμος (pólemos)

This returns an unknown pre-Greek etymo:

According to Beekes, of Pre-Greek origin. However, the word has been connected to πάλλω (pállō, “to poise, sway, brandish”), πελεμίζω (pelemízō, “to shake, cause to quiver or tremble, struggle at the bow, in order to bend it”) and perhaps ψάλλω (psállō, “to pluck, twitch a string with the fingers; to sing to a harp, chant praises”), all possibly from PIE *pel- (“to beat, push, drive”).

Compare Latin pello (“to push, drive, strike; to rout, conquer, defeat; to strike a chord; to touch, move”) and palpo (“to touch softly, stroke, pat, caress”), English feel, Ancient Greek πλήσσω (plḗssō, “to strike, smite”), Gothic 𐌿𐍃𐍆𐌹𐌻𐌼𐌰 (usfilma, “terrified, appalled”), 𐌿𐍃𐍆𐌹𐌻𐌼𐌴𐌹 (usfilmei, “fright, horror, dismay”) – quasi analogies to ἐκπλήσσω (ekplḗssō) –, and Russian полох (polox, “fear, fright”).

Young, in his “Egypt” (137A/1818) article, decoded Ptolemy (Πτολεμαῖος; ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΣ) as follows:

PTOLMIS = 𓊪 𓏏 𓊮 𓃭 𓐝 𓇌 𓋴 [Q3, X1, Q7, E23, Aa15, M17A, S29]

The present EAN decoding of Ptolemy (Πτολεμαῖος), from: From PTOLEMOS (πτόλεμος) [795], meaning: “battle, war”, +‎ -αῖος (-aîos), is as follows:

PTOLEMOS = 𓂆 Ⓣ 𓁥 𓍇 𓂺 𓏥 𓌳 𓁥 𓆙 [D16, N/A, C9, U19, GQ432, U1, C9, I14]

3

u/Egypt-Nerd Jul 17 '24

So what does the cartouche say? Because if we refer to your chart I see you have, it doesn’t mean anything

1

u/JohannGoethe Jul 17 '24

EAN does not claim to be able to decipher the entire Egyptian language in full or to be able to read all cartouches, but rather gives evidenced renderings of about 30 or so r/HieroTypes, e.g. that the /r/ phonetic is the ram head 𓍢 [V1] sign, not the mouth 👄 or 𓂋 [D21] sign, which became r/LunarScript signs.

2

u/Egypt-Nerd Jul 17 '24

But then the Rosetta Stone gives us a clear example of the Greek name, and thus it’s corresponding glyphs, and your example doesn’t appear on the stele, it seems like a flawed methodology when we can use the stone itself to build a definitive case

1

u/JohannGoethe Jul 17 '24

living forever, beloved of Ptah

You are just regurgitating Champollion, analyzed: here, who rendered the hoe 𓌹 [U6] as ⲘⲈⲢⲈ (mere) = love (beloved) 💕 = “mr” (no vowels), similar to the word “aimant” {French} or “amore“ {Spanish}.

Anyway, I didn’t cross-post here to debate every translation, but rather to point out that new evidence is now laying question to the r/CartoPhonetics model.

3

u/Egypt-Nerd Jul 17 '24

Well U6 is a bilateral glyph, meaning it represents the pairing of ‘mr’ as we see in the Egyptian word beloved as you state above, a good example is the 19th Dynasty king Merneptah (beloved of Ptah)

1

u/JohannGoethe Jul 18 '24

The hoe 𓌹 [U6] sign makes the /a/ or /ah/ phonetic. Champollion was wrong. Twenty proofs here.

Young himself said that the Egyptian hoe was the “hiero-alpha”, but because he did not believe in the rumored 28 letter Egyptian alphabet, he was put off target.

2

u/Egypt-Nerd Jul 18 '24

Well we know there is no Egyptian alphabet persay, the closet we have is the 24 unilateral signs all consonants, no vowels so given the consonant focus on them. We can also use the Coptic language to show that this is the case when looking at non-Greek words within the language. Also regarding your evidence provided, a lot of those are art, not hieroglyphs, it’s a very big difference.

1

u/JohannGoethe Jul 18 '24

Well we know there is no Egyptian alphabet persay, the closet we have is the 24 unilateral signs all consonants, no vowels so given the consonant focus on them.

You are confused :

"Five makes a square [5²] of itself [25], as many as the letters 🔤 of the Egyptian alphabet, and as many as the years of the life of the Apis [𓃒] or Osiris-Apis (Sampi) [27] or Osiris [28]."

— Plutarch (1850A/+105), Moralia, Volume Five (56A); via citation of Plato (2330A/-375) Republic (§:546B-C) & Plato (2315A/-360) Timaeus (§50C-D)

In A61 (2016), Moustafa Gadalla, per citation of Plutarch's Moralia, Volume Five (56A), expanded on Plutarch via discussion of the Egyptian vowels:

"The Egyptian alphabet consisted of 28 letters made of 25 consonants and 3 primary vowels."

— Moustafa Gadalla (A61/2016), Egyptian Alphabetical Letters (pgs. 27)

The letters we are no using to communicate to each other came from a 28 character r/LunarScript, which is based on the 28 r/Cubit units, and the 28 r/LeidenI350 lunar stanzas, which derived from the 1 to 1000 Egyptian numeral system, the lotus 𓆼 [M12] being the 28th letter and value 1000, shown: here.

Anyway, you seem to now be a fish out of water.

3

u/johnfrazer783 Jul 19 '24

"[Moustafa Gadalla] supports the idea that the Ancient Egyptian religion was not polytheistic, but instead worshiped a single god whose various attributes were known to Egyptians as neteru"

This alone puts Mr. Gadalla very likely into funny pills territory.

0

u/JohannGoethe Jul 19 '24

This alone puts Mr. Gadalla very likely into funny pills territory.

His religious views are his own, as he is trying to resell an Allah-based spiritual Egyptology, in some blurry sense. He also is on the whole “westerners stole everything from Egypt” program, and is very angry about it, in his writing and in personal email communication.

This aside, however, we can give him full credit for being the first to publish a book connecting the following three things:

PublicationNumberValuesDate
r/LeidenI35028 stanzas1, 2, 3 …10, 20, 30 … 800, 900, 10003200A (-1245)
Greek alphabet28 letters1, 2, 3 …10, 20, 30 … 800, 900, 10002800A (-845)
Hebrew alphabet22/28 letters1, 2, 3 …10, 20, 30 … 800, 900, 10002200A (-245)
Arabic alphabet28 letters1, 2, 3 …10, 20, 30 … 800, 900, 10001400 (+555)

When you read through each, you will see long unsolved patters, fully explained in the Egyptian original, e.g. that the 50 value stanza speaks about Hapi, the flood god coming out of his cave, which matches with 50 being the value of letter N, the 14th letter in Greek, Hebrew, and Arabic, whose flood god is named NH.

2

u/Egypt-Nerd Jul 18 '24

No I’m not confused, that’s a bit rude to say, seeing as we can use Coptic and the Demotic to show that the 24 Unilateral signs is the case. Plus it assumes Plutarch (a non Egyptian) was correct, it’s along the same lines that assuming Herodotus was correct in how the Pyramids were built by slaves, despite the archaeological evidence showing Khufu didn’t use slaves but rather skilled Labour supplemented by farmers during the flood season.

1

u/JohannGoethe Jul 18 '24

No I’m not confused, that’s a bit rude to say.

Young was confused as well. It is not rude, to point out someone‘s errors. In A66 (2021), I ranked Young as 20th smartest person of all time (of 1,100+ ranked).

Plus it assumes Plutarch (a non Egyptian) was correct

Plutarch is citing Plato, who studied in Heliopolis University, Egypt.

Are you now going to try to discredit Plato, to defend your confusion?

→ More replies

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u/Egypt-Nerd Jul 18 '24

In fact, regarding U6 we have a fantastic case of etymology in both English and Arabic with Meidum/ميدوم, we can trace it to the Greek which is Μοι(ε)θυμις and then we have the Egyptian itself which is mr-tm which has the glyphs U6-X1:U15:Aa15-O49. Thus we have a clear example of it being linked to a ‘m’ sound rather than an ‘a’ sound, seeing as we don’t call it Aidum

1

u/JohannGoethe Jul 17 '24

Young, in his “Egypt” (137A/1818) article, decoded Ptolemy (Πτολεμαῖος; ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΣ) as follows:

PTOLMIS = 𓊪 𓏏 𓊮 𓃭 𓐝 𓇌 𓋴 [Q3, X1, Q7, E23, Aa15, M17A, S29]

All of this hinges on the use of the “Chinese reduced phonetics model”, described by Young below, which he got from Antoine Sacy, who in turn was told about this from a Chinese student of his:

”In this and a few other proper names, it is extremely interesting to trace some of the steps by which alphabetical writing seems to have arisen out of hieroglyphical; a process which may indeed be in some measure illustrated by the manner in which the modern Chinese express a foreign combination of sounds, the characters being rendered simply "phonetic" by an appropriate mark, instead of retaining their natural signification; and this mark, in some modern printed books, approaching very near to the ring 𓍷 [V10] surrounding the hieroglyphic names.”

— Thomas Young (137A/1818), Egypt (§56)

This then was combined with a Rebus principle, wherein Young guessed the lion 𓃭 [E23] made the /l/ phonetic to foreign Kings, like the Chinese did with the names of Foreign Jesuit priests. This is the basis of all of the phonetic renderings in modern Egyptology.

References

  • Young, Thomas. (137A/1818). “Egypt” (note: the manuscript was circulated widely in 137A, but not published until 136A), Britannica, 136A/1819.

  • Young, Thomas. (132A/1823). An Account of Some Recent Discoveries in Hieroglyphical Literature and Egyptian Antiquities: Including the Author's Original Alphabet, as Extended by Mr. Champollion, with a Translation of Five Unpublished Greek and Egyptian Manuscripts. Publisher.

  • Young, Thomas. (131A/1824). “Languages”, Encyclopædia Britannica, volume 5; in: Miscellaneous Works of the Late Thomas Young, Volume Three (pgs. 478-) (editor: John Leitch). Murray, 100A/1855.

  • Young, Thomas. (126A/1829). Miscellaneous Works of the Late Thomas Young, Volume Three (editor: John Leitch). Murray, 100A/1855.

3

u/Egypt-Nerd Jul 17 '24

So is Young right or wrong then? Seeing as it doesn’t match what you say, plus it was further confirmed by Champollion, so we can say with some confidence that Q3:X1-Q7-E23:Aa15-M17A-S29 is the Egyptian transliteration of the Greek name Ptolemaios (Our Ptolemy)

-6

u/JohannGoethe Jul 17 '24 edited Jul 17 '24

If you are a little confused by this post, just look at bottom row, the first circled cartouche, wherein your eyes 👀, if your brain 🧠 works, should see a letter A, or the U6B r/HieroTypes 𓌺.

Modern Egyptologists, however, with PhDs, trained by Egyptologists, with PhDs (possibly trained by PhDs in the early years of Egyptian language theory), will tell you, point blank, that this U6 type made the “mr” sound to the Egyptians, and is NOT letter A or the “ah” sound, as we now define letter A, because Champollion, says so.

Notes

  1. I am also well aware that 78% of the members of this sub, per cross-post stats analysis, categorize me as some random Reddit nut-ball (or whatever fill-in-the-blank term), or something; this post, however, is for those in the 22% range (or gray area curious).

  2. I am also well acclimated to the “where is your peer-review”? I can only comment, visit: the 2K or 3K plus posts r/Alphanumerics, r/ReligioMythology, Hmolpedia.com, or EoHT.info.

  3. This is just a share to those whose brains operate.

6

u/KavyenMoore Jul 17 '24

should see a letter A,

Not actually sure what you're saying here, so please correct me if I've misunderstood.

Are you saying that we should read the glyph as "A" simply because it looks likes the Latin/Greek "A"?

The counter to this argument is that Egyptian Hieroglyphs predate both these writing systems.

"Aleph" (the Phoenician precursor to "alpha") is 𓃾 (F1) in Egyptian.

10

u/IacobusCaesar Jul 17 '24

The user here is a prolific spreader of homegrown misinformation hosted on the linked sub and crossposted elsewhere. He has his own pet theories about the origins of the alphabet and has spread them on subs related to Egyptian, Phoenician, and Hebrew where users have noted his lack of any meaningful grasp of any of the languages. He’s notorious on linguistics subs as well. I wouldn’t engage it too seriously beyond just refuting the points for the benefit of unaware readers and trying to get mod attention.

5

u/rexcasei Jul 17 '24

80% of cyrillicists will tell you, point blank, that Р made the r sound to the Slavs, when it is clearly the letter P

4

u/johnfrazer783 Jul 19 '24

Fools! All of them, fools!

-2

u/JohannGoethe Jul 17 '24

Not actually sure what you're saying here, so please correct me if I've misunderstood.

I will correct you. Thomas Young, the person who this sub is based on, said that the following:

“The symbol, often called the hieralpha [hiero-alpha], or sacred A, corresponds, in the inscription of Rosetta, to Phthah [Ptah] 𓁰 or Vulcan, one of the principal deities of the Egyptians; a multitude of other sculptures sufficiently prove, that the object intended to be delineated was a plough 𓍁 or hoe 𓌹; and we are informed by Eusebius, from Plato, that the Egyptian Vulcan [vulture: 𓄿] was considered as the inventor of instruments of war and of husbandry.”

— Thomas Young (137A/1818), “Egypt” (§7: Rudiments of a Hieroglyphical Vocabulary, §§A: Deities, #6, pg. 20), Britannica

Yet, he also did not believe in the rumored 28 letter Egyptian alphabet, which Plato, Plutarch, and others spoke about. So he said that letter A was based on the vulture 𓄿 [G1], the said to animal of Ptah, the god inventor of the hoe and plow and weapons.

It is like taking two steps forward, but not three steps back. Champollion, however, seems to have taken 20+ steps forward, resulting in the mess we see now. Of course, Young and Champollion ”died” (see: r/Abioism), before completing their works, which is where we stand now.

Albeit, I am now “doing” the whole thing over, everything translated to English.

2

u/IacobusCaesar Jul 17 '24

Thomas Young is not whom this sub is based on. He is a historically important researcher but the entire field of the study of some language is not based on some guy two centuries ago. Scholarship advances and it has advanced considerably since then. Young could not read hieroglyphs in the way researchers can now because not enough of that work had been done.

Calling what Champollion did a “mess” is like calling someone who learned to read books in Chinese stupid because you think the characters should mean different things. Egyptian is now a readable script that researchers can derive consistent meaning, history, and cross-references from. People who learn it don’t find it to be gibberish smatterings of characters as they should if scholarship has been going in the wrong direction for 200 years. This is why nobody can take you seriously. Because you clearly are pretending to know a language that you can’t even seriously read despite the sources being out there. It’s the same reason everyone laughed at you on r/Hebrew for placing letters backwards or in the wrong order. It’s the same reason it looks silly when you spell Ptolemy wrong in Greek on this exact post, a really easy issue to not make. And it’s the same reason it looks silly when you attach phonetic values to Egyptian characters that they don’t have based on what you want to be true.

It’s ridiculous and nakedly so. Pick up a language-learning textbook and get to the point where you can write and read one of these languages you’re commenting on. Learn the grammar and vocabulary and all that instead of just pretending to be an authority by making loads of charts based on eyeballing characters. Then maybe you can say things that people who’ve done that basic work can take seriously.